The others...

philologos

I'm looking for a thread of some form of conciliation here. The point of this thread is to explain why you think that the others believe what they do. For the purposes of this, I would like all theists, to explain why atheists or agnostics believe what they believe, and I would like all non-theists (atheists, agnostics, deists) to attempt to explain why the theist believes what they believe (lets leave it to Christianity for now, but if any Muslims etc post feel free to discuss why they believe what they believe). However, I do not want any theist, to outline why other theists believe what they believe, but rather to explain why the non-theists don't believe. Likewise, I do not want any non-theist to explain why other non-theists believe what they do. Straight forward?

Then after doing this, I want the people being discussed to add any other reasons they can think of to the post. I do not want a debate to arise, but merely a contribution of reasons, and of correction if necessary by those being discussed.

Try to keep it to the following format:

Your belief system: Christian

Why do you think atheists are athiests?:
How do you think that atheists justify being atheist?

1) God seems incompatible with evolutionary biology and modern physics.
2) Pain and suffering cannot exist in the same world as an omnipotent omnibenificent.
3) The church is hypocritical, and abuses have arisen out of it.
4) Christians are hypocritical.
5) Christians are judgemental.
6) It seems hard to accept a universal moral system, that is so closed minded.
7) It's offensive to believe that Jesus is the only way to save ones soul from hell.
8) Faith seems stupid because Christians don't think about what they believe.
9) Miracles seem absurd.
10) Faith seems to breed fanatics, such as suicide bombers, and abortion clinic bombers.
11) Faith seems to be a barrier to a completely secular society.
12) Faith seems to cause hatred and division.
13) Faith seems to breed arrogance.
14) Christians seem to impose standards on non-Christians.
15) God seems to be a monster in certain parts of the Torah, and the historical books.
16) There seems to be a diachotomy between the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament.
17) The Bible seems to be riddled with contradictions.
18) Christianity seems to be too patriarchal.
19) Christianity seems to deny personal freedoms.
20) I have never felt any spiritual experience, as such I have no evidence to believe that they occur.
21) Prayer seems to fall on deaf ears.
22) We have no assurances that divine revelation took place.
23) Christianity seems to be based on archaic moral norms, we need to move on.

I think that I have exhausted them, have a go and then add any to my list if you want.

Zamboni

Belief system: N/A

Why do you think Christians are Christians.

1. The majority were introduced into it from birth. Old habits etc.
2. Scared of mortality (which is fair enough, it sucks).

ChocolateSauce

Belief system: Scientific Method

Why do you believe religious people are religious:

1. They're raised to believe it is true.
2. Human biology.
3. They don't think about it enough/don't know enough about how the universe works.
4. Where there is a question as yet unanswerable, they seek to create one.

Where 3 is not applicable, 2 explains why this is so.

philologos

ChocolateSauce, and Zamboni, it's my fault for not making this clear. However when I said give reasons for why the other would believe. The point of this was so that you could step into the others shoes, and think of reasons why they would accept the belief system they have chosen in their own words. I don't believe that any of the reasons I gave for why atheists believe what they do are really valid in reality, I gave them to allow to try and understand the way that other people think about them. The question that I answered in the OP was probably not really a good one to use as a template, so I will edit it.

dvpower

Your belief system: Atheist

Why do you think Christians are Christians?:

1) They were born into it.
2) They haven't really questioned their beliefs.
3) Billions of other religious people on the planet can't possibly be wrong.
4) Competing (non theist) beliefs don't adequately explain how we became to be / the meaning of life.
5) They are reluctant to question their beliefs for fear of upsetting God.
6) Eternal life is a sweet, sweet deal.
7) Life without some higher power / reason seems meaningless.
8) They have faith.

LookingFor

My belief system: Not sure/NA

Why believers would say they believe:

1) Life without God is pointless and futile
2) There must be an afterlife
3) The world cannot have simply popped out of nothing or out of undirected/unintended/undesigned processes
4) My immortal soul depends on my faith
5) My faith gives me consolation in difficult times
6) My faith helps me give meaning to my life and world
7) The positive benefits of the above feed back into my faith like a virtuous circle, reinforcing my faith as evidence for it
8) My religion is ancient/well-subscribed, it would not have endured if it were not true.
9) Somewhat similar to 8), I defer and respect the wisdom of my forebearers who subscribe to this religion, thus I do too, and I'm not in a position to question it.


..

This is a tricky exercise mind you, since everyone's different..and everyone thinks differently about things. So I suppose we should be mindful that we can't generalise all folks and what they're thinking. I know as a sceptic certainly that many of the things Jakass list don't apply to me, and similarly I know some of the things listed for as what believers may think aren't going to apply to all believers.

sink

Belief system: Humanist

How do you think that theists justify being theists?

Lower standards for determining facts coupled with wishful thinking.

philologos

Again guys. The point of this was to give the reasons that you think that theists actually think are reasons for their faith. It was aimed to be as a get into the others shoes exercise.

LookingFor has done this well so far, and I actually thought about how atheists would justify their atheism in my OP. It isn't really effective if we look at how atheists explain why theists are the way they are.

Feel free to assess the reasons I have given for how atheists justify atheism and to add others as suggestions when looking at my list.

sink

Jakkass wrote: »

Again guys. The point of this was to give the reasons that you think that theists actually think are reasons for their faith. It was aimed to be as a get into the others shoes exercise.

LookingFor has done this well so far, and I actually thought about how atheists would justify their atheism in my OP. It isn't really effective if we look at how atheists explain why theists are the way they are.

Feel free to assess the reasons I have given for how atheists justify atheism and to add others as suggestions when looking at my list.

Taking reference from LookingFor in simply trying to think like a "believer" I feel a massive disconnection with my logic and reasoning and it is quiet uncomfortable almost claustrophobic, I have to close my mind to so much. It seems that my inability to think like and accept anything on that list is the reason I'm an atheist, more so than anything on your list Jackass.

LookingFor

It's not always easy to empathise..but uncomfortable as it may be, to put yourself in someone else's shoes is often an exercise in opening the mind, not so much closing it.

philologos

sink wrote: »

Taking reference from LookingFor in simply trying to think like a "believer" I feel a massive disconnection with my logic and reasoning and it is quiet uncomfortable almost claustrophobic, I have to close my mind to so much. It seems that my inability to think like and accept anything on that list is the reason I'm an atheist, more so than anything on your list Jackass.

If I'm not even able to do this in good humour then what can be done in theist - atheist dialogue. I've tried my best to take my OP from an atheists point of view and I even offered for further discussion on the points that I and others have raised.

You really don't have to close your mind, but rather you have to learn to open it, that's the point of the thread.

taram

Okaies, will give it a go... Am atheist.

I think that Christians believe because:
1. Knowing a deity is there for them in hard times is comforting
2. Having faith that Jesus died to give eternal life, so they and their loved ones can go to heaven and have eternal life, which helps ease fears around death
3. They can see the wonder and beauty in the world around them and believe that God placed it there for their life and enjoyment which would make them happy
4. Having consolation that evil people will suffer in the afterlife for their sins

sink

Jakkass wrote: »

You really don't have to close your mind, but rather you have to learn to open it, that's the point of the thread.

I completely disagree. One cannot open ones mind to something without first closing ones mind to everything contradictory. For example.

1) Life without God is pointless and futile
To open my mind to this I have to close my mind to the knowledge that a life without god can be very fulfilling if you are self motivated.

2) There must be an afterlife
Why? This statement implicitly presupposes a soul (i.e. a non corporeal conciousness) that lives on after we die. Yet neuroscience has shown conciousness to be completely dependent upon the physical brain. I have to close my mind to this knowledge and the likely scenario that without our brain their is no concious and therefore no afterlife. I also have to close my mind to the research being carried out in the field of psychology which points the concepts of a soul and afterlife being by-products of homo-sapiens evolved social ability to externalise and extrapolate the thoughts and motivations of other consciousnesses than their own.

3) The world cannot have simply popped out of nothing or out of undirected/unintended/undersigned processes
While I don't disagree that "The world cannot have simply popped out of nothing", why does that infer the existence of god? It is quiet possible that the universe is being shaped by undirected/unintended/undersigned processes. I would have to close my mind to emergent complexity and the many candidate theories of everything (e.g. string theory).

4) My immortal soul depends on my faith
Presuppose the existence of a soul, closes mind to the non-existence of a soul.

5) My faith gives me consolation in difficult times
I can't gain consolation from something I seriously doubt. Instead I rely upon friends and family to help me through difficult times.

6) My faith helps me give meaning to my life and world
My meaning comes from a sense of wonder at nature and the cosmos and my place within it. I think of myself as cog in a vast system and I will always permeate however insignificantly even after I'm gone. I would rather be a tiny part of something massive and wondrous than a large part of something that seems petty and simple.

7) The positive benefits of the above feed back into my faith like a virtuous circle, reinforcing my faith as evidence for it
Not applicable.

8) My religion is ancient/well-subscribed, it would not have endured if it were not true.
My experience with my fellow man tells me that is simply not the case.

9) Somewhat similar to 8), I defer and respect the wisdom of my forebearers who subscribe to this religion, thus I do too, and I'm not in a position to question it.
They had far less access to education and information than myself, why would I defer to someone with less of an ability to seek the truth than myself?

philologos

sink: That's fine, what I had intended to do was to get the theists to outline the reasons that they think atheists would use to justify their atheism, and then the atheists find the reasons that they think Christians would use to justify their faith. Then with these out in the open, the theists can refine the understanding the atheist has given of them, and the atheist can refine the understanding that the theist has given them so that we can learn more about the other. That was the idea anyway.

Are you really that untrusting of my intentions? I know this is hard, this is why I have asked you to do it.

Tim Robbins

Jakkass wrote: »

Again guys. The point of this was to give the reasons that you think that theists actually think are reasons for their faith. It was aimed to be as a get into the others shoes exercise.

LookingFor has done this well so far, and I actually thought about how atheists would justify their atheism in my OP. It isn't really effective if we look at how atheists explain why theists are the way they are.

Feel free to assess the reasons I have given for how atheists justify atheism and to add others as suggestions when looking at my list.

Good thread. Let me try and answer...

It depends on the believer.
I suspect people like you, PDN, Jimi, Fanny, Noel belief for the following reasons:
1. You believe there are philosophical arguments for their being a creator.
2. You believe that there is historical evidence to support your views. The Gospels are accurare historical texts.
3. You have seen it (what you perceive as Christianity) in action change other people's lifes in an amazing and positive way.
4. It has made your own life far far better.

I believe your lifes are now so dependent on it that it's impossible for you to look at it critically, logically and objectively.

Dades

Sink, any chance we could make it even to page two without flinging out contrary arguments? If you can't put yourself in the position required to answer in the spirit of the post, at least wait until some other more imaginative people have.

Dades

Me: Atheist

Why, if I believed, do I believe?

- I've never known anything but belief
- If God didn't make us, who did?
- It says so in the bible.
- How could a few billion believers be wrong?

Hope I've managed to tow the line here.

JimiTime

Me: Christian (well trying anyway)

What do I think atheists' reasons are for being atheist?

1) There have been so many religions and gods, its obvious its just a human invention.
2) I only believe in things which can be modelled using the scientific method.
3) No loving god would allow a child to die.
4) Science has chased religion into so many corners, changing the religion. zeus lived on Mt. Olympus, then when man reached its summit and found no Zeus, god moved up into the clouds. When man reached the clouds he moved into space etc etc.
5) You must suspend logic and reason in order to believe in God.
6) I see no evidence of God.
7) Things that religious people aportion to God, happen to non-religious people too.
8) Religion breeds violence, bigotry, homophobia etc.
9) Specifically dealing with christianity, the rapes and genocides ordered by God in the OT.
10) Look at the abusive history of the Roman Catholic Church.
11) How can we honestly believe in stories written by desert nomads 4000 years ago.
12) All the stories are wacky. How don't we see miricles now?

I'm sure there are lots more.

Overblood

Me: Atheist, bordering (and moving towards) Anti-theist.

So I'm going to pretend that I'm a Christian and somebody has asked me: "Why are you a Christian?"

In no set order:

1. Because I don't like the idea of death being the end of everything I am. I want to live on after I die, and bask in paradise. Forever.

2. It's nice to know that somebody up there is watching over me, showing interest in me, protecting me.

3. Skilfully cherry-picked, the bible has many passages of good moral guidance that I can live by.

4. Church fosters good community spirit.

5. My parents are Christian, I was born into a Christian family, I shall follow in their footsteps.

6. I feel sorry for Jesus, he died for me.:(

7. If there is no God, then what is there? I can't live with this uncertainty.

8. Knowing that I have a god-given purpose makes me feel happy.

liah

I honestly don't think I can do this without coming off as quite flippant but I'll try..

I'm an Atheist, so I'll try to do the whole Christian thing..

1.) Belief in a higher being helps me better deal with my inner insecurities. If I believe that someone is watching out for me and has a greater plan, I actually have a chance of making something of myself, because without that I would be too frightened and insecure to continue.

2.) I was raised this way. I was spoonfed this since I was a tiny child, it is ingrained into my system to be unquestioning in my faith.

3.) It seems unlikely to me that there will ever be a scientific explanation for the creation of the universe as we currently know it (even though science taught us about the universe as we currently know it.. whoops, flippance coming out, my bad).

4.) I am scared that if I mess up this life, if I lost my belief system I would have no second chance. I feel that restraining myself from some basic pleasures in life and keeping myself pure in the eyes of the Lord will give me a second chance in the afterlife and I will not need to fear death. The idea of a second chance keeps me going through hardships.

I honestly can't think of any more. I seriously have issues understanding why people need faith. I appreciate the exercise but I just don't see it as level ground at all, as I can't shut my brain off far enough to justify the belief in what is, essentially, a fairytale.

Goduznt Xzst

Me: Eudaimonic/Aesthetic Consequentialist

What do I think are Christians' reasons for being Christian?

1. My family and friends share the same Religion as me. Celebrating it with them makes me feel part of the whole
2. The Bible IS de facto a Holy book inspired by God, and as it says God exists and I will achieve eternal existence if I follow Jesus' example I must obey it.
3. So many people have a religion or belief of some kind, this is evidence that we want to know about God. God has instilled this desire in us because he exists.
4. Humans appreciate the beauty of the world, we have been given such a variety of food and sounds and feelings that this world must of been made by God for humans to enjoy.
5. I have lost people close to me or fear my coming death. Death is not natural, I know this, therefore the promise that God has made of immortality must be real.

toiletduck

Me: Atheist

Why do Christian's believe in what they do?

1 - Faith
2 - The sense of community at the church. The goodwill and good works done by same.
3 - Death can't be the end, what happens to our souls?
4 - A real sense of being in the presence of the Lord on pilgrimages, in Novenas etc. Perhaps a perceived spiritual experience?
5 - I'm a better person since embracing God

Kipperhell

Humanist

What people say when they believe in Christianity
1) It makes sense that we were created by God as how else would we be here
2) The Bible tells us there is a God
3) People who have studied all the text understand how the text fits together and don't contradict
4) I feel good when I am praying/participating in religion this is a miracle of god
5) There is morality which wouldn't exist without God
6) God has helped me through tough times
7) There are miracles and beauty around me like sunsets that prove God
8) The message of a Christian God wouldn't have spread unless it was true
9) Why would the churches have been set-up unless there was actually a miracle of resurrection
10) People died preaching the word so it has to be true because why else would they do this?
11) Miracles happen I have seen them
12) I have faith and science doesn't answer everything
13) Nobody knows and I am sticking with what I was raised with as a good moral code
14) I could not live knowing this is all there is


I have heard all of the above from Christians in no particular order

There is a really interesting point to note about thread in that the OP states in a disparaging way about the belief in atheism by use of strike through and the word "seems". As the thread got responses there is then an insistence on stepping into the other person's shoes. It would make sense to change the tone and remove the "seems" and strike through if the actual goal is to remain neutral and debate the subject IMHO.
You never know somebody could be waiting to use these to quote against later statements:eek:

philologos

Kipperhell wrote: »

There is a really interesting point to note about thread in that the OP states in a disparaging way about the belief in atheism by use of strike through and the word "seems". As the thread got responses there is then an insistence on stepping into the other person's shoes. It would make sense to change the tone and remove the "seems" and strike through if the actual goal is to remain neutral and debate the subject IMHO.
You never know somebody could be waiting to use these to quote against later statements:eek:

I didn't intend to be disparaging. I used the word seems precisely for the reason to remain objective, it implies a lack of definitive knowledge. Sam Vimes and others have criticised me for saying that atheism is the belief in God's nonexistence, but rather that atheism is more agnostic. I have heard all these reasons been given to me by atheists, and I thought my 23 reasons were quite conclusive of the atheist position.

The intention of the thread was to clarify how you think the other justifies their position, and then for the others to clarify your misconceptions. I'm waiting for more theists to come and speak about atheism before I start clarifying some of the misunderstandings of how Christians generally put forward their faith, in a calm manner of course, and I invite atheists to do the same with my reasons.

The strike through was used, because I originally used what was in the strike through as the question, but I altered the question as it went along. I thought it was fair.

Kipperhell

Jakkass wrote: »

I have heard all these reasons been given to me by atheists, and I thought my 23 reasons were quite conclusive of the atheist position.

Not really because I would see it that most atheists would replace every "seems" with "is" or "does". I can't speak for all atheists but it isn't
e.g. "13) Faith seems to breed arrogance" should be "13) Faith does breed ignorance". The first is statement suggesting the person is wrong in there knowledge and the second is what they would probably said based on their knowledge/understanding.
As you have stated you are meant to be speaking from the other person's point of view. What you are doing here is reducing the statements based on how you feel about the statements and you also warned other people from doing the same. Do you understand they aren't objective when you do this? The statements I have made are as if a Christian said them and I think you should do the same as you appear to have a misconception that there is doubt about many more statements than your average atheist would have.

If anybody else thinks I am exaggerating the importance of the use of the words please wade in as I could see this being considered a personal gripe.

JimiTime

Kipperhell wrote: »

Not really because I would see it that most atheists would replace every "seems" with "is" or "does". I can't speak for all atheists but it isn't
e.g. "13) Faith seems to breed arrogance" should be "13) Faith does breed ignorance". The first is statement suggesting the person is wrong in there knowledge and the second is what they would probably said based on their knowledge/understanding.
As you have stated you are meant to be speaking from the other person's point of view. What you are doing here is reducing the statements based on how you feel about the statements and you also warned other people from doing the same. Do you understand they aren't objective when you do this? The statements I have made are as if a Christian said them and I think you should do the same as you appear to have a misconception that there is doubt about many more statements than your average atheist would have.

If anybody else thinks I am exaggerating the importance of the use of the words please wade in as I could see this being considered a personal gripe.

I think you are misunderstanding Jackasses motivation in using the word 'seems'. He's trying to apply the word to both the thiest and athiest. Rather than make a conclusive statement, he puts in the word seems so as not to make a definitive statement for either side. He's not denying that you believe that faith breeds arrogance, but if he made such a definitive statement, he isolates the other side. You know what I mean?

Kipperhell

JimiTime wrote: »

I think you are misunderstanding Jackasses motivation in using the word 'seems'. He's trying to apply the word to both the thiest and athiest. Rather than make a conclusive statement, he puts in the word seems so as not to make a definitive statement for either side. He's not denying that you believe that faith breeds arrogance, but if he made such a definitive statement, he isolates the other side. You know what I mean?

The point is he has stated is as what an atheist says so it doesn't actual have to include any reference to how a theist would view it and actively shouldn't . Am I missing the meaning of speaking from another point of view?

MrPudding

JimiTime wrote: »

Me: Christian (well trying anyway)

Yes, very trying sometimes...

I am an Atheist / Humanist trying to not become an anti-theist, but finding the going tough.

Putting myself in the believer’s shoes, why would I believe…

• I simply cannot conceive how something as wondrous and complex as the world we know could come about by chance.
• There have been so many believers before me that they can’t all be wrong.
• So many people have terrible lives, there most be something better for them afterwards.
• I was born into it. It is comfortable now, like a pair of old slippers.
• I get comfort from knowing god is watching over me.
• I know that any suffering I have will be made good in the next life. All the loss I endure here will be made better.
• I believe that the bible is the word of god.
• Were it not for god my life would suck. (cue Kelly Clarkson song)
• Were it not for god we would not know right form wrong and the world would descend into chaos.

I am sure there is more, but that will do to start.

MrP

JimiTime

Kipperhell wrote: »

The point is he has stated is as what an atheist says so it doesn't actual have to include any reference to how a theist would view it and actively shouldn't . Am I missing the meaning of speaking from another point of view?

My bad, I get what you mean. May be splitting heirs a bit though. I'd say its still fair to put 'seems' in, as it speaks from the POV of the atheist who comes from a standpoint of 'Well all I can say is that the evidence would suggest such and such'. Anyway, I'll leave it up to yourself and Jackass.

midlandsmissus

dvpower wrote: »

Your belief system: Atheist

Why do you think Christians are Christians?:

1) They were born into it.
2) They haven't really questioned their beliefs.
3) Billions of other religious people on the planet can't possibly be wrong.
4) Competing (non theist) beliefs don't adequately explain how we became to be / the meaning of life.
5) They are reluctant to question their beliefs for fear of upsetting God.
6) Eternal life is a sweet, sweet deal.
7) Life without some higher power / reason seems meaningless.
8) They have faith.

Just in reply to this post and similiar: I am a christian and wasn't born into being christian.

I was born into an atheist family:

I think there could be a theory that alot of people become what they are in order to rebel against their parents.

That could be a factor in what I did. After all how many people on here are born athiests.

Think about it, do you think this could be a factor?

If you think nobody questions what they are born into you are very wrong.

midlandsmissus

I am christian I think people are athiest due to: ( I am going to be brutally honest here)


- Lack of proof/evidence
- Rebelling against family authority/practices
- Young exisitentialist angst at everything (majority of atheists are young)
- Only see the catholic view of doing things (in Ireland) reject this, and then consider all religion to be sh*te (there is so much more to God that catholicism!)
- Like to consider themselves intelligently superior to the other 'sheep' in the world.
- Like to think that only they really think about and question things and everyone else is stupid
- Like to be cool and in with the crowd (atheism is the 'cool' thing these days)

marco_polo

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I am christian I think people are athiest due to: ( I am going to be brutally honest here)


- Lack of proof/evidence
- Rebelling against family authority/practices
- Young exisitentialist angst at everything (majority of atheists are young)
- Only see the catholic view of doing things (in Ireland) reject this, and then consider all religion to be sh*te (there is so much more to God that catholicism!)
- Like to consider themselves intelligently superior to the other 'sheep' in the world.
- Like to think that only they really think about and question things and everyone else is stupid
- Like to be cool and in with the crowd (atheism is the 'cool' thing these days)

I think this post marks the beginning of the end of this thread.

CerebralCortex

marco_polo wrote: »

I think this post marks the beginning of the end of this thread.

Ya I agree. Is that really seeing it from our pov midlandmissus?

CerebralCortex

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Just in reply to this post and similiar: I am a christian and wasn't born into being christian.

I was born into an atheist family:

I think there could be a theory that alot of people become what they are in order to rebel against their parents.

That could be a factor in what I did. After all how many people on here are born athiests.

Think about it, do you think this could be a factor?

If you think nobody questions what they are born into you are very wrong.

Everyone I would have thought.

midlandsmissus

Soz yeah I'm not being very neutral - well I've listed the negative reasons, here are positve reasons why I think people become atheists:

- It makes more sense
- There is tons of research to back them up
- The authoritarian views of their local church are truly terrible
- They have carefully analysed their position and put alot of thought into it
- They are surrounded by an older generation who were born into their faith and blindly follow it
- They basically dont have anything to prove otherwise so why should they


Phew its definitely easier to list the negative! I've learned a lesson in walking in the other persons shoes I think

Kipperhell

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Ya I agree. Is that really seeing it from our pov midlandmissus?

I was trying to point out how the OP has the same connotations but just in a milder form.

midlandsmissus

Kipperhell wrote: »

I was trying to point out how the OP has the same connotations but just in a milder form.

Actually yeah if you look at the first post- its em quite negative isn't it?

I challenge the op to list positive reasons why people might believe in god.

Thats the harder thing to do.

I did it for atheism.

Overblood

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I think there could be a theory that alot of people become what they are in order to rebel against their parents.

That could be a factor in what I did. After all how many people on here are born athiests.

Think about it, do you think this could be a factor?

So I became an atheist to rebel against my atheist parents?

And by the way, everybody is born an atheist.

Kipperhell

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Actually yeah if you look at the first post- its em quite negative isn't it?

I challenge the op to list positive reasons why people might believe in god.

Thats the harder thing to do.

I did it for atheism.

It isn't about positive or negative it is about what are the statements of belief/reason the other side has. The only negative I see is that there is the suggestion that it only "seems" a particular way when people actually believe it is that way negating the actual belief in the statement. The OP is truly Christian and I think you came in with the wrong understanding given you are reading negative/positive views on belief rather than what the statements are.

JimiTime

It'd be great if one of the mods could delete all the posts that miss the point of this thread?? Also if anyone who calls conspiracy just either trusts the OP or doesn't post? I think its an interesting thread, and it would be a pain to see it get ruined in the same old ways. Even let the bickering begin on Jackasses say so maybe? When he says, 'Ok we have enough responses from both camps, you may now begin to point out flaws or whatever'. What say yee?

5uspect

Nice idea for a thread.

Me: Anti-theistic Atheist

Why do devout Christians believe what they believe?

Everything had to come from somewhere.
A world without absolute Truth/Love is not worth living in.
I really feel or know that it's true.
There is "evidence" to back me up.
It is rational and open minded.
God is what separates us from the animals.
My faith helped me through a rough patch in my life.
The beauty/design of the world convinces me everyday.
The Bible confirmed what I feel.


Why do average Christians believe what they believe?

I don't really think about it.
I was raised as a Christian, it is my culture/heritage.
The vast majority of the people in the world can't all be wrong!
I want to go to heaven and be with my family.
When I pray for something, Jesus helps me.
Why wouldn't you believe? Who does it hurt?


I'd say its somewhat fair to make this distinction.

Zombrex

This thread reminds me of the Simpsons

Marge: Where are we going? Where are we going?
Homer: OK, OK, don't panic. To find Flanders, I just have to think like Flanders!
Homer [thinking]: I'm a big four-eyed lame-o, and I wear the same stupid sweater every day and --
Homer [aloud]: The Springfield River!

People don't seem to be able to think like others without insulting them. I remember trying this a while back and the thread descended into people just bitching (I can't think like a theist I'm not that illogical and biased)

Fair play Jakkass, at least you tried.

Naz_st

Nice thread idea - it's always a good idea to try and put yourself in the other person's shoes when it comes to fundamental differences of opinion and it often reveals insights that couldn't have been revealed simply by someone else telling you their opinion (especially if the someone else is the person you are in disagreement with!).

Now, as to the exercise itself, I'll give it my best shot:

Current Position: Anti-religious Atheist

Were I a Theist, what would I say...

1) I am important. I have a purpose. My life is not meaningless. The world around me as seen through my eyes and from my consciousness is unique. No one else sees it. No one else understands it. No one else knows what it looks like. My position in the world, in the universe itself, is special. This, to me, implies a divine artificer with a plan for His creation.

2) Personal experience. Every so often, even if only for a brief moment, I conceive of something more than my senses are physically showing me. I perceive of something just on the edge of consciousness that makes my skin prickle and the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I am at once unconnected from the "material" world and uniquely aware of it's entirety. It brings an undeniable calm and certain knowledge that the universe is unfolding just as it should. This knowledge and this moment implies that there is a higher purpose to the direction of the universe and my place in it.

3) At some point during the very mundane, biological development of the human brain, something arises that is more than the sum total of the individual cells and neurons and synapses deliver, something found in only one place (that we know of) in the vast cosmic arena: consciousness. Where does this come from and how does it arise? If it arises subsequent to the basic biological building blocks, doesn't this imply that we are more than a mere bag of cells and chemicals? Is this not the soul?

Finally I will add on a lighter note: Karma. Sometimes, some things happen that really make so much more sense if there is a "human-like" over-arching intelligence watching what is going on in the material world. To give you an example: I was playing golf one day a good few years ago with my brother (who doesn't play much). He needed to win the last hole to draw and ended up about 40ft away on a variously sloping green and needing to make the putt to win. Bearing in mind that he has trouble from anywhere outside about 2ft, I said (with unconcealed glee) something offhand like "there is no way on Earth you can make that!". You can guess what happened next. As if the ball was on some remote control, it meandered up and down the various slopes and went straight in. That sort of thing just makes so much more sense if there is somebody watching with both the power to interfere and a sense of humour!

philologos

Thank you all. The next stage in this thread is as follows. Please keep to this pattern or it will probably descend into another useless argument.

Now, that the atheists have clarified how they think a theist would justify their beliefs, and now that the theists have clarified how they think an atheist would justify their beliefs. Any newcomers are free to give reasons still if they haven't already. I want the atheists to assess the reasons that the theists have given, and I would like the theists to assess the reasons the atheists have given.

Please try only to reply to the first round posts at this stage (i.e the reasons). The third round of this thread (when I announce, if everyone doesn't mind that) will commence after everyone has adequately assessed the reasons the other have given them. Then I will allow a general discussion based on the more refined reasons to begin.

So feel free to begin suggesting the inadequacies of the reasons given in the first stage of the thread. Then having done this, a reasonable back and forth can begin.

kiffer

Strong Agnostic (to keep it short...)


and now (in no particular order) a bit of Role Playing based on the sorts of things people say:
In an alternate universe...

○ I was down/depressed/lost, I couldn't seem to get my life together, I prayed/asked for help and once I felt that I wasn't in it all alone I managed to pull my life together... I don't know where I got the strength from... It must have been God.
• The world seems pretty harsh, humans seem like they should be basically good but so many of them seem like jerks... in fact... they seem like scum... when it comes down to it that whole humans are fallen sinners thing makes a lot of sense... children these days seem so much worse than when I was a child, that's a clear sign of moral decay...
○ The teachings of Christ say things like love your enemy which fits my idea that people should be nice... as I read more it got more complicated but all seemed pretty good, turn the other cheek, get to go to heaven, saved from hell... not sure I like the idea of hell but at this point I've got to accept that this chap knows what he's talking about... after all he helped me out when I needed him...
• I believe some things are absolutely morally wrong (it doesn't matter what specifically), I think absolute morality does not make sense without a higher power to dictate it...
○ The Church provides me a vital sense of community, I've made some fast friends here, they're nice people... they put me straight on somethings I misunderstood about God... a lot of great minds have believed in this and they've slotted it all together like a puzzle...
• If I'm wrong about this I could go back to how I was before... if it's not true then I might lose that strength and end up worse than before.
○ If there's no God, then where did it all come from? I mean ultimately there needs to be a prime mover right? God exists, the Bible says he's the Creator... so that fits... doesn't it?

Kipperhell

Well if we are now saying we established the statements of belief it boils down quite simply to me using the points I listed myself earlier here

Kipperhell wrote: »

What people say when they believe in Christianity

1) Existence is not proof of creator to ask "why?" is to ignore "why not?"
2)The bible contains stories some parable and some obviously dubious content it cannot be said to be accurate and should be discounted as factual. Doesn't matter if 50000 or 500 people saw Jesus be resurrected the bible as a proof of such events is circular argument as you only know about the resurrection from it
3) There are and always have been people that will lie and make false declarations about the existence of gods. This could be at the conception of the bible or afterwards either way the arguments have changed with time and people have been murdered in the past for contradicting statements form Christian churches which have later changed.
4) There is no difference to people pray to other gods and any other faith for the comfort they get from praying or similar religious ceremonies. If you only have one faith you need to explain how the other faiths manage the same feelings to me this shows this is just part of human nature and can be achieved in a number of ways.
5) Morality exists in the absence of religion and in particular the Christian religion. When a French scientist discovered a child raised by dogs he punished the child unfairly to test if the child understood right or wrong (morality) and he did.
6) Strength given by a god to over come adversity is not actually an event but rather a support of self esteem and will. Oz never gave anything to the Tin Man that he didn't already have
7) There is no evidence of a god and declaring unlikely events or beauty as proof ignore the existence of the disgusting parts of nature and also requires to assume all unlikely events are impossible. A pile of poo is just as important as the sun in this world yet people don't see that as a miracle
8) The spread of so many various religions disproves that Christianity spread makes it correct it actually proves more that it is just view point that has spread like others have spread.
9)Power and control have set up modern day cults so it seems to be a pretty valid reason for any church to have ever been set up. Don't see any reason to think Christianity was any different
10)People die for what they think is right not always for what is true but we are also rely on stories of what happened which could easily be untrue or later embellished as often happens in modern life. Don't see why many years later we assume it is accurate now in a largely illiterate world.
11) If you are seeing miracles I think you should examine how you are define it and consider see point 7 about unlikely events not making them impossible.
12) Just because science doesn't explain everything (x,y,z) does not mean a one answer solution God explains all it just means we still can find out.
13) Sticking with religion due to peer pressure or lack of looking makes perfect sense to me but I couldn't do it myself
14) If you have problems existing in the current world without god then I can see why you would insist on its validity. In generally people should ask themselves this first as it doesn't really matter about facts as you should never find out otherwise as you will want to kill yourself.

That is just how I would see it and generally it all comes down to faith. The use of the word "truth" in recitation confuses people and is akin to anything a cult would do. Homer and the Leader giving us a pretty good example of how such things are done.

philologos

Kipperhell: the point of the thread is not to respond to your own post. But to respond to what theists are saying about you. I don't want this to end up being a meaningless antagonistic debate. I'm writing my points to the people who have discussed theism. It's about trying to actually learn from eachother instead of just attacking the opposite position.

Kipperhell

Jakkass wrote: »

Kipperhell: the point of the thread is not to respond to your own post. But to respond to what theists are saying about you. I don't want this to end up being a meaningless antagonistic debate. I'm writing my points to the people who have discussed theism. It's about trying to actually learn from eachother instead of just attacking the opposite position.

Oh sorry about that then my point early on still stands about what you said using the word "seem" but you wanted to disregard that so not sure how meaningful it will be if one side ignores the other in this manner.

Point 20 from your statement seems to be a complete falsehood I have never heard any atheist say and I even put up a thread about how people confuse religious spiritual feelings.

philologos

Zamboni wrote: »

Belief system: N/A

Why do you think Christians are Christians.

1. The majority were introduced into it from birth. Old habits etc.
2. Scared of mortality (which is fair enough, it sucks).

1. Introduction doesn't secure belief. I don't think birth adequately explains converts and so on. Introduction personally only brought me to a very limited understanding of Christianity. Personal study of the Biblical text is what allows one to have a complete understanding of the Christian hypothesis. I find it a relatively weak reason.

2. This is a reason I don't particularly understand. I follow God because I love what God has been revealed to me as. If I did not have an afterlife, I still would believe in God and Jesus Christ. We have a life to live here right now. I was reading the Scriptures last night (Philippians ch 1) and Paul registers with me entirely on this point:

Philippians 1:21-26 wrote:

For me living is Christ, and dying is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labour for me; and i do not know which I prefer. I am hard pressed between the two: my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is better; but to remain in the flesh is more necessary for you. Since I am convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with all of you for your progress and joy in your faith, so that I may share abundantly in your boasting in Christ Jesus when I come to you again.

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Why do you believe religious people are religious:

1. They're raised to believe it is true.
2. Human biology.
3. They don't think about it enough/don't know enough about how the universe works.
4. Where there is a question as yet unanswerable, they seek to create one.

Where 3 is not applicable, 2 explains why this is so.

1. See my first point to Zamboni.

2. Why aren't we all believers if we are biologically predetermined to be so?

3. I agree that some don't. I have personally given my beliefs a lot of consideration, and I am still thinking about how best to apply them etc. It's generally something I leave a good bit of time for to read the Scriptures, and to talk and share with other believers.

4. This implies the Gospel is manufactured, no Christian would ever advocate this. We'd generally attribute this to divine revelation. However, I did deal with the most likely objection you would have to that in my original post.

dvpower wrote: »

1) They were born into it.
2) They haven't really questioned their beliefs.
3) Billions of other religious people on the planet can't possibly be wrong.
4) Competing (non theist) beliefs don't adequately explain how we became to be / the meaning of life.
5) They are reluctant to question their beliefs for fear of upsetting God.
6) Eternal life is a sweet, sweet deal.
7) Life without some higher power / reason seems meaningless.
8) They have faith.

1. See my first point to Zamboni.

2. See my third point to ChocolateSauce.

3. I find this a foolish argument to propose. I may have done so in my history on Boards.ie, however numbers does not equal truth. This isn't a proper reason to suggest that Christianity is any more through than any other belief system that exists.

4. Agreed here, I would use this reason.

5. I amn't reluctant. As I've said in another thread here recently I have doubted my faith several times. I love God, and God knows the true feelings of my heart (yes MrPudding, the organ that pumps blood around my body ), and I think he would prefer that I be honest with him if I am having difficulty in my faith.

6. See point 2 to Zamboni.

7. I agree here, it does seem rather meaningless.

8. That I do. I may need to explain what faith means though. A friend of mine at CU in college explained it very well:

Faith is accepting the evidence, believing in it, and acting upon it.

This could cause major disagreement but wait until I open up round three for rebuttals.

LookingFor wrote: »

1) Life without God is pointless and futile
2) There must be an afterlife
3) The world cannot have simply popped out of nothing or out of undirected/unintended/undesigned processes
4) My immortal soul depends on my faith
5) My faith gives me consolation in difficult times
6) My faith helps me give meaning to my life and world
7) The positive benefits of the above feed back into my faith like a virtuous circle, reinforcing my faith as evidence for it
8) My religion is ancient/well-subscribed, it would not have endured if it were not true.
9) Somewhat similar to 8), I defer and respect the wisdom of my forebearers who subscribe to this religion, thus I do too, and I'm not in a position to question it.

1. I would hold this reason.

2 & 4: See point 2 to Zamboni.

3: I agree, this is what caused a lot of anger in another thread. Good that you have been listening to me

5: It does, this is quite well substantiated in King Davids Psalms.

6: Yes, I would also hold this reason.

7: I'm not sure if I would give as much credence to the view of circular logic. I would regard this as spiritual experience perhaps, as in reason 4 on my signature.

8. See point 3 to dvpower.

9. Antiquity, forebearers etc are not equivalent to validity or truth.

sink wrote: »

Belief system: Humanist

How do you think that theists justify being theists?

Lower standards for determining facts coupled with wishful thinking.

I don't think I have a lower standard for facts to anybody else. I have no reason to. I often employ skepticism in here, as I did in the previous thread that got heated up concerning the posts that people had given me. It didn't end up well.

taram wrote: »

1. Knowing a deity is there for them in hard times is comforting
2. Having faith that Jesus died to give eternal life, so they and their loved ones can go to heaven and have eternal life, which helps ease fears around death
3. They can see the wonder and beauty in the world around them and believe that God placed it there for their life and enjoyment which would make them happy
4. Having consolation that evil people will suffer in the afterlife for their sins

2. See point 2 to Zamboni.

3. The sophistication of the earth is a good reason to believe:

Romans 1:19-22 wrote:

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things He has made. So they are without excuse, for though they knew God; they did not honour Him as God or give thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools.

4. Yes, I do believe that those who transgress God's commandments will be punished, however I would far prefer for them to receive Jesus Christ and to be saved. I although a sinner have been saved through Jesus' grace. I would expect the same to be for the one who has wronged me. I'm no better than the evilest of evil, we are both fallen in God's sight.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

It depends on the believer.
I suspect people like you, PDN, Jimi, Fanny, Noel belief for the following reasons:
1. You believe there are philosophical arguments for their being a creator.
2. You believe that there is historical evidence to support your views. The Gospels are accurare historical texts.
3. You have seen it (what you perceive as Christianity) in action change other people's lifes in an amazing and positive way.
4. It has made your own life far far better.

1. Yes I do.

2. Yes I do.

3. I have experienced it and I have seen God work through others through my interactions with them. I've had the pleasure of having strong links with other Christians through university and so on.

4. Yes it has since I repented and allowed myself to become Christ's own.

Dades wrote: »

Me: Atheist

Why, if I believed, do I believe?

- I've never known anything but belief
- If God didn't make us, who did?
- It says so in the bible.
- How could a few billion believers be wrong?

1. I have known disbelief, I've known life where I was far off from God.

2. I would ask this question too, but it isn't really a reason, it doesn't give us any more bearing towards what did cause our existence.

3. The Bible is the hypothesis, it isn't the reason for believing in it.

4. See point 2 to Zamboni.

Overblood wrote: »

1. Because I don't like the idea of death being the end of everything I am. I want to live on after I die, and bask in paradise. Forever.

2. It's nice to know that somebody up there is watching over me, showing interest in me, protecting me.

3. Skilfully cherry-picked, the bible has many passages of good moral guidance that I can live by.

4. Church fosters good community spirit.

5. My parents are Christian, I was born into a Christian family, I shall follow in their footsteps.

6. I feel sorry for Jesus, he died for me.

7. If there is no God, then what is there? I can't live with this uncertainty.

8. Knowing that I have a god-given purpose makes me feel happy.

1. See point 2 to Zamboni.

2. Yes, it is.

3. Are they skillfully cherry picked? I believe God is just and righteous even when He is punishing the Israelites for their sins and casting them out of the Holy Land. Sometimes punishment has to be sharp to bear forth repentance. Or a godly grief as Paul calls it.

4. Really depends on the church. If I had cases of terrible church experiences to cite this reason wouldn't go very far.

5. See point 1 to Zamboni. There is a point where one has to decide for themselves. You can't rely on Mum and Dad forever, you have to repackage your beliefs for yourself, and you have to honestly think about what you believe.

6. Jesus was the Son of God, divine in the flesh. I don't feel sorry for Him, rather I feel a great joy that I have been saved by His flesh, and that I have a new chance to put myself right according to His teachings. I'm eternally grateful. It's like what Jesus prophesied in the Gospel of John:

John 16:20 wrote:

Very truly, I tell you, you will weep and mourn, but the world will rejoice; you will have pain, but your pain will turn into joy

.

You'll find in early Christian art, the cross was not depicted very often if at all. It gained precedence as time went on, as the feeling of pain was lifted and the cross became something of pride, not of fear or sadness.

7. I honestly don't think this is a real reason. Just because I can't deal with agnosticism doesn't mean that Christianity is true.

8. It makes me feel fulfilled, and it gives me a drive to do what I do. Sometimes I slip and fail. That makes me feel annoyed sometimes. Christianity isn't all about happiness, and enjoyment. We will experience testing and trials.

liah wrote: »

1.) Belief in a higher being helps me better deal with my inner insecurities. If I believe that someone is watching out for me and has a greater plan, I actually have a chance of making something of myself, because without that I would be too frightened and insecure to continue.

2.) I was raised this way. I was spoonfed this since I was a tiny child, it is ingrained into my system to be unquestioning in my faith.

3.) It seems unlikely to me that there will ever be a scientific explanation for the creation of the universe as we currently know it (even though science taught us about the universe as we currently know it.. whoops, flippance coming out, my bad).

4.) I am scared that if I mess up this life, if I lost my belief system I would have no second chance. I feel that restraining myself from some basic pleasures in life and keeping myself pure in the eyes of the Lord will give me a second chance in the afterlife and I will not need to fear death. The idea of a second chance keeps me going through hardships.

1. No human can truly be truly fulfilled without God. We are all fallen beings who have rejected God's grace and have missed His plan for us.

2. See point 1 to Zamboni, and point 5 to Overblood. I have also dealt with questioning and doubt, I disagree with you outright.

3. Unlikelihood doesn't really matter surely? If God is real if a scientific explanation did emerge it would be confirming His glory? However I would agree with this point by and large. I don't think we will solve all the answers concerning cosmology. I'd like to be proven wrong though.

4. See point 2 to Zamboni

Just to finish, being a theist is not shutting off your brain. You have many many great academics and scholars who are Christians. It's a bit condascending to engage in that isn't it?

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

1. My family and friends share the same Religion as me. Celebrating it with them makes me feel part of the whole
2. The Bible IS de facto a Holy book inspired by God, and as it says God exists and I will achieve eternal existence if I follow Jesus' example I must obey it.
3. So many people have a religion or belief of some kind, this is evidence that we want to know about God. God has instilled this desire in us because he exists.
4. Humans appreciate the beauty of the world, we have been given such a variety of food and sounds and feelings that this world must of been made by God for humans to enjoy.
5. I have lost people close to me or fear my coming death. Death is not natural, I know this, therefore the promise that God has made of immortality must be real.

1. See point 2 to Zamboni, point 5 to Overblood.

2. See point 3 to Dades.

3. See point 8 to LookingFor.

4. See point 2 to taram.

5. See point 2 to Zamboni.

toiletduck wrote: »

1 - Faith
2 - The sense of community at the church. The goodwill and good works done by same.
3 - Death can't be the end, what happens to our souls?
4 - A real sense of being in the presence of the Lord on pilgrimages, in Novenas etc. Perhaps a perceived spiritual experience?
5 - I'm a better person since embracing God

1. See point 8 to dvpower.

2. See point 4 to Overblood.

3. See point 2 to Zamboni.

4. See point 7 to LookingFor.

5. See point 4 to TimRobbins.

Kipperhell wrote: »

What people say when they believe in Christianity
1) It makes sense that we were created by God as how else would we be here
2) The Bible tells us there is a God
3) People who have studied all the text understand how the text fits together and don't contradict
4) I feel good when I am praying/participating in religion this is a miracle of god
5) There is morality which wouldn't exist without God
6) God has helped me through tough times
7) There are miracles and beauty around me like sunsets that prove God
8) The message of a Christian God wouldn't have spread unless it was true
9) Why would the churches have been set-up unless there was actually a miracle of resurrection
10) People died preaching the word so it has to be true because why else would they do this?
11) Miracles happen I have seen them
12) I have faith and science doesn't answer everything
13) Nobody knows and I am sticking with what I was raised with as a good moral code
14) I could not live knowing this is all there is

1. I'd hold this position.

2. See point 3 to Dades

3. Indeed, I hold this reason.

4. See point 7 to LookingFor.

5. I agree, see C.S Lewis' Mere Christianity on this.

6. See point 5 to LookingFor.

7. See point 3 to taram.

8. Success doesn't equal truth. I'd hold that myself. I do think that this reason is valid, and is a pretty good platform for assessing the motives of the disciples post-Jesus on earth.

9. I use this argument myself.

10. Well, people can die for a lie. However, I doubt they would have continued for as long if they believed it to be a lie. This is quite convincing considering they knew Jesus in the flesh for 3 years. See the link in my sig on this.

11. I'm not sure if seeing them is much of a bearing. People could well think you are deluded. I personally never have born witness to a miracle to the likes that PDN has described. However, given the rarity of miracles, I don't see why I should have to see a miracle to believe if there are other good reasons for belief.

12. Science does answer a lot however. Religion deals with metaphysics, Science deals with the natural world and what we can see it doesn't account for abstract things like God.

13. Not all Christians were raised with the moral code of Christianity. Some come from the most oppressive regimes in the world. It is an argument, but it is not a universal argument. Then again on a personal level it could be fine. I'm probably a bit broadminded.

14. Just because you couldn't live doesn't have any bearing on the truth. See point 7 to Overblood.

MrPudding wrote: »

* I simply cannot conceive how something as wondrous and complex as the world we know could come about by chance.
* There have been so many believers before me that they can’t all be wrong.
* So many people have terrible lives, there most be something better for them afterwards.
* I was born into it. It is comfortable now, like a pair of old slippers.
* I get comfort from knowing god is watching over me.
* I know that any suffering I have will be made good in the next life. All the loss I endure here will be made better.
* I believe that the bible is the word of god.
* Were it not for god my life would suck. (cue Kelly Clarkson song)
* Were it not for god we would not know right form wrong and the world would descend into chaos.

1. I hold this position.

2. See both points 8 and 9 to LookingFor.

3. See point 2 to Zamboni.

4. See point 1 to Zamboni.

5. See point 2 to Overblood.

6. See point 2 to Zamboni. Although the account of the New Earth and the New Jerusalem does effectively say this in Revelations 21:

Revelations 21:4 wrote:

He will wipe every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; mourning and crying and pain will be no more, for the first things have passed away.

7. See point 4 to Tim Robbins.

5uspect wrote: »

Why do devout Christians believe what they believe?

Everything had to come from somewhere.
A world without absolute Truth/Love is not worth living in.
I really feel or know that it's true.
There is "evidence" to back me up.
It is rational and open minded.
God is what separates us from the animals.
My faith helped me through a rough patch in my life.
The beauty/design of the world convinces me everyday.
The Bible confirmed what I feel.


Why do average Christians believe what they believe?

I don't really think about it.
I was raised as a Christian, it is my culture/heritage.
The vast majority of the people in the world can't all be wrong!
I want to go to heaven and be with my family.
When I pray for something, Jesus helps me.
Why wouldn't you believe? Who does it hurt?

I think it's important to make a distinction too.

1. I hold this position.

2. It doesn't matter whether it is worth living in or not, it matters whether or not this is actually the world you are living in in reality. Truth is more important than fiction.

3. See point 7 to LookingFor.

4. Yes, I think there is.

5. Yes, I'd hold this as a reason.

6. Well yes, God is what separated us from the animals according to the Biblical text I suppose:

Genesis 1:26-27 wrote:

Then God said, 'Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of thesea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.'. So God creatd humankind in His image, in the image of God He created them; male and female He created them'

7. See point 4 to Tim Robbins.

8. See point 3 to taram.

9. Interesting point. I would hold that the spiritual experiences we would have are similar to those that are accounted for in the Bible.

10. See point 3 to ChocolateSauce.

11. See point 1 to Zamboni.

12. See point 2 to Zamboni.

13. This touches on other points, but Christianity isn't in the majority. Currently it is roughly 2 billion, or 33% of the worlds population.

14. See point 2 to Zamboni.

15. Ah Pascals Wager, just because you're willing to take a gamble does not mean that you have a full conviction that Jesus Christ is raised from the dead. It does not mean that it is something that you are willing to defend (Ephesians 6), or that you will not be tossed about in the wind if your conviction isn't deeply founded (Ephesians 4).

Naz_st wrote: »

1) I am important. I have a purpose. My life is not meaningless. The world around me as seen through my eyes and from my consciousness is unique. No one else sees it. No one else understands it. No one else knows what it looks like. My position in the world, in the universe itself, is special. This, to me, implies a divine artificer with a plan for His creation.

2) Personal experience. Every so often, even if only for a brief moment, I conceive of something more than my senses are physically showing me. I perceive of something just on the edge of consciousness that makes my skin prickle and the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I am at once unconnected from the "material" world and uniquely aware of it's entirety. It brings an undeniable calm and certain knowledge that the universe is unfolding just as it should. This knowledge and this moment implies that there is a higher purpose to the direction of the universe and my place in it.

3) At some point during the very mundane, biological development of the human brain, something arises that is more than the sum total of the individual cells and neurons and synapses deliver, something found in only one place (that we know of) in the vast cosmic arena: consciousness. Where does this come from and how does it arise? If it arises subsequent to the basic biological building blocks, doesn't this imply that we are more than a mere bag of cells and chemicals? Is this not the soul?

1. See point 8 to Overblood.

2. I agree here, it's one of the arguments I've used frequently. The only danger in using it is that other people cannot relate to it. Much like the ontological argument. It is within your personal realm and it cannot be assessed by the external world.

3. Very philosophical indeed well done . The Mind / Body dilemma is one that personally interests me a lot. The soul is a hard thing to define sometimes. I believe the soul contains the attributes that we use in our spiritual relationship with God.

kiffer wrote: »

○ I was down/depressed/lost, I couldn't seem to get my life together, I prayed/asked for help and once I felt that I wasn't in it all alone I managed to pull my life together... I don't know where I got the strength from... It must have been God.
• The world seems pretty harsh, humans seem like they should be basically good but so many of them seem like jerks... in fact... they seem like scum... when it comes down to it that whole humans are fallen sinners thing makes a lot of sense... children these days seem so much worse than when I was a child, that's a clear sign of moral decay...
○ The teachings of Christ say things like love your enemy which fits my idea that people should be nice... as I read more it got more complicated but all seemed pretty good, turn the other cheek, get to go to heaven, saved from hell... not sure I like the idea of hell but at this point I've got to accept that this chap knows what he's talking about... after all he helped me out when I needed him...
• I believe some things are absolutely morally wrong (it doesn't matter what specifically), I think absolute morality does not make sense without a higher power to dictate it...
○ The Church provides me a vital sense of community, I've made some fast friends here, they're nice people... they put me straight on somethings I misunderstood about God... a lot of great minds have believed in this and they've slotted it all together like a puzzle...
• If I'm wrong about this I could go back to how I was before... if it's not true then I might lose that strength and end up worse than before.
○ If there's no God, then where did it all come from? I mean ultimately there needs to be a prime mover right? God exists, the Bible says he's the Creator... so that fits... doesn't it?

1. Many people do use this argument. I personally consider my life to be far better as a Christian than it ever could have been as an agnostic, or as an atheist if I ever got that far down the road. See point 4 to Tim Robbins.

2. The world seeming harsh could be a very very good reason to discredit a loving God as in my original post. It isn't something that is incredibly useful to argue. We are all fallen sinners, but this doesn't mean that we are "scum", or that there isn't an intrinsic value in human life particularly when God is involved.

3. Well, doing things which are beneficial to others is beneficial to society. It isn't an argument that Christianity is true. As many of you have said here before, one could argue that one can be good from a secular perspective. It's a bit of a slippery argument. However if we see being good, as being good by God's standards and not the standards of mere man this makes sense. For the afterlife consult my point to Zamboni (point 2).

4. Well, relative morality really doesn't make much sense when you think about it logically.

5. See point 4 to Overblood.

6. This isn't a reason. If you are wrong about it, you are simply just that wrong. Perhaps I'm being a bit too pragmatic about it.

7. Major question I ask myself all the time. However the Bible is a hypothesis that is to be backed up.

Long post, I know, but you might see that the reasoning of a theist, is not all that different to the reasoning of an atheist when put down to it.

philologos

Kipperhell wrote: »

Oh sorry about that then my point early on still stands about what you said using the word "seem" but you wanted to disregard that so not sure how meaningful it will be if one side ignores the other in this manner.

Point 20 from your statement seems to be a complete falsehood I have never heard any atheist say and I even put up a thread about how people confuse religious spiritual feelings.

I'm not intent on ignoring you. Infact I'm willing to listen. However nitpicking over a single word seems a bit extreme. Let's work on actually dealing with the substance of the posts.

Your note on point 20, is rather useful. I don't think it's a falsehood. I may have been wrong, but to say that I have been fabricating false reasons is a bit disingenous.

I've heard several posters on Boards.ie even say this. I remember I have discussed this topic in particular with Wicknight a few months ago, and I've read it in interactions between other theists such as Hurin, PDN, Fanny Craddock etc, it's certainly a big reason that comes up. What may not pertain for you may pertain for other atheists. LookingFor admitted that many of the reasons I have given may not suit every atheists situation. By and large I think it is a good thread.

I would suggest one thing to you. If you think this is a bad idea or whatever, feel free not to post here complaining about it, as it's likely to get the thread locked for the rest of us who are actually interested in understanding the other whoever it may be.

Kipperhell

Jakkass wrote: »

Your note on point 20, is rather useful. I don't think it's a falsehood. I may have been wrong, but to say that I have been fabricating false reasons is a bit disingenous.

I used the word "seems" so I should be OK as it isn't a statement or actual saying you are lying:P

It is the repetitive use of the same word that is the issue and I have explained why it is an issue and you nearly have it in every point you made. Copy and paste it into a document and do a count or just look at it.
So from my point of view most statement you have made arr incorrect as it uses the incorrect verb but used the correct verb in others.