Swine Flu & Ethnic Targetting

robtri

here's a nice read then for you....

http://politicolnews.com/genetically-engineered-n1-h1-pandemic/

and

http://inthesenewtimes.com/2009/04/30/is-swine-flu-a-race-specific-virus/

bonkey

The first article says that it is possible to genetically modify influenza virii - something no-one argues with, as far as I am aware.
It does on to say that the nature of this virus - that it contains aspects of avian, swine and human strains - points a finger at a group who modify influenza virii.

While this is an interesting line of discussion, it is entirely seperate to the notion that this - or any - influenza virus can be made ethnically targettable.

It is also seperate to the notion that this is a "test run" for some more deadly virus. If anything, it suggests the opposite, given that the people it connects to the virus are specialists on dealing with influenza.

The second article is a link to a prisonplanet article. It is, in effect, the same line of reasoning which began here....that because it may be possible to create genetically-targetted bio-weapons, it is reasonable to assume that this strain of influenza could be geneticall targetted. It brings nothing new to the table here...merely shows that other people are able to conflate "influenza" and "virus" in making their argument.

robtri

bonkey wrote: »

The first article says that it is possible to genetically modify influenza virii - something no-one argues with, as far as I am aware.
It does on to say that the nature of this virus - that it contains aspects of avian, swine and human strains - points a finger at a group who modify influenza virii.

While this is an interesting line of discussion, it is entirely seperate to the notion that this - or any - influenza virus can be made ethnically targettable.

It is also seperate to the notion that this is a "test run" for some more deadly virus. If anything, it suggests the opposite, given that the people it connects to the virus are specialists on dealing with influenza.

The second article is a link to a prisonplanet article. It is, in effect, the same line of reasoning which began here....that because it may be possible to create genetically-targetted bio-weapons, it is reasonable to assume that this strain of influenza could be geneticall targetted. It brings nothing new to the table here...merely shows that other people are able to conflate "influenza" and "virus" in making their argument.

well bonkey, I am afraid I seem to have misplaced the letter from the US military or large drug company that states all your needed answers...
as pointed out before this is the CT forum where Idea's and notions are supposed to flourish...

as I said before I don't believe this is a test run or there is anything underhand about it... I am just exploring the possibilities..

In Short...
We have the ability already to identify ethic groups from their DNA.
We have the ability to genetically modify Virus's(which include the FLu virus)
Ethnic specific virus's already exist in nature, rare as they maybe,

therefore it isn't a huge leap, to believe that we can replicate these naturally occuring ethnic specific virus's....

if you can accept this last statement, then the possibility exists that this virus and other virus's we have seen are man made virus's and possible ethnic specific virus's have been created.
if they have been created, then either by accident or on purpose, they can be released onto the general population

bonkey

robtri wrote: »

as pointed out before this is the CT forum where Idea's and notions are supposed to flourish...

Absolutely.

It should be remembered, however, that not all ideas are equal. There is no reason to ignore (glaring) problems with some ideas, just because they seem attractive or possible before one looks at them in detail.

as I said before I don't believe this is a test run or there is anything underhand about it... I am just exploring the possibilities..

And I'm showing the limitations and problems with those possibilities. Is that not an equally valid stance to take?

In Short...
We have the ability already to identify ethic groups from their DNA.
We have the ability to genetically modify Virus's(which include the FLu virus)
Ethnic specific virus's already exist in nature, rare as they maybe,

therefore it isn't a huge leap, to believe that we can replicate these naturally occuring ethnic specific virus's....

I'd be wary of the connection between "genetically targetted bio-weapons" and "ehtno-genetically targetted bio-weapons", but otherwise I'd say that this is a reasonable set of theoretical connections.

Just because we can (theoretically) create something that targets some genetic marker, doesn't necessarily mean we can target any genetic marker....but I'd quite happily accept that I don't know enough about genetic specifics to say where - if anywhere - such a line would be drawn.

if you can accept this last statement, then the possibility exists that this virus and other virus's we have seen are man made virus's and possible ethnic specific virus's have been created.

Here, I disagree. It entirely ignores how broad the classification "virus" is, and implicitly allows that if we can do something to some virus, we can do it to any virus.

Imagine if someone said to you that we can genetically modify a chicken so that it can fly. Does that mean we can genetically enhance any living creature so that it can fly? I would argue not....but I would say that its not a huge stretch to say that we could probably do the same to other flightless birds.

Similarily, if we can modify some virus so that its infection-mechanism is genetically targettable, then one could perhaps argue that we could do the same to any virus with a comparable infection mechanism.

This is the flaw I see with the arguments here and with the article from prisonplanet. It ignores this distinction...in effect saying that if we can genetically modify a chicken so that it can fly again, then pigs too can be made fly.

I've seen no end of articles about the notion that this virus is perhaps ethnically targetted...and you know what...every single one of them makes pigs fly. They ignore the variety that "virus" encompasses, and imply that if something is possible to do with one virus, then its not too big a stretch to suggest it about any virus.

Incidentally, the first non-Mexican victim of the flu died today....although she was apparently very ill anyway.

Ziycon

Is is possible that this is not just mother nature cleansing the population, if you look back over time there have been outbreaks to cull the population. Most recently was the Bird Flu, other examples would be Spanish Flu and TB??

robtri

bonkey wrote: »

Absolutely.

It should be remembered, however, that not all ideas are equal. There is no reason to ignore (glaring) problems with some ideas, just because they seem attractive or possible before one looks at them in detail.


And I'm showing the limitations and problems with those possibilities. Is that not an equally valid stance to take?


I'd be wary of the connection between "genetically targetted bio-weapons" and "ehtno-genetically targetted bio-weapons", but otherwise I'd say that this is a reasonable set of theoretical connections.

Just because we can (theoretically) create something that targets some genetic marker, doesn't necessarily mean we can target any genetic marker....but I'd quite happily accept that I don't know enough about genetic specifics to say where - if anywhere - such a line would be drawn.


Here, I disagree. It entirely ignores how broad the classification "virus" is, and implicitly allows that if we can do something to some virus, we can do it to any virus.

Imagine if someone said to you that we can genetically modify a chicken so that it can fly. Does that mean we can genetically enhance any living creature so that it can fly? I would argue not....but I would say that its not a huge stretch to say that we could probably do the same to other flightless birds.

Similarily, if we can modify some virus so that its infection-mechanism is genetically targettable, then one could perhaps argue that we could do the same to any virus with a comparable infection mechanism.

This is the flaw I see with the arguments here and with the article from prisonplanet. It ignores this distinction...in effect saying that if we can genetically modify a chicken so that it can fly again, then pigs too can be made fly.

I've seen no end of articles about the notion that this virus is perhaps ethnically targetted...and you know what...every single one of them makes pigs fly. They ignore the variety that "virus" encompasses, and imply that if something is possible to do with one virus, then its not too big a stretch to suggest it about any virus.

Incidentally, the first non-Mexican victim of the flu died today....although she was apparently very ill anyway.

you really have some very odd analogies... very odd...

Yes virus's are broad, but simplistic and they all belong to the same family..

bird and pigs don't.... and to make a chicken fly would require so much genetic modification, that it would no longer be a chicken...

and you haven't shown any limitations, actually you haven't shown anything to conteract a reasonable working idea/notion....

bonkey

robtri wrote: »

you really have some very odd analogies... very odd...

Perhaps, but I choose them for a reason. In this case, the reason was that I suspected it would prompt the very response that you have given here...

Yes virus's are broad, but simplistic and they all belong to the same family..

That would depend on what you mean by "family". THere are 5 identified orders of viruses. Using the official taxonomy, those 5 groups contain 82 seperate families of virus. With over 3000 known types not yet classified, its possible that this will increase.

As for being "simplistic", I would ask you to consider that a virus may have DNA, RNA, or both. For those with DNA, they may have a single strand of DNA, or double strands, or double-strands with single-stranded regions. That alone is a degree of variety which animal life cannot even attempt to match. All known animal life is double-stranded DNA.

to make a chicken fly would require so much genetic modification, that it would no longer be a chicken...

Exactly. Would the same not be true of virii - that changing a flu virus significantly would make it no longer a flu virus?

and you haven't shown any limitations, actually you haven't shown anything to conteract a reasonable working idea/notion....

The idea/notion which has been presented overlooks the vast, vast differences that exist amongst and between the organisms that we classify as viruses. It has made the blithe assumption that if something is theoretically possible to achieve using viruses, then its reasonable to suggest that its possible with influenza.

I'm pointing out that this is not a million miles from saying that if we can make a chicken fly, then we can make pigs fly too.

Indeed, I should more correctly say that if we can make some flightless animal fly, then we can make pigs fly too.

In my example, you spotted exactly what I hoped you would - the diversity between animals. The point I'm making is that the diversity between viruses is enormous. Depending on how you measure such things, you could easily argue that there is greater differences to be found amongst virual organisms than amongst animal lifeforms.


In short, I'm arguing that we don't have a reasonable idea / working notion. We have one which superficially seems plausible, but which ignores a number of significant factors when we look at it more closely.

Undergod

Ziycon wrote: »

Is is possible that this is not just mother nature cleansing the population, if you look back over time there have been outbreaks to cull the population. Most recently was the Bird Flu, other examples would be Spanish Flu and TB??

Nature doesn't work like that. Nature isn't aware of how many people there are.

uncleoswald

Undergod wrote: »

Nature doesn't work like that. Nature isn't aware of how many people there are.

You obviously haven't seen The Happening. You should, its hilarious.

Undergod

Use science, douchebag!

uncleoswald

The "use science douchbag" line was just a quote from the movie we were talking about and I don't think it was directed at anyone in particular.

Unless of course he got a red card because the mods really really hate the movie.

tallaght01

Ignoring the technical difficulties with targetting an influenza to Mexicans, American and Canadian DNA....you'd wanna be one ballsy bastard risking that with something that mutates as often as the flu!!!

I have to get a new flu vaccine every year because it mutates so often!

One minute you'd be targeting it towards Mexicans, next second it'd be wiping out you eskimo population :P

Undergod

uncleoswald wrote: »

The "use science douchbag" line was just a quote from the movie we were talking about and I don't think it was directed at anyone in particular.

Unless of course he got a red card because the mods really really hate the movie.

Yeah, that's it, wasn't intended as an insult to anyone.

Sofa_King Good

King Mob wrote: »

And how much and for where exactly would big pharma make this money?

Firms Look to Prevent Swine Flu Pandemic, Turn a Profit

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/SwineFlu/story?id=7443409&page=1

Sofa_King Good

as above.

LOS ANGELES, April 24 (Reuters) - The swine flu outbreak is likely to benefit one of the most prolific and successful venture capital firms in the United States: Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, Thomson Reuters Private Equity Week reported on Friday.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/governmentFilingsNews/idUKN2445216420090424

King Mob

Wow that proves it.
There's no other reason for that to happen.
Except that legitimate investors decided to invest in a industry that might have been in high demand.

Well at least you have all that scientific and physical evidence to fall back on.

Sofa_King Good

King Mob wrote: »

Wow that proves it.
There's no other reason for that to happen.
Except that legitimate investors decided to invest in a industry that might have been in high demand.

Well at least you have all that scientific and physical evidence to fall back on.

you asked the question ffs!

King Mob

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

you asked the question ffs!

Fair enough, but have no evidence whatsoever that the flu was caused to turn those profits.

Sofa_King Good

King Mob wrote: »

Fair enough, but have no evidence whatsoever that the flu was caused to turn those profits.

And there we meet our impasse I think.

It was just musing. All I said was

Sofa_King Good OP wrote: »

So it can't be discounted as impossible. Any thoughts?

King Mob

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

And there we meet our impasse I think.

It was just musing. All I said was

And as I have said: it's not impossible that this virus was spread by aliens.

Both that and you theory are about as equally likely.
And supported by the exact same amount of evidence.

tatabubbly

Well, in my opinion this virus was set loose by some big pharmacutical or medical agency.... Does anyone else notice how much money is being pumped into these companies for "flu vaccines" and "facemasks"...

Ya that's not odd at all in the middle of a recession..

As a science student, i'd say it is entirely plausable that swine flu could be a target for mexicans due to the delicate nature of DNA.. I'm pretty sure each ethnical diversity group has it's own DNA markers or genetic sequences which are common for a certain ethnic group...

King Mob

tatabubbly wrote: »

Well, in my opinion this virus was set loose by some big pharmacutical or medical agency.... Does anyone else notice how much money is being pumped into these companies for "flu vaccines" and "facemasks"...

Ya that's not odd at all in the middle of a recession..

As a science student, i'd say it is entirely plausable that swine flu could be a target for mexicans due to the delicate nature of DNA.. I'm pretty sure each ethnical diversity group has it's own DNA markers or genetic sequences which are common for a certain ethnic group...

And as a physics student I'd say it is entirely plausible that it was an alien invasion plot!
A viral attack would be the cheapest and easiest way to take us over.
Obviously they underestimated our immune system.

Bet you have just as much evidence as I have.

tatabubbly

King Mob wrote: »

And as a physics student I'd say it is entirely plausible that it was an alien invasion plot!
A viral attack would be the cheapest and easiest way to take us over.
Obviously they underestimated our immune system.

Bet you have just as much evidence as I have.

They clearly underestimated the power of the innate immune system.

But if it was an alien invasion would there not be engineered parts of the viral dsRNA? dsRNA is how viruses replicate in our body and in general, as the messenger DNA, it would be easier to spot engineered DNA..

Could you imagine the uproar though if it was engineered?? I would not like to be in that research teams position anyway :eek:

King Mob

tatabubbly wrote: »

They clearly underestimated the power of the innate immune system.

But if it was an alien invasion would there not be engineered parts of the viral dsRNA? dsRNA is how viruses replicate in our body and in general, as the messenger DNA, it would be easier to spot engineered DNA..

Could you imagine the uproar though if it was engineered?? I would not like to be in that research teams position anyway :eek:

And does such evidence of engineering exist?

tatabubbly

King Mob wrote: »

And does such evidence of engineering exist?

I would believe so. As soon as the human genome was sequenced, it allowed people to begin to decifer what gene was for what. And since scienists know so much about viruses now, the machinery they use in the body, it's entirely plausible that an engineered strain of the influena virus could be achieved.

King Mob

tatabubbly wrote: »

I would believe so. As soon as the human genome was sequenced, it allowed people to begin to decifer what gene was for what. And since scienists know so much about viruses now, the machinery they use in the body, it's entirely plausible that an engineered strain of the influena virus could be achieved.

I not asking if it was possible. I was asking if the virus actually had any signs of being engineered?
Does it?

tatabubbly

I don't think so.... well not at the minute from what i know!

One of the labs in our college are looking at it!

King Mob

tatabubbly wrote: »

I don't think so.... well not at the minute from what i know!

One of the labs in our college are looking at it!

And if that evidence doesn't actually exist yet (and mightn't). How can you conclude that this flu virus was genetically engineered to target an ethnicity?

tatabubbly

Just my thoughts on it!
Your alien invasion conspiracy is as valid as mine!

King Mob

tatabubbly wrote: »

Just my thoughts on it!
Your alien invasion conspiracy is as valid as mine!

Or anything else I made up off the top of my head.