Humans 'ate' Neanderthals, study says

darjeeling · 17-05-2009 1:59am #1

From the Guardian (here).

Fernando Rozzi of the Centre National de la Récherche Scientifique in Paris identified a Neanderthal jawbone with butchery marks similar to those made by homo sapiens on deer bones. Rozzi comments: "Neanderthals met a violent end at our hands and in some cases we ate them."

Another team member had a less violent, though still grisly explanation - that the jawbone might have been found by humans and its teeth used for a necklace.

Chris Stringer of the London Nat Hist Museum is called in for a bit of sangfroid:

Chris Stringer wrote:

We do need more evidence, but this could indicate modern humans and Neanderthals were living in the same area of Europe at the same time, that they were interacting, and that some of these interactions may have been hostile.

This does not prove we systematically eradicated the Neanderthals or that we regularly ate their flesh. But it does add to the evidence that competition from modern humans probably contributed to Neanderthal extinction.

In the same week, a 35,000 year old 'Venus' figure was revealed. The Huffington Post headlines it best:

Huffington Post wrote:

Venus of Hohle Fels: PREHISTORIC PORN

BERLIN — A 35,000-year-old ivory carving of a busty woman found in a German cave was unveiled Wednesday by archaeologists who believe it is the oldest known sculpture of the human form. The carving found in six fragments in Germany's Hohle Fels cave depicts a woman with a swollen belly, wide-set thighs and large, protruding breasts.

Quite a crowd, our ancestors!

Edit: not sure if here or Archaeology is best for this, but here it is for now.

Galvasean · 17-05-2009 2:06am

I guess that scene in Quest For Fire with the canibalistic neanderthals was all wrong.

darjeeling · 17-05-2009 5:19pm

This is the kind of evidence that feeds into the debate over what killed off the Neanderthals. Opinion is still divided over the relative importance of climatic cooling and competition from modern humans, but we're beginning to get some clues about the interactions between the species. The evidence from the fragments of Neanderthal genome sequence (reviewed here) strongly suggests that our ancestors didn't interbreed with them, despite living in proximity for perhaps 6,000 years in Europe. When, soon, we get a more extensive genome sequence, we should know for certain.

I've long surmised, based on our history of tribal and ethnic conflict and even genocide, that our ancestors wouldn't have been kindly disposed to their Neanderthal neighbours. At the very least, I doubt we'd have sat down with them around the camp fire and swapped porn carvings.

marco_polo · 18-05-2009 1:13am

darjeeling wrote: »

This is the kind of evidence that feeds into the debate over what killed off the Neanderthals. Opinion is still divided over the relative importance of climatic cooling and competition from modern humans, but we're beginning to get some clues about the interactions between the species. The evidence from the fragments of Neanderthal genome sequence (reviewed here) strongly suggests that our ancestors didn't interbreed with them, despite living in proximity for perhaps 6,000 years in Europe. When, soon, we get a more extensive genome sequence, we should know for certain.

I've long surmised, based on our history of tribal and ethnic conflict and even genocide, that our ancestors wouldn't have been kindly disposed to their Neanderthal neighbours. At the very least, I doubt we'd have sat down with them around the camp fire and swapped porn carvings.

Not that the evidence is overly compelling for a violent Neanderthal end at the hand of humans, I have often wondered if underlying the main objections to the violent theories of extinction, has been a refusal to accept that humans are capable of barbaric acts, when all the evidence suggests were are more that capable of doing it to own own species. I find the very notion of a peaceful co existance very hard to swallow TBH.

Based on our history, it is inconcievable that Neanderthals were not killed by humans, for me the question is only whether or not it was a major cause of their extinction.

Galvasean · 18-05-2009 1:36am

Well when you look at how badly modern humans treat each other with over minor differences, one can only imagne what we might have made of those weird looking wide lads with the pronounced brows and big noses.

Capt'n Midnight · 19-05-2009 6:22pm

During WWII Japanese soldiers in China and New guinea resorted to canibalism.

In some cultures didn't they eat an relative / chief who died of natural causes to keep the spirit or something. In any event back in those days it was a lot of protein to waste.

Mickeroo · 21-05-2009 1:53am

Isn't there some evidence that the neanderthals didnt die out but were interbread out of existence with other primates?

THere was some instance where a guy, i'm pretty sure he was a scientist in the field actually, he ended up having to get a scan done on his back or something and it turned out his spine was physiologically the same/similar to a neanderthal and supposedly other genetic neanderthal traits have been found in people.

Also, isn't it true that Neanderthals actually had bigger brains than homosapiens?

darjeeling · 21-05-2009 1:53pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

Isn't there some evidence that the neanderthals didnt die out but were interbread out of existence with other primates?

THere was some instance where a guy, i'm pretty sure he was a scientist in the field actually, he ended up having to get a scan done on his back or something and it turned out his spine was physiologically the same/similar to a neanderthal and supposedly other genetic neanderthal traits have been found in people.

Some people - notably Erik Trinkaus - have claimed Neandertals interbred with early modern humans, citing fossils that they say have features of both - particularly a skeleton of a child from Portugal. Others looking at the same fossils have disagreed.

The DNA data has shown no evidence of any significant interbreeding. The Neandertal mitochondrial sequences found are all similar, and quite different from any found in modern humans (estimated separation between the lineages is 660,000 ± 140,000 years). Based on this, Currat and Excoffier (here) modelled the amount of possible interbreeding and came up with a maximum of 120 incidents in 12,000 years of coexistence.

We've now got a large chunk of Neandertal genomic DNA too, and this also shows no evidence of significant interbreeding. For a given stretch of DNA, average divergence between Neandertal and human is estimated at 700,000 years. The split between human and Neandertal lineages is estimated as having happened 370,000 years ago, before modern humans arose in Africa (paper here).

Mickeroo wrote: »

Also, isn't it true that Neanderthals actually had bigger brains than homosapiens?

Yes, slightly bigger. This is usually said to mirror the larger body mass of Neandertals.

marco_polo · 21-05-2009 2:19pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

Isn't there some evidence that the neanderthals didnt die out but were interbread out of existence with other primates?

THere was some instance where a guy, i'm pretty sure he was a scientist in the field actually, he ended up having to get a scan done on his back or something and it turned out his spine was physiologically the same/similar to a neanderthal and supposedly other genetic neanderthal traits have been found in people.

Also, isn't it true that Neanderthals actually had bigger brains than homosapiens?

In fact big brains may not be quite everything, there are indeed a couple of early human ancestors species such as Neanderthals that had larger brains that modern homo sapiens. There is a chart of average estimated brain size of known primate species here: (Caution - Mucho scrolling)

http://www.anthro.fsu.edu/people/faculty/falk/Handbook_V2.htm

Humans 'ate' Neanderthals, study says

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