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The Great Ida Debate

  • 18-05-2009 1:30pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭


    The discovery of a 47 million year old lemur like primate in Germany
    has been heralded as a possible ancestor of modern monkeys and apes (that includes humans BTW).

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124235632936122739.html
    In what could prove to be a landmark discovery, a leading paleontologist said scientists have dug up the 47 million-year-old fossil of an ancient primate whose features suggest it could be the common ancestor of all later monkeys, apes and humans.

    Anthropologists have long believed that humans evolved from ancient ape-like ancestors. Some 50 million years ago, two ape-like groups walked the Earth. One is known as the tarsidae, a precursor of the tarsier, a tiny, large-eyed creature that lives in Asia. Another group is known as the adapidae, a precursor of today's lemurs in Madagascar.

    Based on previously limited fossil evidence, one big debate had been whether the tarsidae or adapidae group gave rise to monkeys, apes and humans. The latest discovery bolsters the less common position that our ancient ape-like ancestor was an adapid, the believed precursor of lemurs.

    Philip Gingerich, president-elect of the Paleontological Society in the U.S., has co-written a paper that will detail next week the latest fossil discovery in Public Library of Science, a peer-reviewed, online journal.

    "This discovery brings a forgotten group into focus as a possible ancestor of higher primates," Mr. Gingerich, a professor of paleontology at the University of Michigan, said in an interview.

    The discovery has little bearing on a separate paleontological debate centering on the identity of a common ancestor of chimps and humans, which could have lived about six million years ago and still hasn't been found. That gap in the evolution story is colloquially referred to as the "missing link" controversy. In reality, though, all gaps in the fossil record are technically "missing links" until filled in, and many scientists say the term is meaningless.

    Nonetheless, the latest fossil find is likely to ignite further the debate between evolutionists who draw conclusions based on a limited fossil record, and creationists who don't believe that humans, monkeys and apes evolved from a common ancestor.

    Scientists won't necessarily agree about the details either. "Lemur advocates will be delighted, but tarsier advocates will be underwhelmed" by the new evidence, says Tim White, a paleontologist at the University of California, Berkeley. "The debate will persist."

    The skeleton will be unveiled at New York City's American Museum of Natural History next Tuesday by Mayor Michael Bloomberg and an international team involved in the discovery.

    According to Prof. Gingerich, the fossilized remains are of a young female adapid. The skeleton was unearthed by collectors about two years ago and has been kept tightly under wraps since then, in an unusual feat of scientific secrecy.

    Prof. Gingerich said he had twice examined the adapid skeleton, which was "a complete, spectacular fossil." The completeness of the preserved skeleton is crucial, because most previously found fossils of ancient primates were small finds, such as teeth and jawbones.

    It was found in the Messel Shale Pit, a disused quarry near Frankfurt, Germany. The pit has long been a World Heritage Site and is the source of a number of well-preserved fossils from the middle Eocene epoch, some 50 million years ago.

    Prof. Gingerich said several scientists, including Jorn Hurum of Norway's National History Museum, had inspected the fossil with computer tomography scanning, a sophisticated X-ray technique that can provide detailed, cross-sectional views. Dr. Hurum declined to comment.

    Although the creature looks like a lemur, there are some distinctive physical differences. Lemurs have a tooth comb (a tooth modified to help groom fur); a grooming claw; and a wet nose. Dr. Gingerich said that the adapid skeleton has neither a grooming claw nor a tooth comb. "We can't say whether it had a wet nose or not," he noted.

    Since the fossilized creature found in Germany didn't have features like a tooth comb or grooming claw, it could be argued that it gave rise to monkeys, apes and humans, which don't have these features either.

    OB-DR424_lemur_CV_20090515102422.jpg
    "Who, me?"

    - and special thanks to the user pts who alerted me to this article.


«134

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 55 ✭✭Mr Lahey


    Breaking news on sky news that the missing link has been found
    and that there is little or no doubt that we are descended from apes.
    Interesting to see what the churches line on this will be.
    No wonder my shoulders are so damn hairy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭Captain-America


    Don't you tell me what I is.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Mr Lahey wrote: »
    Breaking news on sky news that the missing link has been found
    and that there is little or no doubt that we are descended from apes.
    Interesting to see what the churches line on this will be.
    No wonder my shoulders are so damn hairy.
    IIRC, Some of the church believe evolution was crafted by god so that reduces your post to just the information that your shoulders are hairy.


    Oh yeah, seriously though, If we evolved from apes why are there still Apes walking around and not evolving?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp




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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    Oh yeah, seriously though, If we evolved from apes why are there still Apes walking around and not evolving?

    They are, just at a very slow pace like everyone always did. They're not our modern day ancestors or whatever but the result of their own evolutionary line.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,358 ✭✭✭Dennis the Stone


    Corey and Trevor to the fu*k off department,
    Corey and Trevor to the fu*k off department.

    They can find the missing link but they still can't find Maddie. Science eh?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,698 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    Oh yeah, seriously though, If we evolved from apes why are there still Apes walking around and not evolving?

    because there are alot of people who dont know how to read and assume we evolved from apes, when in reality we evolved from a common ancestor not from apes. They have the same ancestor as us, but they themselves are not our ancestors but more like cousins.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,945 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    Smokes. Lets go.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 55 ✭✭Mr Lahey


    On a school trip years ago an orangutan hurled a huge lump of ****e at
    our class and he was a damn good shot. I think his son became a
    professional darts player.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,833 ✭✭✭✭Armin_Tamzarian


    Mr Lahey wrote: »
    Breaking news on sky news that the missing link has been found.

    That's old news.
    The missing link was discovered years ago in Clara, Co. Offaly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    BlitzKrieg wrote: »
    They have the same ancestor as us, but they themselves are not our ancestors but more like cousins.

    They're exactly like a few cousins I have. Seriously, big knuckle-dragging lads from Offaly they are. Eat a loaf of bread whole and call it a sandwich so they would.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,348 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    BlitzKrieg wrote: »
    because there are alot of people who dont know how to read and assume we evolved from apes, when in reality we evolved from a common ancestor not from apes. They have the same ancestor as us, but they themselves are not our ancestors but more like cousins.

    Exactly. Think of apes as you retard cousins from Cavan.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Oh yeah, seriously though, If we evolved from apes why are there still Apes walking around and not evolving?

    We didn't evolve from apes. Both ourselves and apes evolved from a common ancestor.

    Edit: beaten to it :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,698 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Edit: beaten to it :)

    twice


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Oh hey. That's my great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandfather.

    He was a funny one, alright.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    BlitzKrieg wrote: »
    twice

    :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,798 ✭✭✭✭DrumSteve


    Right turn, Clyde.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,541 ✭✭✭Heisenberg.


    This post has been deleted.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Mr Lahey wrote: »
    Breaking news on sky news
    and yet there was time to write a book about it http://www.revealingthelink.com/more-about-ida/the-book

    The UK premiere of Uncovering Our Earliest Ancestor: The Link will be shown on BBC One at 9pm on Tuesday 26th May. The BBC’s version of the film is written and narrated by Sir David Attenborough.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8057465.stm
    Ida was discovered in the 1980s in a fossil treasure-trove called Messel Pit, near Darmstadt in Germany. For much of the intervening period, it has been in a private collection.


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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    The UK premiere of Uncovering Our Earliest Ancestor: The Link will be shown on BBC One at 9pm on Tuesday 26th May. The BBC’s version of the film is written and narrated by Sir David Attenborough.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8057465.stm
    Ida was discovered in the 1980s in a fossil treasure-trove called Messel Pit, near Darmstadt in Germany. For much of the intervening period, it has been in a private collection.

    In a private collection, since the 80's :mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭Captain-America


    Oh hey. That's my great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandfather.

    He was a funny one, alright.


    That's great champ.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭A7X


    Oh hey. That's my great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandfather.

    He was a funny one, alright.

    Some people on here try way too hard to be funny


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭5318008!


    The fossil is not a link between humans and other apes, it is a link between all primates and the other mammals.

    pfffffffft.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A7X wrote: »
    Some people on here try way too hard to be funny

    Tell me bout it. Took ages to type out them greats.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,945 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    Tell me bout it. Took ages to type out them greats.
    And it looks like you didn't even get a single one wrong! That's impressive. Would've taken me hours. Still getting used to these opposable thumbs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,808 ✭✭✭✭chin_grin


    So I have a valid excuse for defecating in to my mitt and hurling it at passers by. Cool.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,157 ✭✭✭✭Alanstrainor


    Tago Mago wrote: »
    Corey and Trevor to the fu*k off department,
    Corey and Trevor to the fu*k off department.

    You sir are a hero! Excellent.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,378 ✭✭✭Borneo Fnctn


    Sam "Caveman" Losco the is the missing link.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,097 ✭✭✭✭zuroph


    sh1tmonkeys gonna fall out of the sh1ttree now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,069 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Would've taken me hours. Still getting used to these opposable thumbs.

    lol that was made of win!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 241 ✭✭Pinky Pixie




    Now you have that song in my head :p


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,816 ✭✭✭Acacia


    Can anyone actually argue for Creationism anymore? Surely this is the final nail in the coffin?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,378 ✭✭✭Borneo Fnctn


    Acacia wrote: »
    Can anyone actually argue for Creationism anymore?

    Not if you have a brain in your skull. Science is about basing the conclusion on the evidence. Creationism is about selecting "evidence" to suit a conclusion that has already been made. I don't expect they'll stop doing it now though. I don't like it any more than you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,816 ✭✭✭Acacia


    Not if you have a brain in your skull. Science is about basing the conclusion on the evidence. Creationism is about selecting "evidence" to suit a conclusion that has already been made. I don't expect they'll stop doing it now though. I don't like it any more than you.

    But sure this fossil could have been put there by God to test us! :p:pac:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 351 ✭✭Tyler MacDurden


    Acacia wrote: »
    Can anyone actually argue for Creationism anymore? Surely this is the final nail in the coffin?

    There most likely will always be a die-hard rump of IDiots who will cling to it. No matter what science reveals about the universe or life's origins they'll just keep moving their sky-daddy that one step outside the reality that the rest of us live in.

    One just hopes that their numbers diminish so as not to hold the species back to any appreciable degree.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,945 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    There most likely will always be a die-hard rump of IDiots who will cling to it. No matter what science reveals about the universe or life's origins they'll just keep moving their sky-daddy that one step outside the reality that the rest of us live in.

    One just hopes that their numbers diminish so as not to hold the species back to any appreciable degree.
    Acacia wrote: »
    But sure this fossil could have been put there by God to test us! :p:pac:
    Not if you have a brain in your skull. Science is about basing the conclusion on the evidence. Creationism is about selecting "evidence" to suit a conclusion that has already been made. I don't expect they'll stop doing it now though. I don't like it any more than you.

    Somebody help. These people are imagining trolls to respond to. Swine flu?


  • Registered Users Posts: 351 ✭✭Tyler MacDurden


    Somebody help. These people are imagining trolls to respond to. Swine flu?

    Where's the harm in a little pre-emptive troll-whacking?

    Acacia brought up an issue that is, for better or worse, lurking in the background of this story. We don't need a representative from the Creationist Society present before we mention them surely?

    Here we are, discussing a 47-million year old fossilised lemur, without needing her input into the discussion. Same goes for our thus-far silent Creationist buddies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 693 ✭✭✭slippy wicket


    So if we are all apes, if election canvassers come into your area is it ok to defend your territory by throwing sh*t at them?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    You know this is the second thread on palaeontology in After Hours in the last week or two.
    You know what this means....


    I'm finally cool!!!!!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    The good people of After Hours have gotten wind of the story:

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055569232

    Been some pretty good jokes/feedback on the story.


  • Registered Users Posts: 351 ✭✭Tyler MacDurden


    Galvasean wrote: »
    You know this is the second thread on palaeontology in After Hours in the last week or two.
    You know what this means....


    I'm finally cool!!!!!

    Less of the false modesty G, you know you've always been cool. You've got a DinoDog in your sig for feck's sake. :D

    *heads over to Palaeontology forum, we get the hint*


  • Registered Users Posts: 351 ✭✭Tyler MacDurden


    Galvasean wrote: »
    The good people of After Hours have gotten wind of the story:

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055569232

    Been some pretty good jokes/feedback on the story.

    And why, oh why did I go there to discuss it? Abject apologies for neglecting fossil-central. :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Less of the false modesty G, you know you've always been cool. You've got a DinoDog in your sig for feck's sake. :D

    This much is true.
    The kids can call me G-dawg.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,159 ✭✭✭✭phasers


    I hear it's from someone pissing in the drinking water.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Acacia wrote: »
    Can anyone actually argue for Creationism anymore? Surely this is the final nail in the coffin?

    Dunno, I find it kinda funny that so many people will uphold it as an absolute fact that we're directly descended from apes when this missing link was/is unfound for so long despite science best efforts ( and occasional attempts at fraud :pac:)


    Personally i suspect aliens more than god. Though god, by definition, is an alien really I guess..hang on...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,698 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    Dunno, I find it kinda funny that so many people will uphold it as an absolute fact that we're directly descended from apes when this missing link was/is unfound for so long despite science best efforts ( and occasional attempts at fraud )

    From what I understand (from random youtubing, I recommand Thunderfoot on anything evolution releated.) The missing link is no longer an essential componentent to proving evolution and has become quite outdated in fact, but still holds a rather populer romantiscm in the media so is constantly brought up as a talking poiint. It seems there is more then enough evidence for evolution in dna and cell research. But I could be wrong.

    My personal stance on evolution is that while I can get a basic grasp of it, I still dont understand it so I do not use it as an element of my belief structure, hence in religious debates its something I wouldnt argue for, because its stupid to argue for or against something if you do not understand it.

    Which probably explains why I find *some* (had this argument before by mistake) athesiests annoying who use evolution as their proof and I have a better understanding of it then them and I wont go beyond considering myself Agnostic.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,257 ✭✭✭SoupyNorman


    This is great news, although I double checked it on BBC News as the source is from Sky News in these here parts.



    So WTF actually happens now? Jurassic Park, cures for AIDS/Cancer or does the fossil just get catalogued and stuck in a drawer?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Interesting how Ida lived alongside Propalaeotherium, a primitive horse the size of a cat. I wonder did Ida ever get drunk on fermented grapes and ride one like a little horsey?
    No, but i can dream...

    propalaeotherium_hzoom.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Bambi wrote: »
    Dunno, I find it kinda funny that so many people will uphold it as an absolute fact that we're directly descended from apes when this missing link was/is unfound for so long despite science best efforts ( and occasional attempts at fraud :pac:)

    The famous 'missing-link' that hasn't been found is the direct (and 'last') ancestor of both humans and chimps which is believed to have lived some 7million years ago. As has been said already on this thread it is a fairly romanticised notion (that we absolutely must find this scientific holy grail or all is lost).
    However it is not essential to find this particular creature to prove that we evolved from a type of ape (actually if you want to get really picky, humans are actually a type of ape).
    For example several kinds of upright walking ape from the last 5 odd million years (like Australopithecus have been found, showing how the transition from tree dwelling primate to ground walking human occured.

    So WTF actually happens now? Jurassic Park, cures for AIDS/Cancer or does the fossil just get catalogued and stuck in a drawer?

    The last choice is the closest to the truth. As an important and very well preserved fossil it will no doubt be studied by scientists for years to come, every time they want to study the origins of mankind (which is all the time).
    High quality casts might be made and sent to museums for people like me to oogle at. :)


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