Swine Flu & Ethnic Targetting

King Mob · 01-05-2009 8:11am

robtri wrote: »

and there is no evidence to suggest it is not a bio weapon... have you evidence to support that?

That's not how logic works unfortunately. There is no reason to believe that it is a bioweapon.
There is however a ton of reasons to believe it is a normal (so to speak) flu.

If you make the claim it is a bioweapon the burden of proof is on you.

So what reason do you have that it is a bioweapon?

robtri wrote: »

oh, everybody can be infected, but only a certain ethnic group have been Killed by it so far...

Maybe because it started in Mexico?

Kernel · 01-05-2009 5:45pm

King Mob wrote: »

Might have something to do with the low rate of condom use in Africa.
Oh and in case you haven't noticed AIDS and HIV can infect anyone.

No, I'm not talking about infection due to cultural reasons etc. I mean infection due to genetic or ethnic reasons. And if you re-read my post, it concerns the increased propensity or probability of infection in certain ethnicities - regardless of condom useage.

King Mob wrote: »

But hey if you can link a Rockefeller and Israel to to it there's no other explanation right?

Eh no. No need to be facetious.

To everyone else interested, I think this could be shaping to be a Tamiflu conspiracy rather than a global killer. Virologists have pointed out that the initial wave of Spanish Flu in the first half of the 20th century was mild enough compared to the following wave, so it's still possible although the mortality rates are far too low. Cheney is involved with Tamiflu, and according to a recent ATS post, the corporation predicted increased sales of over 580% for this year....The efficacy of the drug is also in question recently, but despite this, Gordon Brown yesterday quadrupled the British Government's order of the drug. Food for though eh folks?

King Mob · 01-05-2009 5:56pm

Kernel wrote: »

No, I'm not talking about infection due to cultural reasons etc. I mean infection due to genetic or ethnic reasons. And if you re-read my post, it concerns the increased propensity or probability of infection in certain ethnicities - regardless of condom useage.

So you can show these studies that show this then?

How exactly did these studies rule out the other explanations?

Kernel wrote: »

Eh no. No need to be facetious.

Well now that Dick Cheney has been name dropped, we got the CT tri force here.

Kernel wrote: »

Cheney is involved with Tamiflu, and according to a recent ATS post, the corporation predicted increased sales of over 580% for this year....The efficacy of the drug is also in question recently, but despite this, Gordon Brown yesterday quadrupled the British Government's order of the drug. Food for though eh folks?

Well if it's on above top secret......

meglome · 01-05-2009 7:35pm

Why are we even talking about this bull****. Of course Mexicans are badly hit as it started there. But given the spread all over the world (from people coming from Mexico) there's obviously no one race it's hitting, it's effecting anyone.

Sofa_King Good · 01-05-2009 7:50pm

King Mob wrote: »

Well now that Dick Cheney has been name dropped, we got the CT tri force here.

I think Kernel may have meant to say Donald Rumsfeld. Who it has already been established has and will profit, as will Al Gore and Colin Powell directly.

Cheney is profiting off the billions in contracts awarded to Haliburton in the "rebuilding" of Iraq after he was involved in its destruction.

Obama profited financially through a trust he set up just before the outbreak of the bird flu outbreak.

King Mob wrote: »

Well if it's on above top secret......

I've seen the report, it's true. If you are genuinely interested it shouldn't be too hard to find.

Sofa_King Good · 01-05-2009 7:53pm

meglome wrote: »

Why are we even talking about this bull****. Of course Mexicans are badly hit as it started there. But given the spread all over the world (from people coming from Mexico) there's obviously no one race it's hitting, it's effecting anyone.

Only one race dying.

The reason we are talking about is that its a CT forum.

There is every reason to believe it is possible if unlikely.

Especially from a country that fires depleted uranium onto civilians and has dropped 2 nuclear bombs.

Sofa_King Good · 01-05-2009 7:55pm

King Mob wrote: »

.

If you make the claim it is a bioweapon the burden of proof is on you.

That only works if you are presenting something as a fact not a possibility. I don't think you can discount a possibility with another possibilty.

O'Coonassa · 01-05-2009 7:59pm

meglome wrote: »

Why are we even talking about this bull****. Of course Mexicans are badly hit as it started there. But given the spread all over the world (from people coming from Mexico) there's obviously no one race it's hitting, it's effecting anyone.

Still. 300 odd confirmed cases outside of Mexico with no non-Mexican fatalities and mortality is running at around 6% in Mexico. Why the difference?

King Mob · 01-05-2009 8:01pm

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

That only works if you are presenting something as a fact not a possibility. I don't think you can discount a possibility with another possibilty.

It's also possible that it's a alien bioweapon. Or it's an alien invasion. Or god's wrath. And so on ad nausum.

King Mob · 01-05-2009 8:03pm

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Still. 300 odd confirmed cases outside of Mexico with no non-Mexican fatalities and mortality is running at around 6% in Mexico. Why the difference?

Because it's been in Mexico longer and that Mexican hospitals aren't as good as others?

Sofa_King Good · 01-05-2009 8:37pm

King Mob wrote: »

Because it's been in Mexico longer and that Mexican hospitals aren't as good as others?

The vast majority of cases outside Mexico haven't needed or recieved hospitalisation though.

King Mob · 01-05-2009 8:44pm

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

The vast majority of cases outside Mexico haven't needed or recieved hospitalisation though.

Higher availability of pharmaceuticals?

What are the demographics of the people who died in Mexico?

There's rather a lot of other, more likely factors that you have to eliminate before you can conclude bio weaponry.

Undergod · 01-05-2009 9:54pm

Has anyone asked on the science or medical forums if this kind of ethinc targeting is possible? Or if it would be possible for a flu to infect everyone but only prove fatal in those with certain genes?

Also, I'd imagine it'd be hard to target Mexicans, due to a relatively mixed racial history.

marco_polo · 02-05-2009 2:59am

Undergod wrote: »

Has anyone asked on the science or medical forums if this kind of ethinc targeting is possible? Or if it would be possible for a flu to infect everyone but only prove fatal in those with certain genes?

Also, I'd imagine it'd be hard to target Mexicans, due to a relatively mixed racial history.

In short no. As the influenza virus is widespread across many species of birds and mammals albeir in a few different strains, we can be certain that it is not fussy about the minor details of the Human Genome (the differences between each of us are very minor because, believe it or not, humans are one of the least genetically diverse species around). From the point of view of the virus we are all but identical genetically, just another mammal whose cells it can use to reproduce itself.

Undergod · 02-05-2009 9:25am

So that pretty much prevents it from being an ethnically-targeted bioweapon?

bonkey · 02-05-2009 10:51am

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

Only one race dying.

Yes - humans.

Dino_Might · 02-05-2009 11:34am

We can't just say that it's impossible to generate an ethnic targeting virus. We have no idea what is going on at Area 51 but I'm pretty sure that they have technology so advanced that our present day minds couldn't even imagine it.

It's interesting that only Mexicans have died so far and is it really that hard to believe that AMERICA would kill innocent people for it's own benefit. (By America, I mean, those in power. ...and not the government :P)

Then again, Mexico wouldn't have the best of medical care... Interesting though.

Sofa_King Good · 02-05-2009 11:41am

marco_polo wrote: »

In short no. As the influenza virus is widespread across many species of birds and mammals albeir in a few different strains, we can be certain that it is not fussy about the minor details of the Human Genome (the differences between each of us are very minor because, believe it or not, humans are one of the least genetically diverse species around). From the point of view of the virus we are all but identical genetically, just another mammal whose cells it can use to reproduce itself.

Okay this is from a PNAC document "Rebuilding America's Defences"

notions of how conventional warfare will be conducted in the future, including the use of microbes and "advanced forms of biological warfare that can 'target' specific genotypes."...may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool”[/SIZE]

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3249.htm

And here are definitions of the mentioned "Genotypes"

The genetic makeup, as distinguished from the physical appearance, of an organism or a group of organisms.
The combination of alleles located on homologous chromosomes that determines a specific characteristic or trait.
http://www.answers.com/topic/genotype

And crucially,

hepatitis C virus genotype

Type: Term
Definitions:
1. genetic heterogeneity and divergence in the viral sequences produce at least six genotypes of HCV. Genotypes cluster geographically (e.g., genotypes 1a and 1b typically found in the United States and Europe, genotype 4 in Africa and the Middle East, genotypes 5 and 6 in Southeast Asia and South Africa). Response to interferon therapy depends on HCV genotype.
http://www.medilexicon.com/medicaldictionary.php?t=36803

This suggests to me that it appears that seperate populations can be biologically different.

King Mob · 02-05-2009 12:02pm

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

hepatitis C virus genotype

Type: Term
Definitions:
1. genetic heterogeneity and divergence in the viral sequences produce at least six genotypes of HCV. Genotypes cluster geographically (e.g., genotypes 1a and 1b typically found in the United States and Europe, genotype 4 in Africa and the Middle East, genotypes 5 and 6 in Southeast Asia and South Africa). Response to interferon therapy depends on HCV genotype.
http://www.medilexicon.com/medicaldictionary.php?t=36803

This suggests to me that it appears that seperate populations can be biologically different.

That's referring to the genotype of the virus, not the people it's infecting.

Sofa_King Good · 02-05-2009 12:12pm

and can this be reversed?

King Mob · 02-05-2009 12:14pm

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

and can this be reversed?

Not really because the quote you post is very specifically talking about the virus not the people it infects.

Sofa_King Good · 02-05-2009 9:13pm

King Mob wrote: »

Not really because the quote you post is very specifically talking about the virus not the people it infects.

OK. Forget about that. This should put it to bed.

Variations in the DNA sequences of humans can affect how humans develop diseases and respond to pathogens, chemicals, drugs, vaccines, and other agents. SNPs are also thought to be key enablers in realizing the concept of personalized medicine.[3]
However, their greatest importance in biomedical research is for comparing regions of the genome between cohorts (such as with matched cohorts with and without a disease).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_nucleotide_polymorphisms

Our findings reveal that specific polymorphic genotypes patterns may characterize defined populations even within relatively restricted geographical areas.

http://iadr.confex.com/iadr/2008Toronto/techprogram/abstract_102972.htm

Here is details that there are

King Mob · 02-05-2009 9:31pm

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

OK. Forget about that. This should put it to bed.

Unless of course you just misunderstood these.

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

Variations in the DNA sequences of humans can affect how humans develop diseases and respond to pathogens, chemicals, drugs, vaccines, and other agents. SNPs are also thought to be key enablers in realizing the concept of personalized medicine.[3]
However, their greatest importance in biomedical research is for comparing regions of the genome between cohorts (such as with matched cohorts with and without a disease).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_nucleotide_polymorphisms

Nothing there about viruses being able to be designed to target genetic markers.
There are many ways genes effect responses to pathogens chemicals etc.

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

http://iadr.confex.com/iadr/2008Toro...act_102972.htm

Here is details that there are

And it doesn't look that paper is actually talking about about viruses either.
It's talking about Cytokines, which I don't think spread like viruses. Maybe some one can explain it.

Sofa_King Good · 03-05-2009 12:48pm

I was trying to clarify that human beings have genetic differences which I thought was in doubt for some people.

GENETIC weapons capable of wiping out specific ethnic groups are no longer the stuff of science fiction, military and scientific advisers with the British and American governments have admitted.

Professor Vivienne Nathanson, head of the BMA's health policy research, said: "Biological weapons had limited use due to the shortcoming of being unspecific in targeting. "However, genetic targeting is now possible. Probably in the next five to 10 years we will see the manufacture of relatively specific biological weapons which are lethal in small volumes.

But G-bombs would use genetic markers specific only to particular races to trigger the virus...Scientists could manipulate the structure of the plague virus to attack only a person who had a race-specific DNA code

Dr Richard Falkenrath, an adviser to the US Department of Defence, said: "...The technology to create genetic weapons is already fairly commonplace. During routine detection work, the FBI's crime labs stumbled on genetic markers specific to blacks, whites, Hispanics and native Americans. Workby the Human Genetic Diversity Project, which collates information on the similarities and differences in ethnic groups, has found a genetic marker present in the DNA of Palestinians but not Israelis. "If you add together a number of different markers for different populations you can start to be specific to a target population," said Nathanson.

Once these markers are identified, a virus could be designed to look for them on entering the body. It would scan the DNA of cells looking for markers and if it found them it would insert itself into the host DNA and start the process of infection. Targeting technology already exists thanks to the race to find a cure for cancer.

All from here: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_19990509/ai_n13937769/?tag=content;col1

King Mob · 03-05-2009 12:59pm

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

I was trying to clarify that human beings have genetic differences which I thought was in doubt for some people.

All from here: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_19990509/ai_n13937769/?tag=content;col1

No one is denying there are genetic differences in different ethnicity.

All in all of those articles you quote they specifically mention that the virus is activated by genetic markers. The virus is active and causing symptoms in all races. So by those articles it can't be genetically targeted.

On and there's the little problem of no evidence showing it's a bioweapon.

You are just misunderstanding articles, looking for anything to confirm your belief.

Sofa_King Good · 03-05-2009 1:12pm

King Mob wrote: »

No one is denying there are genetic differences in different ethnicity.

All in all of those articles you quote they specifically mention that the virus is activated by genetic markers. The virus is active and causing symptoms in all races. So by those articles it can't be genetically targeted.

Except that viruses mutate and adapt uncontrollably.

King Mob wrote: »

On and there's the little problem of no evidence showing it's a bioweapon.

I reckon things like this would be hushed up.

potential such a weapon exists. I am just putting forward a suspect for further investigation.

There is moral governmental moral bankruptcy, means & motive, primarily from the pharmaceutical companies who stand to gain dramatically. And big pharma are one of the major special interest groups controlling Washington.

Secondly - The media furore over 12 deaths in a month doesn't add up at all. Operation Mockingbird has been in overdrive either to hush up other news or to promote Tamiflu & Vaccines.

A third motive is that this could be a test for future use biological weapon.

King Mob wrote: »

You are just misunderstanding articles, looking for anything to confirm your belief.

No, I am theorising. Do you doubt that such a weapon may be in existence

Sofa_King Good · 03-05-2009 1:18pm

King Mob wrote: »

No one is denying there are genetic differences in different ethnicity.

-

all is violent wrote: »

I'm 99% sure it is impossible to genetically engineer a virus to target one ethnic group considering there are no biological differences between races

King Mob · 03-05-2009 2:05pm

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

Except that viruses mutate and adapt uncontrollably.

Wow a targeted virus that isn't targeted. Sounds nice and unfalsifiable. And how do you know it was ever only affecting Mexicans?
And if it was so prone to mutation to lose it's targeting ability, why was it released so close to the US?

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

I reckon things like this would be hushed up.

So no you have no evidence. You just going on your own belief that the government is involved in everything.

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

potential such a weapon exists. I am just putting forward a suspect for further investigation.

Well given the evidence and lack there of you may as well put for the theory terrorist released the virus, or the KKK in an attempt to kill Obama. Or hell why not aliens?

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

There is moral governmental moral bankruptcy, means & motive, primarily from the pharmaceutical companies who stand to gain dramatically. And big pharma are one of the major special interest groups controlling Washington.

And how much exactly do they stand to gain?
There so far has been 872 confirmed cases with 550 probable one worldwide.
It's now starting to stabilise so on the outside there'll be maybe 2000-3000 hospitalisations.
Let's say, again on the outside, that treatment would cost 20000 dollars and all of that going to the pharma companies (which is ridiculously unlikely).
That would be about 60 million dollars.
How much would you think this targeted virus took to develop, then delivering it, then covering up every single piece of evidence of there involvement.
Doesn't sound profitable to me.

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

Secondly - The media furore over 12 deaths in a month doesn't add up at all. Operation Mockingbird has been in overdrive either to hush up other news or to promote Tamiflu & Vaccines.

Well if you mean the exact normal level of media sensationalism?

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

A third motive is that this could be a test for future use biological weapon.

Or it could be a test for a weapon against alien invasion.

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

No, I am theorising. Do you doubt that such a weapon may be in existence

No you're completely misunderstanding these articles.
I've had to point out to you they weren't talking about what you thought they were.
And given the fact that they had little or nothing to do with what you thought and that you quote the bastion of good science journalism that is the Sunday Herald. I'm going to guess you're just looking for any article with the key words: genetic marker, weapon and virus.

No one is denying there are genetic differences in different ethnicity.

I'm 99% sure it is impossible to genetically engineer a virus to target one ethnic group considering there are no biological differences between races

I stand corrected.

Undergod · 03-05-2009 3:13pm

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

potential such a weapon exists. I am just putting forward a suspect for further investigation.

Well it's evidence that viruses can be made to target ethnicities, but can flu do that?

In short no. As the influenza virus is widespread across many species of birds and mammals albeir in a few different strains, we can be certain that it is not fussy about the minor details of the Human Genome (the differences between each of us are very minor because, believe it or not, humans are one of the least genetically diverse species around). From the point of view of the virus we are all but identical genetically, just another mammal whose cells it can use to reproduce itself.

marco_polo seems to think not. Are there any links backing this up?

Sofa_King Good · 04-05-2009 6:32pm

Your misunderstanding me. Purposely or not I can't Imagine.

King Mob wrote: »

Wow a targeted virus that isn't targeted. Sounds nice and unfalsifiable. And how do you know it was ever only affecting Mexicans?

Look at the facts.

A quick calculation gave me

Non-Mexican Confirmed Cases:605
Number of Deaths: 0

Mexican Confirmed Cases: 701
Number of Deaths: 26 + the 1 Mexican in the US death.

World Cases vs Mexican Cases: 86.3%
Mexican proportion of deaths vs Worldwide figures: 100%

King Mob wrote: »

And if it was so prone to mutation to lose it's targeting ability, why was it released so close to the US?

Well if can work on the assumption that it was a field test surely it is advantageous to have the guinea pigs under your sphere of influence. All the Mexican samples were tested by the tax parasites that are the CDC.

King Mob wrote: »

So no you have no evidence. You just going on your own belief that the government is involved in everything.

No I am hypothesising. Unfortonately as are you but at least I can admit it. What belief are you going by?

King Mob wrote: »

Well given the evidence and lack there of you may as well put for the theory terrorist released the virus, or the KKK in an attempt to kill Obama. Or hell why not aliens?

The application would seem to be available and I would direct you towards the statistics again above.

King Mob wrote: »

And how much exactly do they stand to gain?
There so far has been 872 confirmed cases with 550 probable one worldwide.
It's now starting to stabilise so on the outside there'll be maybe 2000-3000 hospitalisations.
Let's say, again on the outside, that treatment would cost 20000 dollars and all of that going to the pharma companies (which is ridiculously unlikely).
That would be about 60 million dollars.
How much would you think this targeted virus took to develop, then delivering it, then covering up every single piece of evidence of there involvement.
Doesn't sound profitable to me.

I don't believe for a second you believe that.

What you are saying is that there is no profits to be made, in particular by big pharma - that's a joke.

King Mob wrote: »

Well if you mean the exact normal level of media sensationalism?

I don't believe you mean this either. If so, what in your view is the hysteria comparable to??

Best I can do is the complicit media's warmongering pre the illegal invasion and subsequent destruction of Iraq. A million people have died due to this. What in the world makes you think they value American lives any higher?

Swine Flu & Ethnic Targetting

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