Pro life murder

Handsome Bob · 01-06-2009 02:37PM

Terry wrote: »

Where would the world be without the Christians preaching against death and then rejoicing about a murder in the same breath?

None of you see the hypocricy? No?
You're all happy that this man is dead while your Christian ethos tells you that murder is wrong?

How many people have actually said they are rejoicing? Look over this thread again and you'll see maybe two, three tops said something along the lines of "I won't be shedding any tears for him." Bear in mind please that Seanybiker and AARRRGH are non-believers. So it is hardly fair making a general and sweeping statement about "the Christians" rejoicing at this doctor's murder. They are not "all" happy that this man is dead.

Benhonan · 01-06-2009 02:37PM

Antagonistic smiley faces, my favourite. If you're gonna try to make sociological comparisons, it's hardly likely that Jesus (who loves all and abhors hatred etc etc) would have explicitly condoned the fact that God hates homosexuals, or that it is an abomination for women to dress in the clothes of a man, yet the bible explicitly states both those things. I don't have the exact citations (I hate reading that pile of bigoted, hateful hypocrital pap) but they're categorically stated, I have read them. So how can you claim the bible is so important when it fundamentally contradicts Jesus' teachings, also in the Old Testament attitudes towards revenge etc.

edit: ok that was off-topic, but it annoys me when Christians seem confident to assert that Jesus was pro-life. It's up there with "God told me to invade Iraq".

AARRRGH · 01-06-2009 02:40PM

thebman wrote: »

lol, that is completely irrelevant.

The guy was found not guilty of breaking the state laws in every case that actually managed to get to court. Everything else is irrelevant. He is a law abiding citizen that has been murdered for doing his job and trying as he saw it to help the community.

If your arguing that we should all go around murdering people who don't have the same morales as us regardless of whether it breaks the law or not, I disagree.

Nobody should be cheering this guys death or trying to claim that it is justified IMO. It is murder by a fanatic IMO.

I don't have a problem with late term abortions if the woman's life is in danger. The problem is a lot of people (I'm reading a couple of other forums) have this sort of belief -

I'm not just pro-choice, I'm PRO-ABORTION. I'm tired of the watering down and the splitting of hairs when it comes to defending women. I don't give a damn when she wants to abort or for what reason. It's none of my business or yours.

They believe late term abortion is fine for non-medical reasons. Obviously they are a bit confused about women's rights, because you can have women's rights without allowing late term abortions for non-medical reasons.

phic · 01-06-2009 02:40PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

You do understand always always doesn't mean always?

Actually no, I have no idea what that's supposedd to mean? elaborate please?

Terry · 01-06-2009 02:41PM

LZ5by5 wrote: »

How many people have actually said they are rejoicing? Look over this thread again and you'll see maybe two, three tops said something along the lines of "I won't be shedding any tears for him." Bear in mind please that Seanybiker and AARRRGH are non-believers. So it is hardly fair making a general and sweeping statement about "the Christians" rejoicing at this doctor's murder. They are not "all" happy that this man is dead.

Who said I was talking about people in this thread?
There are hundreds of millions of Christians all across the globe.

AARRRGH · 01-06-2009 02:41PM

Terry wrote: »

Who killed babies?

You can pretend a 7 month old unborn child isn't an unborn baby, just like you can pretend "aborting" is not the same as "killing".

Humans are good at mass denial...

philologos · 01-06-2009 02:44PM

Terry wrote: »

How do you know that Jesus was against it if it's not mentioned?

That's exactly the reason I doubt that he was for abortion. If Jesus was interested in reforming the Jewish understanding on anything, he cites the verse in the Torah and gives His judgement on it. Read from Matthew 5 - 7 for evidence of this. Where Jesus did not mention anything it was to be regarded as it was previously.

The Bible clearly says that God has formed a child from within the womb, God has a plan for all the unborn. Should you terminate one of the unborn you are dismissing God's plan for that child and God's creation.

Isaiah 44:2 wrote:

Thus says the Lord who made you,
who formed you in the womb and will help you:
Do not fear, O Jacob my servant,
Jeshurun whom I have chosen.

Jeremiah 2:5 wrote:

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet to the nations.’

Psalm 139:13 wrote:

For it was you who formed my inward parts;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.

The pro-life case in the Bible is rather strong. The unborn are equal to us, and they are considered as human beings in all of those three contexts. Not only as human beings, but human beings for whom there is a purpose.

Terry wrote: »

How do you know that he didn't get Mary Magdalene pregnant only for her to decide to have an abortion and for Jesus to give his support to her

The historical accounts seem to suggest otherwise, both religious and secular on the issue. The Da Vinci Code could be true, but it's very unlikely, hence why it is in the "Fiction" section of the bookshop.

Terry wrote: »

I know it's not mentioned in the bible, but neither is abortion, so you cannot say for sure that Jesus was against abortion.

Life in the womb is.

Terry wrote: »

It's your opinion that he was against it, but it's mine that he was all for it.
Yes, you read it right. I'm saying that Jesus was pro-choice.

I doubt you really care about what Jesus taught anyway given that you don't believe in His truth.

Terry wrote: »

Medical science didn't really exist in his time, so he couldn't have had much knowledge about foetii. If he did, I'm sure he would have specifically mentioned it.
I'm sure God himself would have mentioned it to Moses too, but I see absolutely no mention of it in either the bible or the koran.

The Bible does several times, see above.

Handsome Bob · 01-06-2009 02:46PM

Terry wrote: »

Who said I was talking about people in this thread?
There are hundreds of millions of Christians all across the globe.

My apologies so. I assumed that you were referring to people in this thread when you said;

Terry wrote: »

You're all happy that this man is dead while your Christian ethos tells you that murder is wrong?

Terry · 01-06-2009 02:53PM

LZ5by5 wrote: »

My apologies so. I assumed that you were referring to people in this thread when you said;

The rejoicing Christian reading that post would realise that it was directed at them.
Had i wanted to direct it specifically at anyone on this thread, then I would have quoted their post.

Jakkass, I still don't see any mention of abortion.
All I see is you spinning it just like I did with that commandment about coveting stuff.

Benhonan · 01-06-2009 02:54PM

God creates life in the womb yeah? Sounds like another example of the Church subtly undermining women yet again, shock horror. At what point does this plan of God's take effect? is it when the man ejaculates, does he guide the little swimmers up the fallopian tubes? Or is it when the blastocyst implants, before it's just a floating speck? Or is he thinking further in advance (given that he is omniscient) does it begin when the rohypnol begins to take effect in the woman's drink and her rapist first begins bundling her into his car? Or does he encourage men to have that extra drink and hence not put on the condom, or a woman to forget her pill? Fear of interfering with God's plan can never be an excuse for anything, because his track record shows that his plan is just terrible really.

IvyTheTerrible · 01-06-2009 02:54PM

I really don't think it makes a difference if you believe abortion is wrong or not, this guy did not have the right to kill the doctor. And if you believe in heaven and hell, the shooter will be going to hell anyway.

We can't decide who lives or dies just like that /me snaps fingers

philologos · 01-06-2009 03:02PM

Benhonan wrote: »

God creates life in the womb yeah? Sounds like another example of the Church subtly undermining women yet again, shock horror.

All three of the texts I cited were from the Jewish Tanakh. Hence the Church wasn't even in existence when they were written

Benhonan wrote: »

At what point does this plan of God's take effect? is it when the man ejaculates, does he guide the little swimmers up the fallopian tubes? Or is it when the blastocyst implants, before it's just a floating speck?

How about the growth process from the embryonic stage to birth?

Benhonan wrote: »

Or is he thinking further in advance (given that he is omniscient) does it begin when the rohypnol begins to take effect in the woman's drink and her rapist first begins bundling her into his car?

This is ridiculous, nobody was talking about rape. However, I do consider all foetuses to be equal to humanity no matter what circumstances they arose in.

Benhonan wrote: »

Or does he encourage men to have that extra drink and hence not put on the condom, or a woman to forget her pill?

Mere carelessness on both parts.

Benhonan wrote: »

Fear of interfering with God's plan can never be an excuse for anything, because his track record shows that his plan is just terrible really.

That's your view. I obviously differ

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

We can't decide who lives or dies just like that /me snaps fingers

That's really interesting. If people took that to heart the world would be a much better place. Both in respect to killing someone, and abortion.

thebman · 01-06-2009 03:05PM

Benhonan wrote: »

God creates life in the womb yeah? Sounds like another example of the Church subtly undermining women yet again, shock horror. At what point does this plan of God's take effect? is it when the man ejaculates, does he guide the little swimmers up the fallopian tubes? Or is it when the blastocyst implants, before it's just a floating speck? Or is he thinking further in advance (given that he is omniscient) does it begin when the rohypnol begins to take effect in the woman's drink and her rapist first begins bundling her into his car? Or does he encourage men to have that extra drink and hence not put on the condom, or a woman to forget her pill? Fear of interfering with God's plan can never be an excuse for anything, because his track record shows that his plan is just terrible really.

non-existant might be a better way to describe it :P

I'll quote sunny again, good example of how people only obey the rules that suit them.

# Dee: (to Charlie) Did you use birth control?
Mac: (shaking his head) Whoa, Dee. We went to Catholic school, so...
Dee: Okay, so, you're allowed to have premarital sex, but you're not allowed to use birth control?
Charlie: I just wish I could go back in time and do the right thing.
Dee: You mean be there for her?
Charlie: No I mean get her an abortion.
# Dee: (to Charlie) So, you're not allowed to use birth control, but abortions are no problem?
Charlie: Well now your just a word genius making me look bad.

Dennis the Stone · 01-06-2009 03:16PM

Benhonan wrote: »

God creates life in the womb yeah? Sounds like another example of the Church subtly undermining women yet again, shock horror. At what point does this plan of God's take effect? is it when the man ejaculates, does he guide the little swimmers up the fallopian tubes? Or is it when the blastocyst implants, before it's just a floating speck? Or is he thinking further in advance (given that he is omniscient) does it begin when the rohypnol begins to take effect in the woman's drink and her rapist first begins bundling her into his car? Or does he encourage men to have that extra drink and hence not put on the condom, or a woman to forget her pill? Fear of interfering with God's plan can never be an excuse for anything, because his track record shows that his plan is just terrible really.

Haven't you heard the GOOD NEWS? God IS every sperm, or something. Every time you rub one out, God dies a million times. That's why I masturbate so much: I'm trying to kill God.

God is the way, the truth and the life: Book of Cornelius
For verily I say, come unto a rubber and I will not allow you to come unto me: Book of Chuckle Brothers

Now off I go to gather a load of teddies together and slit all of their throats. Why do they have to be such sluts Lord? I will cleanse them with the holy spirit PRAIIISE HIIIMM!!!!

Overheal · 01-06-2009 06:06PM

walshb wrote: »

Surely after all the previous crap and attempts on his life, he would have said "enough is enough, this crap aint worth my life."

He had to be aware that there were whack jobs out to do him harm.

Feck sake, 67 years of age and he's putting himself in so much danger.
A man at that age should have been retired and enjoying the rest of
his life

Because the Shooter at 51 should not have been thinking "This crap aint worth the rest of my life?"

Perhaps he did it because he believed strongly in Pro Choice? Activists tend to drive their cause beyond their own personal safety.

Terry wrote: »

No miniature American flags then?

http://hastings.house.gov/media/gallery/flag.jpg

Abigayle wrote: »

I'm not sure he saw the irony. He treated women for late-term abortions, and as someone who is for abortion (early term only) I find it pretty sickening.

What I can't understand is why a woman would carry a baby close to term then decide she doesn't want it!?

Some birth defects and deformities, diseases and other complications are not so easily identified early in the development of a fetus. You also have to account for malpractice, either in misdiagnoses of the fetus health or in side effects caused by medications/substances/activities taken by the mother during the pregnancy.

Im sure there are more than a few genuine cases that were not just "Im gonna name him billy and his room is gonna be blue and he's gonna have a puppy named larry and - you know what, nevermind."

nacho libre · 01-06-2009 06:19PM

Jakkass wrote: »

This is highly irrelevant. Whether this guy was the nastiest man alive or not is clearly not the point, the point is it's hardly pro-life to shoot someone outside a church of all places for carrying out abortions. Certainly this man should have been brought to justice for his illegal abortions but shooting someone dead in a vigilante style killing isn't an effective way to deal with it.

what about the christian pilot who drops his bombs over a populated city in the belief that he doing god's work to rid the world of a dictator yet in doing so he kills innocent people who might have just come out of a church? this man obviously felt he was carrying out god's work to protect the innocent from a person he viewed as a mass murderer. by his logic it was actually the effective way to deal with it because this man was not guilty of carrying out illegal abortions, according to the state, therefore he was free to continue carrying out late-term abortions.
i'm just curious how you can be sure he was wrong. to some christians in america his killer will be a hero. to you he is not. what if god actually agrees with them not you.

if he conducted any late term abortion because the unborn was interfering with the woman's social life that's disgraceful. however, it still doesn't excuse his murder in my opinion.

walshb · 01-06-2009 06:22PM

This victim wasn't some young up and coming doctor trying to make
a few bob and a name for himself, he was 67 and had surely made enough, done enough and helped enough. He had threats previously and he honestly must have had some sort of death wish. He knew the massive risks posed by these whack jobs ad still at such a late stage in his life, he risked so much.

I wonder does he have a wife, children and grandchildren, becaue if so, his actions to continue putting his life at risk was for nothing! All he has done is left those behind, most likely suffering!

Overheal · 01-06-2009 06:26PM

walshb wrote: »

This victim wasn't some young up and cming doctor trying to make
a few bob and a name for himself, he was 67 and had surely made enough, done enough and helped enough. He had threats previously and he honestly must have had some sort of death wish. He knew the massive risks posed by these whack jobs ad still at such a late stage in his life, he risked so much.

I wonder does he have a wife, children and grandchildren, becaue if so, his actions to continue putting his life at risk was for nothing! All he has done is left those behind, most likely suffering!

Again, if you believe strongly enough in what you are doing, little things like previously getting shot are not going to stop you from carrying on.

thebman · 01-06-2009 06:27PM

nacho libre wrote: »

i'm just curious how you can be sure he was wrong. to some christians in america his killer will be a hero. to you he is not. what if god actually agrees with them not you.

He was wrong because he broke the law and murdered a law abiding citizen.

If he wants to live in a Christian run state, I suggest he moves to the Vatican or some other country that lets the church decide its laws.

This isn't the case so he was wrong. He can practice what he likes but he has no right to force his views on others let along murder those that don't agree with him.

So I guess you can justify Muslim extremism too using the same logic. Just so you know, I think its flawed.

walshb · 01-06-2009 06:32PM

Overheal wrote: »

Again, if you believe strongly enough in what you are doing, little things like previously getting shot are not going to stop you from carrying on.

Yeah, well, his desire and passion cost him his freaking life and tomorrow, the world will have fogotten and moved on. And at 67, for what exactly? Those last few abortions?:rolleyes:

Maybe, just maybe the man just couldn't turn down the money and was driven by greed?

You say getting shot and being targeted for execution is a "little thing?"

Okay, what about his family? Would their feelings and hurt not
have made him think hard? Assuming he had a family!

nacho libre · 01-06-2009 06:37PM

thebman wrote: »

He was wrong because he broke the law and murdered a law abiding citizen.

If he wants to live in a Christian run state, I suggest he moves to the Vatican or some other country that lets the church decide its laws.

This isn't the case so he was wrong. He can practice what he likes but he has no right to force his views on others let along murder those that don't agree with him.

So I guess you can justify Muslim extremism too using the same logic. Just so you know, I think its flawed.

what about the christian fighter pilot who believes he is doing god's work and spreading democracy forcefully?
are you of the view that because something is legal/has been given state sanction, therefore it is always morally acceptable. if so i think that's flawed too.

thebman · 01-06-2009 06:39PM

walshb wrote: »

Yeah, well, his desire and passion cost him his freaking life and tomorrow, the world will have fogotten and moved on. And at 67, for what exactly? Those last few abortions?:rolleyes:

Maybe, just maybe the man just couldn't turn down the money and was driven by greed?

You say getting shot and being targeted for execution is a "little thing?"

Okay, what about his family? Would their feelings and hurt not
have made him thnk hard? Assuming he had a family!

Funny, I'd say a crazy fanatic cost him his life not his desire to keep doing his job.

walshb · 01-06-2009 06:41PM

thebman wrote: »

Funny, I'd say a crazy fanatic cost him his life not his desire to keep doing his job.

Hey, that's pretty obvious and the world is just full of scum, but why risk your life for this obvious scum threat?

Hey, Guerin did the same and look what happeneed to her and what the feck did she achieve? The CAB? Gimme a break! She, like this man, knew the danger and still kept it up. For what? They both leave poor people and suffering people behind, all for what?

thebman · 01-06-2009 06:43PM

nacho libre wrote: »

what about the christian fighter pilot who believes he is doing god's work and spreading democracy forcefully?
are you of the view that because something is legal/has been given state sanction, therefore it is always morally acceptable. if so i think that's flawed too.

WTF is a real Christian doing in a fighter jet?

Silly hypothetical would never happen.

He's obviously not Christian if he's in a fighter jet. He may think he is and he may go to church etc.. but he's not obeying the rules of his religion so he isn't Christian.

I'm saying people shouldn't take the law into their own hands. There are peaceful ways to lobby for change in laws if you believe they are wrong.

galwayrush · 01-06-2009 06:44PM

I don't believe too many women were forced to have their abortions by the doctor.:rolleyes:

thebman · 01-06-2009 06:47PM

walshb wrote: »

Hey, that's pretty obvious and the world is just full of scum, but why risk your life for this obvious scum threat?

Hey, Guerin did the same and look what happeneed to her and what the feck did she achieve? The CAB? Gimme a break! She, like this man, knew the danger and still kept it up. For what? They both leave poor people and suffering people behind, all for what?

So people should not live their lives in case crazy people attack them?

Nobody should go out in Dublin on a Saturday night so.

I don't know if it was believe in a cause of money that drove him to continue practicing, I just know he had the right to do so under the laws of the state and some crazy loon decided he was going to end his life because he didn't like his job.

I don't like bookies, not going to murder them.

Overheal · 01-06-2009 07:00PM

walshb wrote: »

Maybe, just maybe the man just couldn't turn down the money and was driven by greed?

You're assuming he did it for greed or Capitalism as much as I'm presuming he did it out of a sense of belief.

I just lean more towards belief. Why? Well again, I mean, you're right, if I was just in it for the money I would probably cash out when I got shot the first time. But this guy did not. And like you say, he had a family that he would be leaving behind and potentially putting at risk.

From that I am presuming there was more than a monetary motivation here.

thebman wrote: »

WTF is a real Christian doing in a fighter jet?

Silly hypothetical would never happen.

He's obviously not Christian if he's in a fighter jet. He may think he is and he may go to church etc.. but he's not obeying the rules of his religion so he isn't Christian.

I'm saying people shouldn't take the law into their own hands. There are peaceful ways to lobby for change in laws if you believe they are wrong.

You can explain that to the USAF then.... and the US Army. And the Marines. And the Navy. And pretty much everyone in the Military who describes themself as a Christian yet takes up a weapon. Because I am sure beyond a shadow of a doubt: it happens.

Manic Moran · 01-06-2009 07:04PM

Not just US military. Any military from a predominantly Christian country.

The true meaning of 'thou shalt not kill' has been rather hotly contested, with no small amount of argument saying that the religion teaches it to mean 'thou shalt not kill without damned good reason'

NTM

walshb · 01-06-2009 07:06PM

thebman wrote: »

So people should not live their lives in case crazy people attack them?

Nobody should go out in Dublin on a Saturday night so.

I don't know if it was believe in a cause of money that drove him to continue practicing, I just know he had the right to do so under the laws of the state and some crazy loon decided he was going to end his life because he didn't like his job.

I don't like bookies, not going to murder them.

That's a ridiculous analogy and you know it. Everything in life presents danger, but this guy was actively being sought for execution. That's the difference.
Are you seriously saying that is the same as any tom dick and harry goin' out for a couple of beers on a night out?

There had been numerous attempts o his life for his work. I've been in dublin thousands of times and never ever had an attempt on my life. There's the difference, there are NOT folks out seeking to end my life, because I am a normal joe soap with no enemies that I know of.

This man KNEW that there were folks out to execute him for ONE thing, his abortion work.

Hey, if I knew that everytime I went out for a beer, that there was a group out to execute walshb, then YES, I would reconsider my actions.

seanybiker · 01-06-2009 07:10PM

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Seanybiker I believe is an atheist not a christian. I could be wrong though.

Ya does be right

.

Pro life murder

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