The others...

Kipperhell: the point of the thread is not to respond to your own post. But to respond to what theists are saying about you. I don't want this to end up being a meaningless antagonistic debate. I'm writing my points to the people who have discussed theism. It's about trying to actually learn from eachother instead of just attacking the opposite position.

Zamboni wrote: »

Belief system: N/A

Why do you think Christians are Christians.

1. The majority were introduced into it from birth. Old habits etc.
2. Scared of mortality (which is fair enough, it sucks).

1. Introduction doesn't secure belief. I don't think birth adequately explains converts and so on. Introduction personally only brought me to a very limited understanding of Christianity. Personal study of the Biblical text is what allows one to have a complete understanding of the Christian hypothesis. I find it a relatively weak reason.

2. This is a reason I don't particularly understand. I follow God because I love what God has been revealed to me as. If I did not have an afterlife, I still would believe in God and Jesus Christ. We have a life to live here right now. I was reading the Scriptures last night (Philippians ch 1) and Paul registers with me entirely on this point:

Philippians 1:21-26 wrote:

For me living is Christ, and dying is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labour for me; and i do not know which I prefer. I am hard pressed between the two: my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is better; but to remain in the flesh is more necessary for you. Since I am convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with all of you for your progress and joy in your faith, so that I may share abundantly in your boasting in Christ Jesus when I come to you again.

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Why do you believe religious people are religious:

1. They're raised to believe it is true.
2. Human biology.
3. They don't think about it enough/don't know enough about how the universe works.
4. Where there is a question as yet unanswerable, they seek to create one.

Where 3 is not applicable, 2 explains why this is so.

1. See my first point to Zamboni.

2. Why aren't we all believers if we are biologically predetermined to be so?

3. I agree that some don't. I have personally given my beliefs a lot of consideration, and I am still thinking about how best to apply them etc. It's generally something I leave a good bit of time for to read the Scriptures, and to talk and share with other believers.

4. This implies the Gospel is manufactured, no Christian would ever advocate this. We'd generally attribute this to divine revelation. However, I did deal with the most likely objection you would have to that in my original post.

dvpower wrote: »

1) They were born into it.
2) They haven't really questioned their beliefs.
3) Billions of other religious people on the planet can't possibly be wrong.
4) Competing (non theist) beliefs don't adequately explain how we became to be / the meaning of life.
5) They are reluctant to question their beliefs for fear of upsetting God.
6) Eternal life is a sweet, sweet deal.
7) Life without some higher power / reason seems meaningless.
8) They have faith.

1. See my first point to Zamboni.

2. See my third point to ChocolateSauce.

3. I find this a foolish argument to propose. I may have done so in my history on Boards.ie, however numbers does not equal truth. This isn't a proper reason to suggest that Christianity is any more through than any other belief system that exists.

4. Agreed here, I would use this reason.

5. I amn't reluctant. As I've said in another thread here recently I have doubted my faith several times. I love God, and God knows the true feelings of my heart (yes MrPudding, the organ that pumps blood around my body ), and I think he would prefer that I be honest with him if I am having difficulty in my faith.

6. See point 2 to Zamboni.

7. I agree here, it does seem rather meaningless.

8. That I do. I may need to explain what faith means though. A friend of mine at CU in college explained it very well:

Faith is accepting the evidence, believing in it, and acting upon it.

This could cause major disagreement but wait until I open up round three for rebuttals.

LookingFor wrote: »

1) Life without God is pointless and futile
2) There must be an afterlife
3) The world cannot have simply popped out of nothing or out of undirected/unintended/undesigned processes
4) My immortal soul depends on my faith
5) My faith gives me consolation in difficult times
6) My faith helps me give meaning to my life and world
7) The positive benefits of the above feed back into my faith like a virtuous circle, reinforcing my faith as evidence for it
8) My religion is ancient/well-subscribed, it would not have endured if it were not true.
9) Somewhat similar to 8), I defer and respect the wisdom of my forebearers who subscribe to this religion, thus I do too, and I'm not in a position to question it.

1. I would hold this reason.

2 & 4: See point 2 to Zamboni.

3: I agree, this is what caused a lot of anger in another thread. Good that you have been listening to me

5: It does, this is quite well substantiated in King Davids Psalms.

6: Yes, I would also hold this reason.

7: I'm not sure if I would give as much credence to the view of circular logic. I would regard this as spiritual experience perhaps, as in reason 4 on my signature.

8. See point 3 to dvpower.

9. Antiquity, forebearers etc are not equivalent to validity or truth.

sink wrote: »

Belief system: Humanist

How do you think that theists justify being theists?

Lower standards for determining facts coupled with wishful thinking.

I don't think I have a lower standard for facts to anybody else. I have no reason to. I often employ skepticism in here, as I did in the previous thread that got heated up concerning the posts that people had given me. It didn't end up well.

taram wrote: »

1. Knowing a deity is there for them in hard times is comforting
2. Having faith that Jesus died to give eternal life, so they and their loved ones can go to heaven and have eternal life, which helps ease fears around death
3. They can see the wonder and beauty in the world around them and believe that God placed it there for their life and enjoyment which would make them happy
4. Having consolation that evil people will suffer in the afterlife for their sins

2. See point 2 to Zamboni.

3. The sophistication of the earth is a good reason to believe:

Romans 1:19-22 wrote:

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things He has made. So they are without excuse, for though they knew God; they did not honour Him as God or give thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools.

4. Yes, I do believe that those who transgress God's commandments will be punished, however I would far prefer for them to receive Jesus Christ and to be saved. I although a sinner have been saved through Jesus' grace. I would expect the same to be for the one who has wronged me. I'm no better than the evilest of evil, we are both fallen in God's sight.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

It depends on the believer.
I suspect people like you, PDN, Jimi, Fanny, Noel belief for the following reasons:
1. You believe there are philosophical arguments for their being a creator.
2. You believe that there is historical evidence to support your views. The Gospels are accurare historical texts.
3. You have seen it (what you perceive as Christianity) in action change other people's lifes in an amazing and positive way.
4. It has made your own life far far better.

1. Yes I do.

2. Yes I do.

3. I have experienced it and I have seen God work through others through my interactions with them. I've had the pleasure of having strong links with other Christians through university and so on.

4. Yes it has since I repented and allowed myself to become Christ's own.

Dades wrote: »

Me: Atheist

Why, if I believed, do I believe?

- I've never known anything but belief
- If God didn't make us, who did?
- It says so in the bible.
- How could a few billion believers be wrong?

1. I have known disbelief, I've known life where I was far off from God.

2. I would ask this question too, but it isn't really a reason, it doesn't give us any more bearing towards what did cause our existence.

3. The Bible is the hypothesis, it isn't the reason for believing in it.

4. See point 2 to Zamboni.

Overblood wrote: »

1. Because I don't like the idea of death being the end of everything I am. I want to live on after I die, and bask in paradise. Forever.

2. It's nice to know that somebody up there is watching over me, showing interest in me, protecting me.

3. Skilfully cherry-picked, the bible has many passages of good moral guidance that I can live by.

4. Church fosters good community spirit.

5. My parents are Christian, I was born into a Christian family, I shall follow in their footsteps.

6. I feel sorry for Jesus, he died for me.

7. If there is no God, then what is there? I can't live with this uncertainty.

8. Knowing that I have a god-given purpose makes me feel happy.

1. See point 2 to Zamboni.

2. Yes, it is.

3. Are they skillfully cherry picked? I believe God is just and righteous even when He is punishing the Israelites for their sins and casting them out of the Holy Land. Sometimes punishment has to be sharp to bear forth repentance. Or a godly grief as Paul calls it.

4. Really depends on the church. If I had cases of terrible church experiences to cite this reason wouldn't go very far.

5. See point 1 to Zamboni. There is a point where one has to decide for themselves. You can't rely on Mum and Dad forever, you have to repackage your beliefs for yourself, and you have to honestly think about what you believe.

6. Jesus was the Son of God, divine in the flesh. I don't feel sorry for Him, rather I feel a great joy that I have been saved by His flesh, and that I have a new chance to put myself right according to His teachings. I'm eternally grateful. It's like what Jesus prophesied in the Gospel of John:

John 16:20 wrote:

Very truly, I tell you, you will weep and mourn, but the world will rejoice; you will have pain, but your pain will turn into joy

.

You'll find in early Christian art, the cross was not depicted very often if at all. It gained precedence as time went on, as the feeling of pain was lifted and the cross became something of pride, not of fear or sadness.

7. I honestly don't think this is a real reason. Just because I can't deal with agnosticism doesn't mean that Christianity is true.

8. It makes me feel fulfilled, and it gives me a drive to do what I do. Sometimes I slip and fail. That makes me feel annoyed sometimes. Christianity isn't all about happiness, and enjoyment. We will experience testing and trials.

liah wrote: »

1.) Belief in a higher being helps me better deal with my inner insecurities. If I believe that someone is watching out for me and has a greater plan, I actually have a chance of making something of myself, because without that I would be too frightened and insecure to continue.

2.) I was raised this way. I was spoonfed this since I was a tiny child, it is ingrained into my system to be unquestioning in my faith.

3.) It seems unlikely to me that there will ever be a scientific explanation for the creation of the universe as we currently know it (even though science taught us about the universe as we currently know it.. whoops, flippance coming out, my bad).

4.) I am scared that if I mess up this life, if I lost my belief system I would have no second chance. I feel that restraining myself from some basic pleasures in life and keeping myself pure in the eyes of the Lord will give me a second chance in the afterlife and I will not need to fear death. The idea of a second chance keeps me going through hardships.

1. No human can truly be truly fulfilled without God. We are all fallen beings who have rejected God's grace and have missed His plan for us.

2. See point 1 to Zamboni, and point 5 to Overblood. I have also dealt with questioning and doubt, I disagree with you outright.

3. Unlikelihood doesn't really matter surely? If God is real if a scientific explanation did emerge it would be confirming His glory? However I would agree with this point by and large. I don't think we will solve all the answers concerning cosmology. I'd like to be proven wrong though.

4. See point 2 to Zamboni

Just to finish, being a theist is not shutting off your brain. You have many many great academics and scholars who are Christians. It's a bit condascending to engage in that isn't it?

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

1. My family and friends share the same Religion as me. Celebrating it with them makes me feel part of the whole
2. The Bible IS de facto a Holy book inspired by God, and as it says God exists and I will achieve eternal existence if I follow Jesus' example I must obey it.
3. So many people have a religion or belief of some kind, this is evidence that we want to know about God. God has instilled this desire in us because he exists.
4. Humans appreciate the beauty of the world, we have been given such a variety of food and sounds and feelings that this world must of been made by God for humans to enjoy.
5. I have lost people close to me or fear my coming death. Death is not natural, I know this, therefore the promise that God has made of immortality must be real.

1. See point 2 to Zamboni, point 5 to Overblood.

2. See point 3 to Dades.

3. See point 8 to LookingFor.

4. See point 2 to taram.

5. See point 2 to Zamboni.

toiletduck wrote: »

1 - Faith
2 - The sense of community at the church. The goodwill and good works done by same.
3 - Death can't be the end, what happens to our souls?
4 - A real sense of being in the presence of the Lord on pilgrimages, in Novenas etc. Perhaps a perceived spiritual experience?
5 - I'm a better person since embracing God

1. See point 8 to dvpower.

2. See point 4 to Overblood.

3. See point 2 to Zamboni.

4. See point 7 to LookingFor.

5. See point 4 to TimRobbins.

Kipperhell wrote: »

What people say when they believe in Christianity
1) It makes sense that we were created by God as how else would we be here
2) The Bible tells us there is a God
3) People who have studied all the text understand how the text fits together and don't contradict
4) I feel good when I am praying/participating in religion this is a miracle of god
5) There is morality which wouldn't exist without God
6) God has helped me through tough times
7) There are miracles and beauty around me like sunsets that prove God
8) The message of a Christian God wouldn't have spread unless it was true
9) Why would the churches have been set-up unless there was actually a miracle of resurrection
10) People died preaching the word so it has to be true because why else would they do this?
11) Miracles happen I have seen them
12) I have faith and science doesn't answer everything
13) Nobody knows and I am sticking with what I was raised with as a good moral code
14) I could not live knowing this is all there is

1. I'd hold this position.

2. See point 3 to Dades

3. Indeed, I hold this reason.

4. See point 7 to LookingFor.

5. I agree, see C.S Lewis' Mere Christianity on this.

6. See point 5 to LookingFor.

7. See point 3 to taram.

8. Success doesn't equal truth. I'd hold that myself. I do think that this reason is valid, and is a pretty good platform for assessing the motives of the disciples post-Jesus on earth.

9. I use this argument myself.

10. Well, people can die for a lie. However, I doubt they would have continued for as long if they believed it to be a lie. This is quite convincing considering they knew Jesus in the flesh for 3 years. See the link in my sig on this.

11. I'm not sure if seeing them is much of a bearing. People could well think you are deluded. I personally never have born witness to a miracle to the likes that PDN has described. However, given the rarity of miracles, I don't see why I should have to see a miracle to believe if there are other good reasons for belief.

12. Science does answer a lot however. Religion deals with metaphysics, Science deals with the natural world and what we can see it doesn't account for abstract things like God.

13. Not all Christians were raised with the moral code of Christianity. Some come from the most oppressive regimes in the world. It is an argument, but it is not a universal argument. Then again on a personal level it could be fine. I'm probably a bit broadminded.

14. Just because you couldn't live doesn't have any bearing on the truth. See point 7 to Overblood.

MrPudding wrote: »

* I simply cannot conceive how something as wondrous and complex as the world we know could come about by chance.
* There have been so many believers before me that they can’t all be wrong.
* So many people have terrible lives, there most be something better for them afterwards.
* I was born into it. It is comfortable now, like a pair of old slippers.
* I get comfort from knowing god is watching over me.
* I know that any suffering I have will be made good in the next life. All the loss I endure here will be made better.
* I believe that the bible is the word of god.
* Were it not for god my life would suck. (cue Kelly Clarkson song)
* Were it not for god we would not know right form wrong and the world would descend into chaos.

1. I hold this position.

2. See both points 8 and 9 to LookingFor.

3. See point 2 to Zamboni.

4. See point 1 to Zamboni.

5. See point 2 to Overblood.

6. See point 2 to Zamboni. Although the account of the New Earth and the New Jerusalem does effectively say this in Revelations 21:

Revelations 21:4 wrote:

He will wipe every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; mourning and crying and pain will be no more, for the first things have passed away.

7. See point 4 to Tim Robbins.

5uspect wrote: »

Why do devout Christians believe what they believe?

Everything had to come from somewhere.
A world without absolute Truth/Love is not worth living in.
I really feel or know that it's true.
There is "evidence" to back me up.
It is rational and open minded.
God is what separates us from the animals.
My faith helped me through a rough patch in my life.
The beauty/design of the world convinces me everyday.
The Bible confirmed what I feel.


Why do average Christians believe what they believe?

I don't really think about it.
I was raised as a Christian, it is my culture/heritage.
The vast majority of the people in the world can't all be wrong!
I want to go to heaven and be with my family.
When I pray for something, Jesus helps me.
Why wouldn't you believe? Who does it hurt?

I think it's important to make a distinction too.

1. I hold this position.

2. It doesn't matter whether it is worth living in or not, it matters whether or not this is actually the world you are living in in reality. Truth is more important than fiction.

3. See point 7 to LookingFor.

4. Yes, I think there is.

5. Yes, I'd hold this as a reason.

6. Well yes, God is what separated us from the animals according to the Biblical text I suppose:

Genesis 1:26-27 wrote:

Then God said, 'Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of thesea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.'. So God creatd humankind in His image, in the image of God He created them; male and female He created them'

7. See point 4 to Tim Robbins.

8. See point 3 to taram.

9. Interesting point. I would hold that the spiritual experiences we would have are similar to those that are accounted for in the Bible.

10. See point 3 to ChocolateSauce.

11. See point 1 to Zamboni.

12. See point 2 to Zamboni.

13. This touches on other points, but Christianity isn't in the majority. Currently it is roughly 2 billion, or 33% of the worlds population.

14. See point 2 to Zamboni.

15. Ah Pascals Wager, just because you're willing to take a gamble does not mean that you have a full conviction that Jesus Christ is raised from the dead. It does not mean that it is something that you are willing to defend (Ephesians 6), or that you will not be tossed about in the wind if your conviction isn't deeply founded (Ephesians 4).

Naz_st wrote: »

1) I am important. I have a purpose. My life is not meaningless. The world around me as seen through my eyes and from my consciousness is unique. No one else sees it. No one else understands it. No one else knows what it looks like. My position in the world, in the universe itself, is special. This, to me, implies a divine artificer with a plan for His creation.

2) Personal experience. Every so often, even if only for a brief moment, I conceive of something more than my senses are physically showing me. I perceive of something just on the edge of consciousness that makes my skin prickle and the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I am at once unconnected from the "material" world and uniquely aware of it's entirety. It brings an undeniable calm and certain knowledge that the universe is unfolding just as it should. This knowledge and this moment implies that there is a higher purpose to the direction of the universe and my place in it.

3) At some point during the very mundane, biological development of the human brain, something arises that is more than the sum total of the individual cells and neurons and synapses deliver, something found in only one place (that we know of) in the vast cosmic arena: consciousness. Where does this come from and how does it arise? If it arises subsequent to the basic biological building blocks, doesn't this imply that we are more than a mere bag of cells and chemicals? Is this not the soul?

1. See point 8 to Overblood.

2. I agree here, it's one of the arguments I've used frequently. The only danger in using it is that other people cannot relate to it. Much like the ontological argument. It is within your personal realm and it cannot be assessed by the external world.

3. Very philosophical indeed well done . The Mind / Body dilemma is one that personally interests me a lot. The soul is a hard thing to define sometimes. I believe the soul contains the attributes that we use in our spiritual relationship with God.

kiffer wrote: »

○ I was down/depressed/lost, I couldn't seem to get my life together, I prayed/asked for help and once I felt that I wasn't in it all alone I managed to pull my life together... I don't know where I got the strength from... It must have been God.
• The world seems pretty harsh, humans seem like they should be basically good but so many of them seem like jerks... in fact... they seem like scum... when it comes down to it that whole humans are fallen sinners thing makes a lot of sense... children these days seem so much worse than when I was a child, that's a clear sign of moral decay...
○ The teachings of Christ say things like love your enemy which fits my idea that people should be nice... as I read more it got more complicated but all seemed pretty good, turn the other cheek, get to go to heaven, saved from hell... not sure I like the idea of hell but at this point I've got to accept that this chap knows what he's talking about... after all he helped me out when I needed him...
• I believe some things are absolutely morally wrong (it doesn't matter what specifically), I think absolute morality does not make sense without a higher power to dictate it...
○ The Church provides me a vital sense of community, I've made some fast friends here, they're nice people... they put me straight on somethings I misunderstood about God... a lot of great minds have believed in this and they've slotted it all together like a puzzle...
• If I'm wrong about this I could go back to how I was before... if it's not true then I might lose that strength and end up worse than before.
○ If there's no God, then where did it all come from? I mean ultimately there needs to be a prime mover right? God exists, the Bible says he's the Creator... so that fits... doesn't it?

1. Many people do use this argument. I personally consider my life to be far better as a Christian than it ever could have been as an agnostic, or as an atheist if I ever got that far down the road. See point 4 to Tim Robbins.

2. The world seeming harsh could be a very very good reason to discredit a loving God as in my original post. It isn't something that is incredibly useful to argue. We are all fallen sinners, but this doesn't mean that we are "scum", or that there isn't an intrinsic value in human life particularly when God is involved.

3. Well, doing things which are beneficial to others is beneficial to society. It isn't an argument that Christianity is true. As many of you have said here before, one could argue that one can be good from a secular perspective. It's a bit of a slippery argument. However if we see being good, as being good by God's standards and not the standards of mere man this makes sense. For the afterlife consult my point to Zamboni (point 2).

4. Well, relative morality really doesn't make much sense when you think about it logically.

5. See point 4 to Overblood.

6. This isn't a reason. If you are wrong about it, you are simply just that wrong. Perhaps I'm being a bit too pragmatic about it.

7. Major question I ask myself all the time. However the Bible is a hypothesis that is to be backed up.

Long post, I know, but you might see that the reasoning of a theist, is not all that different to the reasoning of an atheist when put down to it.

liah and Kipperhell: I explained my reasoning perfectly. There are plenty of non-theists who aren't as sure as you. Infact Sam Vimes used to criticise me for saying that atheists believed that there was no God. He retorted saying that atheists didn't know, but didn't have any reason to assume one. Then there are atheists who consider themselves agnostic atheists. It seems to put the non-belief house in one set I guess. Going much more than "seems to" might be too sure for many agnostic atheists (as they describe themselves). I'm not going to get into a discussion or a debate about this issue. This is just to clarify. Arguing about mere pettiness like this is merely detracting from the actual content of the discussion.