Lufthansa Airmotive workers can feck off!!

1 of 465 · 22-04-2009 11:33AM

To all of you "experts" on the situation of LTAI please note the following;
A total 465 people work in LTAI. Of that total almost 1/3 of the workforce are non unionised staff and had no vote in yesterday's ballot. In the end there was only 17 votes in the difference between the yes and no camp. Effectively we have a situation where 148 workers are holding 317 colleagues to ransom! We live in a democracy and those who voted to reject the labour court recommendation felt they had their reasons for doing so which was their right!
We are not all "gob****es" as some of you referred to us. Most of us want to keep our jobs and are willing to work with the company's terms to secure our livelihoods. We do not all have a cushy number and the vast majority of us work hard for our wages. Until you work in here or actually have some genuine knowledge of the way our company is run I suggest you keep your "opinions" to yourselves. Not every member of LTAI has voted themselves out of a job and some of your comments are just rude and unfounded!

Mr Benevolent · 22-04-2009 11:42AM

Gah, the font!

Most posters here are not calling you a gobsh*te, their problem is with the 148 that voted no. So in essence they're saying the same as you.

1 of 465 · 22-04-2009 11:50AM

most of us in here are worried about our jobs.... the font in my post is the least of my worries!
what we are asking is that you don't tar us all with the same brush as those you term gob****es, don't compare us to SRT (every case is different) and don't write us off just yet. As i'm sure all workers who have faced redundancy know, this is a very upsetting time and people making assuptions who do not fully understand our predicament does not help. Have a little consideration please!

Sanjuro · 22-04-2009 12:02PM

While not as vitriolic, I do somewhat agree with the OP. Nobody wants to take a pay cut. We all think we deserve to be paid more than we earn. Whether this is true or not is a different matter. However, anyone who willingly and knowingly sabotages their own job (and the jobs of their colleagues) deserves little sympathy. I lose my job next week, and I'd gladly take a pay cut over unemployment, but unfortunately I don't have that option. These workers who voted to kill their own jobs are cutting off their nose to spite their face. I feel for those workers who had no voice.

Rented Mule · 22-04-2009 12:48PM

handsomecake wrote: »

crazy. i know a few lads there who are mid twenties like myself. no pension. they own houses and cars and said the redunancy would not even clear their credit card.also its a specialised industry. these guys invested time and money to become qualified,a lot of them dont know how to work at anything else

Not meant to hijack this thread, but:

1) mid-20s with cars, mortgage, no pension and credit card debt seems like they should have had a better understand of their own finaces.

2) a few years ago there was an article that came out and said that 70% of the irish population would be 'un-hireable' in the next 20 years unless they retrained themselves.

I am 40 years old and have had to change careers six or seven times during my working life. It is something that you have to do.

The days of getting a trade and working from one company and then collection a pension has gone the way of the dodo.

Situations like this need to be a huge wakeup call for everyone in the country.

dade · 22-04-2009 01:10PM

handsomecake wrote: »

i know this for a fact. its .84 of a weeks wages for every year worked.
one guy got 38000 for 20 years service.****e

sounds strange when the statutory amount is 2 weeks per year worked is it not?

handsomecake · 22-04-2009 01:12PM

Rented Mule wrote: »

Not meant to hijack this thread, but:

1) mid-20s with cars, mortgage, no pension and credit card debt seems like they should have had a better understand of their own finaces.

2) a few years ago there was an article that came out and said that 70% of the irish population would be 'un-hireable' in the next 20 years unless they retrained themselves.

I am 40 years old and have had to change careers six or seven times during my working life. It is something that you have to do.

The days of getting a trade and working from one company and then collection a pension has gone the way of the dodo.

Situations like this need to be a huge wakeup call for everyone in the country.

they did have pensions and SRT pissed it away.no money left in the pot.
yes they have a car and a house but they dont own mock georgian houses and bentleys.

i make decent cash myself and if i lost my job tomorrow i would be ****ed. the car etc doesnt pay for itself. thats my point. redundancy softens the blow(supposedly) the paltry sums they were given would not last a fortnight

handsomecake · 22-04-2009 01:18PM

dade wrote: »

sounds strange when the statutory amount is 2 weeks per year worked is it not?

yeah. its statutory plus .84 of a weeks wage. but the company can apparently get the government to contribute the statutory bit afaik.

all i know is that it was an abysmal package they got.

wicklori · 22-04-2009 02:27PM

Thank God someone is talking about this. My OH works there and the stress levels have been just up the walls-this is going on for months.

I have VERY red socks but F***ing hell! At one stage the attitude was that the staff would be better off with no job than to 'give in'!

What are the Unions thinking? Have they not looked outside the gate over there or what??? There are NO JOBS for these guys (mostly-some women I believe). Many of them have worked there for years and are pretty much unemployable in any other context.

Lufthansa is standing by, waiting to invest €30million. Ok, MAYBE they are jumping on the recesssion bandwagon BUT -they hold the cards! Voting down labour court recommendations is not going to 'teach them' or whatever the attitude is....:mad:

I work in public sector and have had a huge pay cut recently-but I thank God every night that I have a job at all. What is wrong with these people?!?!?!

Jip · 22-04-2009 03:30PM

wicklori wrote: »

What is wrong with these people?!?!?!

I think you will find that they are morons in that they're blindly following the idiotic unions chest beating. IMO unions are the problem with this county at the moment. They've no sense or reality, just look at the teachers last week, a PR disaster for them and done nothing to gain public support.

1 of 465 · 22-04-2009 03:48PM

Wicklori,

As your OH works in Lufthansa, I hope and I'm sure that you are fully aware that those who voted down the LC recommendation are actually a minority and do not fully represent the sentimenets of the workforce as a whole! Had the entire workforce been balloted, the result would have been quite different. This is the point that many onlookers do not realise & its a fact that needs to be appreciated. Spare a thought for those workers who did not have any say at all and have no control over their futures!

wicklori · 22-04-2009 03:52PM

1 in 465 you and the rest of the workers have my utmost sympathy. I also heard that many of those who voted against the proposals are the ones most likely to be 'last out'? My fellas a disaster for passing on info so I may be wrong.
It must be the worst postition to be in-to either have voted for the proposals and really want to keep your job; or to not have been in a position to vote at all.

Question-thought all workers over there had to be in a union?

1 of 465 · 22-04-2009 04:02PM

Wicklori,
There are sections of the plant which are unionised and others which aren't. Almost 1/3 of the workforce are not memebers of a union and before people start going on about it being their own faults for not joining a union, please be aware that even if they opted to independely join a union, they would still not have qualified for a vote yesterday! there are a lot of inaccuracies out there about our situation so please everyone, bear in mind that the recommedation was rejected by the narrowest of margins and we're not all "morons following the unions".

wicklori · 22-04-2009 04:09PM

1 of 465 wrote: »

Wicklori,
There are sections of the plant which are unionised and others which aren't. Almost 1/3 of the workforce are not memebers of a union and before people start going on about it being their own faults for not joining a union, please be aware that even if they opted to independely join a union, they would still not have qualified for a vote yesterday! there are a lot of inaccuracies out there about our situation so please everyone, bear in mind that the recommedation was rejected by the narrowest of margins and we're not all "morons following the unions".

Well I'm glad my fella at least got to vote.

It's very tough that the opinions of one third of the workforce are not taken into account. I wonder if there's anything that could be done from that angle?

The one question I still have is did the Unions make a recommendation to their members as to whether to accept or reject the labour court recommendation? You probably aren't privvy to that kind of info.

The whole situation is desperate. This company is approching the plughole very quickly and it's only a small few idiots who have caused it in the end...

I hope the Union leaders over there sleep well at night... Doubtlessly better than the rest of us...

Jip · 22-04-2009 04:15PM

1 of 465 wrote: »

we're not all "morons following the unions".

I was commented on those that do, not the obviously sensible people like yourself

DubDani · 22-04-2009 06:08PM

Didn't take the company very long to respond. Very efficient and no nonsense these germans.

All the employees have been put on protective Notice, and up to a 150 people will be laid off from the end of the month.

http://breakingnews.ie/business/eyauqlidojcw/

tommu · 22-04-2009 06:16PM

I concur with your posting.
Added to the potential loss of employment at airmotive I would also add that the commercial engine overhaul business in Ireland would come to an end. The aviation business here has seen losses, this loss will adversely impact the employment of many other highly skilled trades and professionals. It's this type of business that Ireland needs to retain and grow. Lufthansa intended to put 40 million into the business for re-tooling to facilitate overhaul of more modern engines (P&W V2500 I believe).
Hope common sense prevails and your jobs plus a great business are saved.

FlutterinBantam · 22-04-2009 07:09PM

thelordofcheese wrote: »

It's funny how you can write an insightless and cliché ridden diatribe about the "looney left" when you've got nothing to do with the place.

Amazing really.

How do you know that??

If you took the time to read my post and not go off half cocked,you would see that my sentiments are corroborated by many other posters.

I have a lot of experience in commercial life, and quite frankly buddy, one place of work does not differ greatly from another.

walzer · 22-04-2009 08:35PM

Have to agree with the general opinion on this thread - those who voted against the cost savings are digging their own graves.

The management may be top heavy, maybe they couldn't care less, maybe they're treating the workers very unfairly. But on the other hand maybe they're looking at a particular market, with more and more competition coming from low cost countries like China, and they just have to find savings. Maybe it's that or else the whole company goes down.

I just feel many unionised workers in this country don't really have a feel for what a free market really is. There are NO guarantees - it's dog eat dog. There are no reasons whatsoever that we should be given jobs by multinationals before low cost countries, who's workers will willingly do very long hours for very little pay.

jimmycrackcorm · 22-04-2009 08:45PM

I've no doubt that companies are using the recession to squeeze wages, however now is not the time to attempt a losing battle.

tommu · 22-04-2009 09:06PM

The impact of Airmotive's potential demise is substantial.
A major element in the food chain of the aviation business in Ireland. It's closure will result in some Irish subcontractors closing down. A fantastic skill base lost, possibly for ever, it will impact thousands.
Don't look at this as a loss of 450+ jobs, It's a lot more substantial than that.
I would look very hard for a fix, the blame game is secondary, by a long way.

memo_to_all · 22-04-2009 09:11PM

So the unions are playing a game of brinkmanship with the German Management....maybe they are listening to J.O.C a little too much.

Im still at a loss as to what the unions think they are going to achieve by closing the plant.

As your OH works in Lufthansa, I hope and I'm sure that you are fully aware that those who voted down the LC recommendation are actually a minority and do not fully represent the sentimenets of the workforce as a whole!

So one could almost desciribe the minority as criminals!!

2nd of 465 · 22-04-2009 09:21PM

I work at LTAI and am a Union member, I voted to accept the terms the Company Proposed, as 1 of 465 said there is a large number of employees unrepresented by the Trade Unions out there, we are not all Morons as has been suggested, I take great offence to the suggestion that we are,

memo_to_all · 22-04-2009 09:25PM

2nd of 465 wrote: »

I work at LTAI and am a Union member, I voted to accept the terms the Company Proposed, as 1 of 465 said there is a large number of employees unrepresented by the Trade Unions out there, we are not all Morons as has been suggested, I take great offence to the suggestion that we are,

Can you not do something about the Nay-sayers?
Are they the minority?

Turkeyspotter · 22-04-2009 09:33PM

Airmotive unions = turkeys voting for Christmas = arseholes.....

I cannot understand why Labour Court decisions are not binding. This should have been done years ago. If this were the case each side should submit their case to the LRC the court which would make a decision. If the looser goes against the decision there should be a fine. So if the company does not comply it would face a fine. In the case of unions, possibly even where the strike is unofficial, union funds would be taken on a compulsory basis for each day the LRC decision was not complied with.

Unfortunately we are looking at legacy of Bertie who when in power couldn't take a hard decision to save his life. There was a proposal to make LRC decisions binding in the past but unfortunately our elected representatives were too busy taking the easy way out and buying off the unelected social partners.

2nd of 465 · 22-04-2009 09:33PM

What can be done, had a stand up row with one of them today might as well been talking to the wall, I have made enemies over the last couple of weeks trying to get these people to see the light, the problem is the very few have influenced a few more, it is to some extent a case of the empty vessel making most noise,

2nd of 465 · 22-04-2009 09:41PM

Not sure I like being refered to as an arsehole, walk a mile in our shoes turkey and then comment, till then keep it to yourself,

FlutterinBantam · 22-04-2009 09:41PM

wicklori wrote: »

Well I'm glad my fella at least got to vote.

It's very tough that the opinions of one third of the workforce are not taken into account. I wonder if there's anything that could be done from that angle?

The one question I still have is did the Unions make a recommendation to their members as to whether to accept or reject the labour court recommendation? You probably aren't privvy to that kind of info.

The whole situation is desperate. This company is approching the plughole very quickly and it's only a small few idiots who have caused it in the end...

I hope the Union leaders over there sleep well at night... Doubtlessly better than the rest of us...

Unfortunately Poster ,they will.

These people spend their lives "railing against the machine" oblivious of the true reality of things,however they came about, and totally consumed with the notion of beating the big boss.

These people have been part of all companies and unfortunately usually hold sway over the less militant section of the workforce.

while it's not always true, you will find that they usually have a lot less to lose than most workers,e.g both working for different concerns, usually in the semi state or public service.

Don't let yourselves be ridden ragged by a few misaligned warhorses.

Stand up for yourselves.

memo_to_all · 22-04-2009 09:44PM

Please try and explain how the union members reckon they will be better off having their 5 minutes of glory and telling management to feck off....

2nd of 465 · 22-04-2009 09:49PM

memo_to_all wrote: »

Please try and explain how the union members reckon they will be better off having their 5 minutes of glory and telling management to feck off....

I wish I could, as I said above a very small few influencing a few more,

Lufthansa Airmotive workers can feck off!!

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