The others...

philologos

I'm looking for a thread of some form of conciliation here. The point of this thread is to explain why you think that the others believe what they do. For the purposes of this, I would like all theists, to explain why atheists or agnostics believe what they believe, and I would like all non-theists (atheists, agnostics, deists) to attempt to explain why the theist believes what they believe (lets leave it to Christianity for now, but if any Muslims etc post feel free to discuss why they believe what they believe). However, I do not want any theist, to outline why other theists believe what they believe, but rather to explain why the non-theists don't believe. Likewise, I do not want any non-theist to explain why other non-theists believe what they do. Straight forward?

Then after doing this, I want the people being discussed to add any other reasons they can think of to the post. I do not want a debate to arise, but merely a contribution of reasons, and of correction if necessary by those being discussed.

Try to keep it to the following format:

Your belief system: Christian

Why do you think atheists are athiests?:
How do you think that atheists justify being atheist?

1) God seems incompatible with evolutionary biology and modern physics.
2) Pain and suffering cannot exist in the same world as an omnipotent omnibenificent.
3) The church is hypocritical, and abuses have arisen out of it.
4) Christians are hypocritical.
5) Christians are judgemental.
6) It seems hard to accept a universal moral system, that is so closed minded.
7) It's offensive to believe that Jesus is the only way to save ones soul from hell.
8) Faith seems stupid because Christians don't think about what they believe.
9) Miracles seem absurd.
10) Faith seems to breed fanatics, such as suicide bombers, and abortion clinic bombers.
11) Faith seems to be a barrier to a completely secular society.
12) Faith seems to cause hatred and division.
13) Faith seems to breed arrogance.
14) Christians seem to impose standards on non-Christians.
15) God seems to be a monster in certain parts of the Torah, and the historical books.
16) There seems to be a diachotomy between the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament.
17) The Bible seems to be riddled with contradictions.
18) Christianity seems to be too patriarchal.
19) Christianity seems to deny personal freedoms.
20) I have never felt any spiritual experience, as such I have no evidence to believe that they occur.
21) Prayer seems to fall on deaf ears.
22) We have no assurances that divine revelation took place.
23) Christianity seems to be based on archaic moral norms, we need to move on.

I think that I have exhausted them, have a go and then add any to my list if you want.

Zamboni

Belief system: N/A

Why do you think Christians are Christians.

1. The majority were introduced into it from birth. Old habits etc.
2. Scared of mortality (which is fair enough, it sucks).

ChocolateSauce

Belief system: Scientific Method

Why do you believe religious people are religious:

1. They're raised to believe it is true.
2. Human biology.
3. They don't think about it enough/don't know enough about how the universe works.
4. Where there is a question as yet unanswerable, they seek to create one.

Where 3 is not applicable, 2 explains why this is so.

philologos

ChocolateSauce, and Zamboni, it's my fault for not making this clear. However when I said give reasons for why the other would believe. The point of this was so that you could step into the others shoes, and think of reasons why they would accept the belief system they have chosen in their own words. I don't believe that any of the reasons I gave for why atheists believe what they do are really valid in reality, I gave them to allow to try and understand the way that other people think about them. The question that I answered in the OP was probably not really a good one to use as a template, so I will edit it.

dvpower

Your belief system: Atheist

Why do you think Christians are Christians?:

1) They were born into it.
2) They haven't really questioned their beliefs.
3) Billions of other religious people on the planet can't possibly be wrong.
4) Competing (non theist) beliefs don't adequately explain how we became to be / the meaning of life.
5) They are reluctant to question their beliefs for fear of upsetting God.
6) Eternal life is a sweet, sweet deal.
7) Life without some higher power / reason seems meaningless.
8) They have faith.

LookingFor

My belief system: Not sure/NA

Why believers would say they believe:

1) Life without God is pointless and futile
2) There must be an afterlife
3) The world cannot have simply popped out of nothing or out of undirected/unintended/undesigned processes
4) My immortal soul depends on my faith
5) My faith gives me consolation in difficult times
6) My faith helps me give meaning to my life and world
7) The positive benefits of the above feed back into my faith like a virtuous circle, reinforcing my faith as evidence for it
8) My religion is ancient/well-subscribed, it would not have endured if it were not true.
9) Somewhat similar to 8), I defer and respect the wisdom of my forebearers who subscribe to this religion, thus I do too, and I'm not in a position to question it.


..

This is a tricky exercise mind you, since everyone's different..and everyone thinks differently about things. So I suppose we should be mindful that we can't generalise all folks and what they're thinking. I know as a sceptic certainly that many of the things Jakass list don't apply to me, and similarly I know some of the things listed for as what believers may think aren't going to apply to all believers.

sink

Belief system: Humanist

How do you think that theists justify being theists?

Lower standards for determining facts coupled with wishful thinking.

philologos

Again guys. The point of this was to give the reasons that you think that theists actually think are reasons for their faith. It was aimed to be as a get into the others shoes exercise.

LookingFor has done this well so far, and I actually thought about how atheists would justify their atheism in my OP. It isn't really effective if we look at how atheists explain why theists are the way they are.

Feel free to assess the reasons I have given for how atheists justify atheism and to add others as suggestions when looking at my list.

sink

Jakkass wrote: »

Again guys. The point of this was to give the reasons that you think that theists actually think are reasons for their faith. It was aimed to be as a get into the others shoes exercise.

LookingFor has done this well so far, and I actually thought about how atheists would justify their atheism in my OP. It isn't really effective if we look at how atheists explain why theists are the way they are.

Feel free to assess the reasons I have given for how atheists justify atheism and to add others as suggestions when looking at my list.

Taking reference from LookingFor in simply trying to think like a "believer" I feel a massive disconnection with my logic and reasoning and it is quiet uncomfortable almost claustrophobic, I have to close my mind to so much. It seems that my inability to think like and accept anything on that list is the reason I'm an atheist, more so than anything on your list Jackass.

LookingFor

It's not always easy to empathise..but uncomfortable as it may be, to put yourself in someone else's shoes is often an exercise in opening the mind, not so much closing it.

philologos

sink wrote: »

Taking reference from LookingFor in simply trying to think like a "believer" I feel a massive disconnection with my logic and reasoning and it is quiet uncomfortable almost claustrophobic, I have to close my mind to so much. It seems that my inability to think like and accept anything on that list is the reason I'm an atheist, more so than anything on your list Jackass.

If I'm not even able to do this in good humour then what can be done in theist - atheist dialogue. I've tried my best to take my OP from an atheists point of view and I even offered for further discussion on the points that I and others have raised.

You really don't have to close your mind, but rather you have to learn to open it, that's the point of the thread.

taram

Okaies, will give it a go... Am atheist.

I think that Christians believe because:
1. Knowing a deity is there for them in hard times is comforting
2. Having faith that Jesus died to give eternal life, so they and their loved ones can go to heaven and have eternal life, which helps ease fears around death
3. They can see the wonder and beauty in the world around them and believe that God placed it there for their life and enjoyment which would make them happy
4. Having consolation that evil people will suffer in the afterlife for their sins

sink

Jakkass wrote: »

You really don't have to close your mind, but rather you have to learn to open it, that's the point of the thread.

I completely disagree. One cannot open ones mind to something without first closing ones mind to everything contradictory. For example.

1) Life without God is pointless and futile
To open my mind to this I have to close my mind to the knowledge that a life without god can be very fulfilling if you are self motivated.

2) There must be an afterlife
Why? This statement implicitly presupposes a soul (i.e. a non corporeal conciousness) that lives on after we die. Yet neuroscience has shown conciousness to be completely dependent upon the physical brain. I have to close my mind to this knowledge and the likely scenario that without our brain their is no concious and therefore no afterlife. I also have to close my mind to the research being carried out in the field of psychology which points the concepts of a soul and afterlife being by-products of homo-sapiens evolved social ability to externalise and extrapolate the thoughts and motivations of other consciousnesses than their own.

3) The world cannot have simply popped out of nothing or out of undirected/unintended/undersigned processes
While I don't disagree that "The world cannot have simply popped out of nothing", why does that infer the existence of god? It is quiet possible that the universe is being shaped by undirected/unintended/undersigned processes. I would have to close my mind to emergent complexity and the many candidate theories of everything (e.g. string theory).

4) My immortal soul depends on my faith
Presuppose the existence of a soul, closes mind to the non-existence of a soul.

5) My faith gives me consolation in difficult times
I can't gain consolation from something I seriously doubt. Instead I rely upon friends and family to help me through difficult times.

6) My faith helps me give meaning to my life and world
My meaning comes from a sense of wonder at nature and the cosmos and my place within it. I think of myself as cog in a vast system and I will always permeate however insignificantly even after I'm gone. I would rather be a tiny part of something massive and wondrous than a large part of something that seems petty and simple.

7) The positive benefits of the above feed back into my faith like a virtuous circle, reinforcing my faith as evidence for it
Not applicable.

8) My religion is ancient/well-subscribed, it would not have endured if it were not true.
My experience with my fellow man tells me that is simply not the case.

9) Somewhat similar to 8), I defer and respect the wisdom of my forebearers who subscribe to this religion, thus I do too, and I'm not in a position to question it.
They had far less access to education and information than myself, why would I defer to someone with less of an ability to seek the truth than myself?

philologos

sink: That's fine, what I had intended to do was to get the theists to outline the reasons that they think atheists would use to justify their atheism, and then the atheists find the reasons that they think Christians would use to justify their faith. Then with these out in the open, the theists can refine the understanding the atheist has given of them, and the atheist can refine the understanding that the theist has given them so that we can learn more about the other. That was the idea anyway.

Are you really that untrusting of my intentions? I know this is hard, this is why I have asked you to do it.

Tim Robbins

Jakkass wrote: »

Again guys. The point of this was to give the reasons that you think that theists actually think are reasons for their faith. It was aimed to be as a get into the others shoes exercise.

LookingFor has done this well so far, and I actually thought about how atheists would justify their atheism in my OP. It isn't really effective if we look at how atheists explain why theists are the way they are.

Feel free to assess the reasons I have given for how atheists justify atheism and to add others as suggestions when looking at my list.

Good thread. Let me try and answer...

It depends on the believer.
I suspect people like you, PDN, Jimi, Fanny, Noel belief for the following reasons:
1. You believe there are philosophical arguments for their being a creator.
2. You believe that there is historical evidence to support your views. The Gospels are accurare historical texts.
3. You have seen it (what you perceive as Christianity) in action change other people's lifes in an amazing and positive way.
4. It has made your own life far far better.

I believe your lifes are now so dependent on it that it's impossible for you to look at it critically, logically and objectively.

Dades

Sink, any chance we could make it even to page two without flinging out contrary arguments? If you can't put yourself in the position required to answer in the spirit of the post, at least wait until some other more imaginative people have.

Dades

Me: Atheist

Why, if I believed, do I believe?

- I've never known anything but belief
- If God didn't make us, who did?
- It says so in the bible.
- How could a few billion believers be wrong?

Hope I've managed to tow the line here.

JimiTime

Me: Christian (well trying anyway)

What do I think atheists' reasons are for being atheist?

1) There have been so many religions and gods, its obvious its just a human invention.
2) I only believe in things which can be modelled using the scientific method.
3) No loving god would allow a child to die.
4) Science has chased religion into so many corners, changing the religion. zeus lived on Mt. Olympus, then when man reached its summit and found no Zeus, god moved up into the clouds. When man reached the clouds he moved into space etc etc.
5) You must suspend logic and reason in order to believe in God.
6) I see no evidence of God.
7) Things that religious people aportion to God, happen to non-religious people too.
8) Religion breeds violence, bigotry, homophobia etc.
9) Specifically dealing with christianity, the rapes and genocides ordered by God in the OT.
10) Look at the abusive history of the Roman Catholic Church.
11) How can we honestly believe in stories written by desert nomads 4000 years ago.
12) All the stories are wacky. How don't we see miricles now?

I'm sure there are lots more.

Overblood

Me: Atheist, bordering (and moving towards) Anti-theist.

So I'm going to pretend that I'm a Christian and somebody has asked me: "Why are you a Christian?"

In no set order:

1. Because I don't like the idea of death being the end of everything I am. I want to live on after I die, and bask in paradise. Forever.

2. It's nice to know that somebody up there is watching over me, showing interest in me, protecting me.

3. Skilfully cherry-picked, the bible has many passages of good moral guidance that I can live by.

4. Church fosters good community spirit.

5. My parents are Christian, I was born into a Christian family, I shall follow in their footsteps.

6. I feel sorry for Jesus, he died for me.:(

7. If there is no God, then what is there? I can't live with this uncertainty.

8. Knowing that I have a god-given purpose makes me feel happy.

liah

I honestly don't think I can do this without coming off as quite flippant but I'll try..

I'm an Atheist, so I'll try to do the whole Christian thing..

1.) Belief in a higher being helps me better deal with my inner insecurities. If I believe that someone is watching out for me and has a greater plan, I actually have a chance of making something of myself, because without that I would be too frightened and insecure to continue.

2.) I was raised this way. I was spoonfed this since I was a tiny child, it is ingrained into my system to be unquestioning in my faith.

3.) It seems unlikely to me that there will ever be a scientific explanation for the creation of the universe as we currently know it (even though science taught us about the universe as we currently know it.. whoops, flippance coming out, my bad).

4.) I am scared that if I mess up this life, if I lost my belief system I would have no second chance. I feel that restraining myself from some basic pleasures in life and keeping myself pure in the eyes of the Lord will give me a second chance in the afterlife and I will not need to fear death. The idea of a second chance keeps me going through hardships.

I honestly can't think of any more. I seriously have issues understanding why people need faith. I appreciate the exercise but I just don't see it as level ground at all, as I can't shut my brain off far enough to justify the belief in what is, essentially, a fairytale.

Goduznt Xzst

Me: Eudaimonic/Aesthetic Consequentialist

What do I think are Christians' reasons for being Christian?

1. My family and friends share the same Religion as me. Celebrating it with them makes me feel part of the whole
2. The Bible IS de facto a Holy book inspired by God, and as it says God exists and I will achieve eternal existence if I follow Jesus' example I must obey it.
3. So many people have a religion or belief of some kind, this is evidence that we want to know about God. God has instilled this desire in us because he exists.
4. Humans appreciate the beauty of the world, we have been given such a variety of food and sounds and feelings that this world must of been made by God for humans to enjoy.
5. I have lost people close to me or fear my coming death. Death is not natural, I know this, therefore the promise that God has made of immortality must be real.

toiletduck

Me: Atheist

Why do Christian's believe in what they do?

1 - Faith
2 - The sense of community at the church. The goodwill and good works done by same.
3 - Death can't be the end, what happens to our souls?
4 - A real sense of being in the presence of the Lord on pilgrimages, in Novenas etc. Perhaps a perceived spiritual experience?
5 - I'm a better person since embracing God

Kipperhell

Humanist

What people say when they believe in Christianity
1) It makes sense that we were created by God as how else would we be here
2) The Bible tells us there is a God
3) People who have studied all the text understand how the text fits together and don't contradict
4) I feel good when I am praying/participating in religion this is a miracle of god
5) There is morality which wouldn't exist without God
6) God has helped me through tough times
7) There are miracles and beauty around me like sunsets that prove God
8) The message of a Christian God wouldn't have spread unless it was true
9) Why would the churches have been set-up unless there was actually a miracle of resurrection
10) People died preaching the word so it has to be true because why else would they do this?
11) Miracles happen I have seen them
12) I have faith and science doesn't answer everything
13) Nobody knows and I am sticking with what I was raised with as a good moral code
14) I could not live knowing this is all there is


I have heard all of the above from Christians in no particular order

There is a really interesting point to note about thread in that the OP states in a disparaging way about the belief in atheism by use of strike through and the word "seems". As the thread got responses there is then an insistence on stepping into the other person's shoes. It would make sense to change the tone and remove the "seems" and strike through if the actual goal is to remain neutral and debate the subject IMHO.
You never know somebody could be waiting to use these to quote against later statements:eek:

philologos

Kipperhell wrote: »

There is a really interesting point to note about thread in that the OP states in a disparaging way about the belief in atheism by use of strike through and the word "seems". As the thread got responses there is then an insistence on stepping into the other person's shoes. It would make sense to change the tone and remove the "seems" and strike through if the actual goal is to remain neutral and debate the subject IMHO.
You never know somebody could be waiting to use these to quote against later statements:eek:

I didn't intend to be disparaging. I used the word seems precisely for the reason to remain objective, it implies a lack of definitive knowledge. Sam Vimes and others have criticised me for saying that atheism is the belief in God's nonexistence, but rather that atheism is more agnostic. I have heard all these reasons been given to me by atheists, and I thought my 23 reasons were quite conclusive of the atheist position.

The intention of the thread was to clarify how you think the other justifies their position, and then for the others to clarify your misconceptions. I'm waiting for more theists to come and speak about atheism before I start clarifying some of the misunderstandings of how Christians generally put forward their faith, in a calm manner of course, and I invite atheists to do the same with my reasons.

The strike through was used, because I originally used what was in the strike through as the question, but I altered the question as it went along. I thought it was fair.

Kipperhell

Jakkass wrote: »

I have heard all these reasons been given to me by atheists, and I thought my 23 reasons were quite conclusive of the atheist position.

Not really because I would see it that most atheists would replace every "seems" with "is" or "does". I can't speak for all atheists but it isn't
e.g. "13) Faith seems to breed arrogance" should be "13) Faith does breed ignorance". The first is statement suggesting the person is wrong in there knowledge and the second is what they would probably said based on their knowledge/understanding.
As you have stated you are meant to be speaking from the other person's point of view. What you are doing here is reducing the statements based on how you feel about the statements and you also warned other people from doing the same. Do you understand they aren't objective when you do this? The statements I have made are as if a Christian said them and I think you should do the same as you appear to have a misconception that there is doubt about many more statements than your average atheist would have.

If anybody else thinks I am exaggerating the importance of the use of the words please wade in as I could see this being considered a personal gripe.

JimiTime

Kipperhell wrote: »

Not really because I would see it that most atheists would replace every "seems" with "is" or "does". I can't speak for all atheists but it isn't
e.g. "13) Faith seems to breed arrogance" should be "13) Faith does breed ignorance". The first is statement suggesting the person is wrong in there knowledge and the second is what they would probably said based on their knowledge/understanding.
As you have stated you are meant to be speaking from the other person's point of view. What you are doing here is reducing the statements based on how you feel about the statements and you also warned other people from doing the same. Do you understand they aren't objective when you do this? The statements I have made are as if a Christian said them and I think you should do the same as you appear to have a misconception that there is doubt about many more statements than your average atheist would have.

If anybody else thinks I am exaggerating the importance of the use of the words please wade in as I could see this being considered a personal gripe.

I think you are misunderstanding Jackasses motivation in using the word 'seems'. He's trying to apply the word to both the thiest and athiest. Rather than make a conclusive statement, he puts in the word seems so as not to make a definitive statement for either side. He's not denying that you believe that faith breeds arrogance, but if he made such a definitive statement, he isolates the other side. You know what I mean?

Kipperhell

JimiTime wrote: »

I think you are misunderstanding Jackasses motivation in using the word 'seems'. He's trying to apply the word to both the thiest and athiest. Rather than make a conclusive statement, he puts in the word seems so as not to make a definitive statement for either side. He's not denying that you believe that faith breeds arrogance, but if he made such a definitive statement, he isolates the other side. You know what I mean?

The point is he has stated is as what an atheist says so it doesn't actual have to include any reference to how a theist would view it and actively shouldn't . Am I missing the meaning of speaking from another point of view?

MrPudding

JimiTime wrote: »

Me: Christian (well trying anyway)

Yes, very trying sometimes...

I am an Atheist / Humanist trying to not become an anti-theist, but finding the going tough.

Putting myself in the believer’s shoes, why would I believe…

• I simply cannot conceive how something as wondrous and complex as the world we know could come about by chance.
• There have been so many believers before me that they can’t all be wrong.
• So many people have terrible lives, there most be something better for them afterwards.
• I was born into it. It is comfortable now, like a pair of old slippers.
• I get comfort from knowing god is watching over me.
• I know that any suffering I have will be made good in the next life. All the loss I endure here will be made better.
• I believe that the bible is the word of god.
• Were it not for god my life would suck. (cue Kelly Clarkson song)
• Were it not for god we would not know right form wrong and the world would descend into chaos.

I am sure there is more, but that will do to start.

MrP

JimiTime

Kipperhell wrote: »

The point is he has stated is as what an atheist says so it doesn't actual have to include any reference to how a theist would view it and actively shouldn't . Am I missing the meaning of speaking from another point of view?

My bad, I get what you mean. May be splitting heirs a bit though. I'd say its still fair to put 'seems' in, as it speaks from the POV of the atheist who comes from a standpoint of 'Well all I can say is that the evidence would suggest such and such'. Anyway, I'll leave it up to yourself and Jackass.

midlandsmissus

dvpower wrote: »

Your belief system: Atheist

Why do you think Christians are Christians?:

1) They were born into it.
2) They haven't really questioned their beliefs.
3) Billions of other religious people on the planet can't possibly be wrong.
4) Competing (non theist) beliefs don't adequately explain how we became to be / the meaning of life.
5) They are reluctant to question their beliefs for fear of upsetting God.
6) Eternal life is a sweet, sweet deal.
7) Life without some higher power / reason seems meaningless.
8) They have faith.

Just in reply to this post and similiar: I am a christian and wasn't born into being christian.

I was born into an atheist family:

I think there could be a theory that alot of people become what they are in order to rebel against their parents.

That could be a factor in what I did. After all how many people on here are born athiests.

Think about it, do you think this could be a factor?

If you think nobody questions what they are born into you are very wrong.

midlandsmissus

I am christian I think people are athiest due to: ( I am going to be brutally honest here)


- Lack of proof/evidence
- Rebelling against family authority/practices
- Young exisitentialist angst at everything (majority of atheists are young)
- Only see the catholic view of doing things (in Ireland) reject this, and then consider all religion to be sh*te (there is so much more to God that catholicism!)
- Like to consider themselves intelligently superior to the other 'sheep' in the world.
- Like to think that only they really think about and question things and everyone else is stupid
- Like to be cool and in with the crowd (atheism is the 'cool' thing these days)