Indepent article: Virgin territory (Love & Sex)

santing · 24-05-2009 11:45PM #1

I just read a week old article in the indepent on why Irish youngster wait with sex till they are married. Cehck it out!
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/independent-woman/love-sex/virgin-territory-1742012.html

PDN · 25-05-2009 09:04AM

Interesting article.

It's good to see young people who can think for themselves in the face of intense media brainwashing and the kind of peer pressure where the word 'virgin' is often used as a term of derision.

studiorat · 25-05-2009 11:09AM

Interesting to note that they are all Evangelical Christians and as such are open to their own particular brand of "brainwashing" outside of the "media".

It does not exactly display a great grasp on reality for 16 year old to say the next woman he meets he's going to marry. I'm also quite unimpressed by their snobbery and they actually do seem pretty quick to judge:

People who sleep around, you can see the fruit. I do maintenance work in council houses and you are forever seeing single mothers

Shock Horror!!! I suppose they never considered that a lot of these single mothers may in fact actually be married. Quite a few of the single Moms I know are. Personally I think 23 is far to young to get married.

Personally I'm more impressed by the "Straight-Edge" kids. This is a punk rock youth culture where adherents choose to refrain from alcohol, tobacco, recreational drugs and sleeping around.

"no casual sex. or permiscous sex, ****ing around, no one nite stands,
diseases are spread, abortions happen, date rape, so no screwing
around, emotional baggage you dont need, so basicly you dont have sex
until you meet someone your comfortable with and that you'll take on
all the responsibilities or sex.

http://toefur.com/straightedge/articles/article1.html

PDN · 25-05-2009 12:18PM

studiorat wrote: »

Personally I'm more impressed by the "Straight-Edge" kids. This is a punk rock youth culture where adherents choose to refrain from alcohol, tobacco, recreational drugs and sleeping around.

http://toefur.com/straightedge/articles/article1.html

Those aren't real punks. Sid Vicious must be turning in his grave.

studiorat · 25-05-2009 12:28PM

You and I both know that doesn't happen...

He sold out anyway.

Nodin · 25-05-2009 12:49PM

studiorat wrote: »

He sold out anyway.

In fairness I think he died before the opportunity arose.

prinz · 25-05-2009 12:51PM

studiorat wrote: »

It does not exactly display a great grasp on reality for 16 year old to say the next woman he meets he's going to marry.

In fairness, that is a gross over-simplification of what he actually said/meant. It was 7 years before he did marry. This is something I feel really strongly about, the whole sexualisation of society from the top right down to kids as young as toddlers, and the view that people choosing to wait until marriage for sex are not normal/freaks/weird etc etc.

I know personally growing up I was never interested in relationships that I couldn't immediately see a long term future for, my faith had taken a back seat for most of my life so this wasn't (perhaps subconsciously) motivated by religion. I don't like wasting my own, or other people's time. If I didn't see a future I didn't get involved which basically ruled out any sort of relationship until I was in university. There were drunken one night stands, which I regret, but nothing meaningful, I always knew in the back of my mind that I would meet one girl who would be right for me.

If somebody is as sure as I know I was, that someday I would meet the right person, be they 16 or 36, then why is it not fair for them to say the person they want to have a relationship with is the person they will want to marry. What is the point in entering into relationships etc. and knowing that you wouldn't want to marry your partner?

Roughly 4 years ago I met my girl, and I knew within a few weeks that she was someone I could spend my life with and I pursued that relationship, and later this year we will be married. My fiancée is a girl who has waited until marriage for a sexual relationship and tbh we couldn't be happier together.

When I look at my friends, still chopping and changing boyfriend/girlfriend like a pair of shoes, going out on the pull, etc. Guess what they cannot find any sort of permanent steady relationship. I've tried to tell them that true love is not going to be found over your fourth double vodka in a niteclub but it falls on deaf ears. The media is bombarding people with the message.... more sex, more partners = happier, better life, without any sort of basis for it, except to prop-up their own industry which relies on the tenet of sex-sells.

(On a side note, it was meeting my fiancée which brought Christian faith into my life, so perhaps somebody was pulling some strings up above)

studiorat wrote: »

Personally I think 23 is far to young to get married.

Personally all experience has taught me otherwise. That is another message from the media tbh, telling people not to settle down, not to commit or they will miss out on so much. What exactly it is that you will miss out on is undetermined.

SteveDon · 25-05-2009 01:07PM

Sex is great, why would anyone want to deny themselves it.

Very strange article i thought. The guy himself is very preachy with his opinions.

I mean if you dont have sex with a woman you are likely to marry before you actually do, how do you know that the relationship will ultimately work, it is known that good sex is essential for a healthy relationship.

The reason people have so much casual sex is because its good fun. Why try to move sexual liberation back 50 years or so.

SteveDon · 25-05-2009 01:09PM

Straight edge is a way for people to feel different but still belong to a group. And we all know teenagers love doing that.

prinz · 25-05-2009 01:17PM

SteveDon wrote: »

Sex is great, why would anyone want to deny themselves it.

They're not denying themselves, merely saying they believe there is a time and a place, in accordance with their religious convictions.

SteveDon wrote: »

I mean if you dont have sex with a woman you are likely to marry before you actually do, how do you know that the relationship will ultimately work, it is known that good sex is essential for a healthy relationship.

If you have a terrible marriage, but great sex - will the relationship ultimately work? Who judges great sex? Do you judge great sex with a partner in terms of other partners? Great sex is about two people communicating, learning, and giving themselves to each other to achieve great sex. Good sex is something you work out together. It's very rarely instantaneous.

SteveDon wrote: »

The reason people have so much casual sex is because its good fun. Why try to move sexual liberation back 50 years or so.

Yes it has brought some good things to the world, but it has also brought not some not so good. Frankly the healthy peak of 'sexual liberation' has come and gone, and western society have gone so far past the healthy level that we are starting to reap the social problems associated.

JimiTime · 25-05-2009 01:20PM

I met my wife when I was 21. I was married at 23, and have been for 5 happy years. Hoping for many, many more. I agree with Prinz about the big push for not getting married, and over-emphasis on the value of sex.

JimiTime · 25-05-2009 01:27PM

prinz wrote: »

They're not denying themselves, merely saying they believe there is a time and a place, in accordance with their religious convictions.

What??!!? You mean self-control??? How dare you suggest such a thing:);)

Yes it has brought some good things to the world, but it has also brought not some not so good. Frankly the healthy peak of 'sexual liberation' has come and gone, and western society have gone so far past the healthy level that we are starting to reap the social problems associated.

+1.

SteveDon · 25-05-2009 01:28PM

I think we will have to agree to disagree on the sex issue because its probably more a matter of personal opinion when it comes to sex.

ON the other issue of refraining to get married, i think this is an issue of flexibility. Not just sexual flexibililty but the kind of freedom you get from being on your own.

Im all for putting off responsibilites, Im currently about to go into my 3rd year of college of what ill hope will be 6 years, 6 years were i can have fun and not have to think about the real 9-5 world that will inevitably follow.

Same applys for marraige, I want to have the freedom to travel the world, make my own decisions, hang around with the lads when i want and not have to worry about a nagging wife.

studiorat · 25-05-2009 01:33PM

SteveDon wrote: »

Straight edge is a way for people to feel different but still belong to a group. And we all know teenagers love doing that.

I wouldn't just confine that to teenagers or punk rockers btw.

In reply to Prinz's excellent post I'd have to say I agree with the bulk of what he's saying. However one of his main points is that he came to this point of view without actually needing to be a Christian. Which is something which a few people I can think of should take note of.

Both Prinz's comments and the tone of the comments in the article though still appear to look down their noses at those who have not taken a similar route. One regarding Prinz's "friends" and the the other the kids who would scorn single mothers in council flats...

I'm not sure if it covers the whole sexualisation (sp?) of society but I was discussing this with GF the other day. Initiated oddly enough by a discussion of the apparent trend in the shaving or pubic hair. Was it infantising sex?
Anyway the discussion led to her dragging up this article which I may be of some interest to some here, it's by Naomi Wolf. It's about perceptions of sex and influence of media, particularly porn

I do think that media issues like this has polarized the young people in the Indo, article. And probably pushed them too far in the opposite direction. Making them, and I hesitate to use the word, more conservative, than is good for them.

JimiTime · 25-05-2009 01:37PM

SteveDon wrote: »

Same applys for marraige, I want to have the freedom to travel the world, make my own decisions, hang around with the lads when i want and not have to worry about a nagging wife.

I travelled the world with my wife, in fact I was in Thailand for a month back in December again. (Koh Phangnan for the record. Go there if you're travelling, tis fab.) I make my own decisions, and also have the benefit of another persons wisdom. A person who I love and respect. Also, I still have my time with the lads if I want it.

Sounds to me like you are pre-empting choosing the wrong woman tbh.

studiorat · 25-05-2009 01:38PM

JimiTime wrote: »

I met my wife when I was 21. I was married at 23, and have been for 5 happy years. Hoping for many, many more. I agree with Prinz about the big push for not getting married, and over-emphasis on the value of sex.

Come back to us in 15...

JimiTime · 25-05-2009 01:47PM

studiorat wrote: »

Come back to us in 15...

If that is a humourous comment fair enough.
If not, then it does show the negative stereotype pushed these days. I have 'no' doubt, that if we are still alive, we'll still be as happy in 15 years. In fact if our 7 years together are anything to go by, we will be more happy and deeper in love. There seems to be a fear of marriage these days.

PDN · 25-05-2009 02:01PM

studiorat wrote: »

Come back to us in 15...

23 years happily married. We abstained from sex before marriage and have never regretted that decision.

JimiTime · 25-05-2009 02:13PM

PDN wrote: »

23 years happily married. We abstained from sex before marriage and have never regretted that decision.

Come back to us in 30 years:)

prinz · 25-05-2009 02:33PM

studiorat wrote: »

Both Prinz's comments and the tone of the comments in the article though still appear to look down their noses at those who have not taken a similar route. One regarding Prinz's "friends" and the the other the kids who would scorn single mothers in council flats...

I don't look down my nose at anyone.I know how my life and relationship has panned out and I look at others and see how (a) they go about finding partners and (b) how they look at relationships in the light of the media reflection. All you need do is check out the Relationship Issues forum to see pages and pages of "issues", 99% of which could be solved through basic communication, compromise and understanding of your partner, not sex. And all of the aforementioned skills are developed most in a relationship based on getting to know your partner, not getting into his/her pants. My friends are my friends by virtue of the fact that they are people I obviously do NOT 'look down my nose at', if I think on the other hand that they are misguided in how they pursue meaningful relationships I have no qualms about saying it.

However when one girl posted her issue on R.I. about her boyfriend not wanting sex before marriage, despite the rest of the relationship being wonderful and both of them loving each other - by her own admission, the consensus was that she should dump him, give him an ultimatum, etc.
There was no rational thought put into why a young man in today's world might want to abstain, regardless of the fact that the poster said it was due to religious reasons, people said he was probably gay, a victim of sexual abuse, repressed, hormonally deficient, weird, etc. I have incurred the wrath of the Mods on that forum for this very reason. Apparently a relationship based on abstention until marriage is not a 'real' relationship but so called 'f*ck-buddies' is regarded as perfectly legitimate. That is my problem with how people view sexuality today.

If I say I think the route I followed is best, then immediately I am accused of looking down my nose at someone. If on the other hand, I said sex before marriage is the be all and only way, would the same people accuse me of 'looking down my nose' those who abstain? No. Why? Because that's the society in which we live.

prinz · 25-05-2009 02:36PM

studiorat wrote: »

Come back to us in 15...

I have a brother who married when he was 21, at the time against my parents and her parents wishes as they thought the couple were 'too young'. They are still together, happily married and 2 kids, celebrated 15 years of marrige last year.

,8,1 · 26-05-2009 08:36AM

"I would be shocked if I found someone who decided to keep themselves pure apart from those with strong religious beliefs," he says. "I'm sure there are some, but I would be very shocked to find them. I've lived in the world, I know the pressures on young people; it's everywhere, it's in music videos and it's in advertising."

"It's a whole package, really, it's not just staying pure," he continues, "it's about keeping your eyes pure as well." He does concede that this is a difficult task. "Hollywood is no friend to keeping men pure, not at all. I think it's a miracle that anyone does stay pure in this society. If you listen to rap music, that kind of genre, they treat women like a piece of meat, a woman is just there for their pleasure and you have this influencing men today."

And of course the women in said music videos are just helpless, passive victims of the Patriarchy; with no agency of their own in the matter.

David O'Brien's analysis - quite in common with feminist critiques of pornography and "the media" - also ignores the fact that the CEO of MTV is a woman.

PDN · 26-05-2009 09:35AM

,8,1 wrote: »

And of course the women in said music videos are just helpless, passive victims of the Patriarchy; with no agency of their own in the matter.

David O'Brien's analysis - quite in common with feminist critiques of pornography and "the media" - also ignores the fact that the CEO of MTV is a woman.

Why does it make any difference that the CEO of MTV is a woman? Women also play an active role in people trafficking, prostitution etc. That doesn't alter the fact that such practices treat women as objects and pander to the basest most selfish aspects of human nature.

,8,1 · 26-05-2009 10:37AM

Why does it make any difference that the CEO of MTV is a woman? Women also play an active role in people trafficking, prostitution etc. That doesn't alter the fact that such practices treat women as objects and pander to the basest most selfish aspects of human nature.

If there is agency and agreement on the part of the woman involved, I don't see how it constitutes "abuse".

Why does it matter that the CEO of MTV is a woman? Because the usual dialogue is that women in music videos are being "exploited" by "men".

Sorry: female CEO, that's not the case.

You are right in saying that pornography and prostitution pandering to base aspects of human nature.

But can it be assumed that women working in these industries are ipso facto abused? No.

"Sexual objectification" is yet another feminist "loose concept".

The term is defined and redefined, seen as positive and negative, according purely to feminists' whim. Your dealing with an amorphous political term.

I don't think anyone who wants to discuss these subjects seriously is doing themselves justice by employing such debased language.

MatthewVII · 26-05-2009 10:47AM

These children seem dangerously misinformed, as in

it's the only way to keep from getting Aids or any sexual disease

Hrm. Has a slightly scaremongering tone to it

also

maybe some people think it's OK and it's fun, but it's going to hurt you in the end. I think you'll have guilt

I can't say I know an awful lot of sexually active people outside of wedlock who get hurt or guilty from their practices.

Even though I admire these children for standing up for what they believe in, I think they have a very fantasized view of morality and reality.

prinz · 26-05-2009 01:01PM

MatthewVII wrote: »

These children seem dangerously misinformed....

Why are they misinformed exactly?

The only sure-fire way not to contract an STD, or get pregnant is to abstain from sexual activity.

MatthewVII wrote: »

I can't say I know an awful lot of sexually active people outside of wedlock who get hurt or guilty from their practices.

I do.Sexual activity is only one aspect of this. Other aspects are far more destructive - the sexualisation of people of all ages, the media portrayal of what is normal re teens, relationships, sexual behaviour etc., body image in the light of the mass media, etc etc.

MatthewVII wrote: »

Even though I admire these children for standing up for what they believe in, I think they have a very fantasized view of morality and reality.

What fantasy would that be?

Coriolanus · 26-05-2009 01:32PM

Hrm. Didn't the find in America that abstinence education and groups like the silver ring delay a teens first incidence of full sexual incidence but increased the chances of that first incidence being unprotected? Hence why the red states have a higher incidence of teen pregnancy than the blues.

Now I'd be the first to say correlation isn't causation but...

PDN · 26-05-2009 01:38PM

Nevore wrote: »

Hrm. Didn't the find in America that abstinence education and groups like the silver ring delay a teens first incidence of full sexual incidence but increased the chances of that first incidence being unprotected? Hence why the red states have a higher incidence of teen pregnancy than the blues.

Now I'd be the first to say correlation isn't causation but...

Initiatives like the silver ring thing, IMHO, simply try to substitute one form of peer pressure for another. That is bound to fail.

The Indo article is talking about something quite different - young people making decisions that go against the flow of peer pressure but are based on deeply held convictions.

prinz · 26-05-2009 01:50PM

Nevore wrote: »

Hrm. Didn't the find in America that abstinence education and groups like the silver ring delay a teens first incidence of full sexual incidence but increased the chances of that first incidence being unprotected? Hence why the red states have a higher incidence of teen pregnancy than the blues.

Now I'd be the first to say correlation isn't causation but...

No. What they found in America that Abstinence-Only education programmes had no concrete result vis-a-vis teenage pregnancies, teenage sexual activity etc.

However the issue is not that abstinence-only should be taught, but that people who do choose to follow this route should not be singled out as some sort of freakshows for not conforming to the social/media 'ideal'.
Already see here the kids in the article are described as somehow 'misinformed fantasist idealists who have broken from reality'.

The problems arise when abstinence is not even considered as a legitimate course to take, so that when some youg person does decide to abstain they are considered deluded, or damaged in some way.

pts · 26-05-2009 01:55PM

prinz wrote: »

The problems arise when abstinence is not even considered as a legitimate course to take, so that when some youg person does decide to abstain they are considered deluded, or damaged in some way.

Do you not think that the reason they are treated this way is because they base their choice (mostly) on religious beliefs which most of their peers do not adhere to. I don't want to get into an argument if that religious belief is right or wrong, just wanted to point out why I believe they are treated that way.

prinz · 26-05-2009 02:09PM

pts wrote: »

Do you not think that the reason they are treated this way is because they base their choice (mostly) on religious beliefs which most of their peers do not adhere to. I don't want to get into an argument if that religious belief is right or wrong, just wanted to point out why I believe they are treated that way.

The majority I believe are religiously motivated, but religion aside, I believe that it is just as normal for someone to choose to abstain, as it is for someone to sleep around, regardless of the motivations behind the decision. Everyone is talking about sexual liberation this, and real world that, it appears that open-mindedness and acceptance only applies if your a libertine liberal. If someone wants to be sexually conservative then that's their equal right, and if they want to promote that then more power to them. Their choosing the life they want to follow and shouldn't be outcast or shunned because of it.

Indepent article: Virgin territory (Love & Sex)

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