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All TV channels missing, but radio is fine - any ideas?

  • 19-04-2009 06:05PM
    #1
    pipkato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭


    I've 'lost' my four DVB-T TV channels on my Panasonic PZ81 plasma.

    On Friday evening I switched the TV on to find some message about new DVB-T channels added and without reading in any detail I did what I've done before and clicked on 'OK'. When everything re-started again I had my DVB radio services but no TV channels at all.

    I've tried all the options - manual rescan, auto rescan, powered off TV, unplugged TV, changed aerial etc, but still no sign of the DVB-T TV channels. Everything else on the Panasonic works fine. So no problems with Freesat, or analogue TV.

    And, here's the weird thing - I have a Humax DVB-T tuner working in the next room and it receives the channels fine, although TG4 is just showing a test card.

    Just wondered if anyone has any idea of what might be going on here?

    I don't know if the DVB-T tuner has separate Radio and TV sections and if the TV side could be broken, or if there's some other peculiarity about the DVB-T tests that could shut down TV channels on one particular brand of tuner but leave them available on another.

    Thanks.


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Comments

  • #2
    SRB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 820 ✭✭✭SRB


    You are not alone ! Others have posted similar findings - can this thread be merged Mods ?


  • #3
    Satfinder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35 ✭Satfinder


    Hello,

    I can confirm this. As of Friday evening sometime, my PZ81 will no longer tune the DTT signals, but my HTPC still can. My guess is that RTE NL has changed something in the transport stream to stop Freeview receivers tuning in the audio of the test transmissions (so people won't be yakking about not picking up the video and why doesn't RTE do something when the service goes live) and that the PZ81 and possibly other receivers that hitherto could pull in the video are collateral damage.

    I hope I'm wrong, because that would mean my one-set-to-tune-them-all solution is now toast.

    I suggest anyone pulling in the video ok via their TV tuner resist the temptation to do a rescan (as I and the OP did) just to see what happens, as they may lose all bar the radio channels (as I and the OP did).

    Could someone post the links to any other thread discussing this? Or is the discussion buried in one of the stickies?

    Thanks


  • #4
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    Important thing is not to panic, engineering tweaking.

    That model is not a "freeview" receiver for a start. That is only a brand name for british terrestrial. As it is the tuners in the panzi 81 range do more than the spec for freeview. The DVB-T tuner is only pulling in the DTT because the same processor is being used to enable the HD broadcasts from the DVB-S tuner. I would think RTE NL have more to be doing than singling out one manufacturers model for special attention.

    It is all down to the spec of the LCD itself. But its clear whatever changes have been made the pani doesnt like from what has been posted. I cant see anything straight off that has changed other than the audio bit rate dropped down to 128.

    Transport Stream analysing time.


  • #5
    SRB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 820 ✭✭✭SRB


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055540758
    and also mentioned in the Kippure thread.
    Something has changed, if I scan Three Rock on a freeview box, it lists the 8 channels, and their names, but is only storing the radio channels. The channels from Kippure are still there, no picture obviously, but I suspect if I rescanned 61 they'd go too ! Haven't got the laptop with me to look at the TS, but I'm sure someone else on here will be able to see what's changed.


  • #6
    Satfinder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35 ✭Satfinder


    Thanks for the update guys.

    I can confirm that at least one PZ81 owner of my acquaintance is STILL receiving the DTT signals, although whether this is because he is not receiving from the same mast as I am (i.e., Three Rock, but I think he is) or because he didn't rescan recently (which he didn't) is unclear.

    I'd still advise anyone currently receiving the DTT signals ok on anything other than a PC (which you can hack if things go awry) NOT TO RESCAN for the moment.

    I've no access to Freeview signals, but I'd imagine that the UK DTT transmissions have a distinctive signature, and that DVB-T receivers intended for the UK market (i.e., "Freeview receivers") will not pull in signals that deviate too much from that signature.

    If this latest change has affected more than just the Pannies, it may be a deliberate action by RTE NL to change the Irish DTT signature to stymie UK-market receivers for the reasons I mentioned in my last post.

    Unfortunately, it never occurred to me to snag a full transport stream on my PC before the weekend, so I've nothing to parse to see what has changed in the meantime. Maybe someone else has been able to play "spot-the-difference" on the revised multiplex format, but even if we know what has changed, I can hardly hack my Panny to ignore it.

    Fingers crossed that RTE NL will tweak this latest change back out again - do you think if I asked them nicely?.....


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  • #7
    psham
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭psham


    Satfinder wrote: »
    Thanks for the update guys.

    I can confirm that at least one PZ81 owner of my acquaintance is STILL receiving the DTT signals, although whether this is because he is not receiving from the same mast as I am (i.e., Three Rock, but I think he is) or because he didn't rescan recently (which he didn't) is unclear.

    I'd still advise anyone currently receiving the DTT signals ok on anything other than a PC (which you can hack if things go awry) NOT TO RESCAN for the moment.

    I've no access to Freeview signals, but I'd imagine that the UK DTT transmissions have a distinctive signature, and that DVB-T receivers intended for the UK market (i.e., "Freeview receivers") will not pull in signals that deviate too much from that signature.

    If this latest change has affected more than just the Pannies, it may be a deliberate action by RTE NL to change the Irish DTT signature to stymie UK-market receivers for the reasons I mentioned in my last post.

    Unfortunately, it never occurred to me to snag a full transport stream on my PC before the weekend, so I've nothing to parse to see what has changed in the meantime. Maybe someone else has been able to play "spot-the-difference" on the revised multiplex format, but even if we know what has changed, I can hardly hack my Panny to ignore it.

    Fingers crossed that RTE NL will tweak this latest change back out again - do you think if I asked them nicely?.....

    Ive the same panasonic as you and rescanned with same result.. radio but no tv channels.. Friend of mine has same tv but didn,t rescan and still has rte's ect..
    As stb say's, its a test... it'll come back i'm sure..

    I also have an mpeg2 lcd and i couldn't recieve anything until signal was changed friday.. (all sound /no picture now)

    obviously RTE have some way to go until they settle on a fixed standard, and from what i've heard , rte engineers are using boards.ie as a free resource for their trials.. ie as soon as signal is changed engineers log on and see how it affected different people..


  • #8
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Good on them . please state the relevant transmitter/channel numbers at all times so willye :cool:


  • #9
    SRB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 820 ✭✭✭SRB


    Kippure 61, Three Rock 54.
    Both will only store the radio channels on bog standard Freeview box - rescanned Three Rock on MPEG4 box and it's "lost" it's channel numbers, only the Network ID numbers appearing on all 4 TV channels. Might explain why they aren't being stored on Freeview box as it doesn't "know" where to put them...


  • #10
    togota
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭togota


    just to confirm: no rception near three rock. using a PC to watch dtt. checked my old scans and cant get anything there either. funny enough i get EPG data for all four tv channels but no picture on a recent scan.


  • #11
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    Is there a manual tuner on the DVB for the panasonic PZ81 ? Or is it autoscan only ? ( i dont recall seeing one on the 37LZD81B).

    I retuned here on a Sony Bravia - and its fine picking up 3Rock epg etc.

    Something in the header data of the TS Stream I would think causing the problems.

    Perhaps a Pani owner would like to bring to the attention of RTENL ? And see if its a proposed permanent change, and find out a possible solution....

    I'm thinking its a way around dealing with cross border/near use of frequencies. Pressli vs Three Rock/Kippure. A network identifier.....


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  • #12
    Satfinder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35 ✭Satfinder


    Hi,

    Yeah, there's a manual tune option, but I suspect it deletes the channels demultiplexed from that carrier before it scans (say) channel 54. It's what I'd do, anyhow. So don't try it, any PZ81 owners that still have reception!

    A manual scan on either channel 54 or 61 still produces nada for me bar radio channels as of last night some time.


  • #13
    SRB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 820 ✭✭✭SRB


    It NOT just PZ81 owners - Don't do a Rescan on anything !!!


  • #14
    slegs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭slegs


    Did a rescan on my Sony night before last when my channels disappeared and it picked up the revised signal with EPG this time. (Mt Leinster 666Mhz)


  • #15
    skycatcher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32 ✭skycatcher


    I did a re-scan on my pani 81z before reading this thread :mad: and lost the tv like everyone else . I get my service from clermaont carn on ch53. I tried a rescan again just now but still only get the radio. The signal strength/quality has improved greatly though (!) - might just be the nice weather though...


  • #16
    Mayo Exile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭Mayo Exile


    Did a manual re-scan on my Sony W4000. EPG info had gone. TV stations stored as per normal. EPG info back too. Also noticed that it takes TG4 quite a long time to appear now. It can be 20 or 30 seconds before the test card appears.


  • #17
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    Well I saw it first hand last night on the pani 37LZD81B which is the LCD smaller brother of the PZ81.

    Have an idea as to whats causing the problem on some makes of idtv. RTE are broadcasting data in the TS stream that is labelling the radio channels 801-804. And have set the TV channels numbering to 001 002 003 & 004 for the TV channels and the pani doesnt know what to do with them from what I can see - doesnt seem to be picking up the logical channel number.

    The Uk has a similar iussue with the NIT in Freeview when they first launched.


  • #18
    SRB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 820 ✭✭✭SRB


    They were set like this before though - in the channel list RTE1 is beside BBC1, RTE2 is beside BBC2, TV3 is beside UTV and TG4 beside Ch4 on one of my boxes so when it was first scanned a week or so ago it simply slotted them in along side the existing 1,2,3,4 channels.
    On the other boxes, it put them at the end of the channel list, presumably because the slots were taken. It's the same with BBC1 Wales which is also alongside BBC1 NI and RTE1 in that boxes channel menu.

    Ah- right - see what you mean, the boxes don't know what to do with "001" - Yes, it may actually just be a mistake.


  • #19
    fat-tony
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,711 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    Did a scan on the Greystones Relay with Transedit. The NIT seems to have changed as it contains additional descriptors. The CAT (PID=1) is missing as is the MPEG audio stream (1204) for TG4.

    Someone with more experience of the PID data may be able to shed some light.

    I've attached a scan from 05/04 as well as today's one.


  • #20
    pipkato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭pipkato


    Thanks to all who replied with confirmation of the problem and suggestions for a solution. I've been trying to get someone in RTE NL but, so far, without success. Let's hope they're aware of the issue.


  • #21
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭Apogee


    fat-tony wrote: »
    Did a scan on the Greystones Relay with Transedit. The NIT seems to have changed as it contains additional descriptors. The CAT (PID=1) is missing as is the MPEG audio stream (1204) for TG4.

    Someone with more experience of the PID data may be able to shed some light.

    I've attached a scan from 05/04 as well as today's one.

    The correction to the EPG data happened around 30/31 March. However, if you look the SDT in your grab from 5/4, the ONID is reported as 12081 in the SDT, but as 8564 in the SDT for the 21/4 grab. The bitrates for the channels seems to have been unlocked, although that could be because TG4 is just a testcard and the excess is being shared out with the other channels.

    They seem to be changing the stream data with greater regularity. A few days ago it version 15. Now it's up to version 21. They also appear to be packing in a lot more descriptive information into the tables.

    April 4th
    3411477821_bc3407632b_o.jpg

    April 21
    3463809778_f4bbfdc91b_o.jpg

    April 21 NIT contd "advanced codec SD digital television"
    3463903458_77349cc0eb_o.jpg


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  • #22
    fat-tony
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,711 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    I first reported the ONID discrepancies last month as being the likely cause of some people having difficulties with the EPG stream on their TVs or STBs. I was able to correct it in DVBviewer for myself and it didn't seem to affect the Mvision box at all. RTE seem to be playing about with the data stream all the time during testing so there's no definitive action you can take until it stabilises. On occasions, during analysis scans with Transedit, I can see some of the audio streams being marked as AAC for a time, so they are obviously trying out various settings.


  • #23
    togota
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭togota


    just to confirm that i was able to get all channels from three rock after my last post. tg4 with test picture. epg working on dvbviewer. might have been that the signal was just down temp.


  • #24
    pipkato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭pipkato


    A colleague within RTE suggested that the changes made on Friday last had been reversed and that a complete factory reset of my PZ81 Panasonic to what's called 'Shipping Condition' would solve my problem.

    So I had a go at a factory reset and let the Auto-Tune happen again for DVB and Analogue. But the bad news is that I still just got the Radio services on DVB, beginning again at 801. I'm in Dublin 6, so pretty sure I'm getting my signals from (line-of-sight) Three Rock.

    Is this problem confined to Panasonic tuners, or are others having the same issue? Has anyone else been in touch with RTE NL about the problem?


  • #25
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    It's just transmission tests, not content tests. There is NO point in contacting RTENL at the moment.

    This is NOT a public trial.


  • #26
    fat-tony
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,711 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    While I appreciate the point that your TV can't resolve the digital data properly at the moment we don't seem to have a forum where we can feed back formally to RTE about their settings. While RTE are "testing" settings there's probably not a lot of point in random complaints about a service that's not live yet.
    I'm sure (I assume anyway) that RTE have people on a panel who are using various types of TV receivers and STBs and are feeding back reception reports.:confused:
    It would be nice (and I've said this before) if we had a formal contact with technical bods in RTE who could keep us up-to-date with developments (much like the BBC HD technical staff who post on UK forums and produce blogs regularly). It would be useful for us all.:)


  • #27
    SRB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 820 ✭✭✭SRB


    fat-tony wrote: »
    I'm sure (I assume anyway) that RTE have people on a panel who are using various types of TV receivers and STBs and are feeding back reception reports.:confused:
    It would be nice (and I've said this before) if we had a formal contact with technical bods in RTE who could keep us up-to-date with developments (much like the BBC HD technical staff who post on UK forums and produce blogs regularly). It would be useful for us all.:)

    Some of the engineering staff DO read this board, I know they probably can't post on it, but they are out there - was talking to one of them just after the DTT transmissions resumed from Three Rock.


  • #28
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭Apogee


    fat-tony wrote: »
    I first reported the ONID discrepancies last month as being the likely cause of some people having difficulties with the EPG stream on their TVs or STBs.

    I know - that's why I mentioned it! In your post on the 14th March, DVBViewer was reading 8564 for both the ONID and NID. When I tried on the 4th April (after the EPG fix) it read 12081 for both the NID and ONID.

    Since the most recent changes, is DVBViewer reading the correct individual values for ONID and NID?


  • #29
    Irish Bazza
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19 ✭Irish Bazza


    Radio stations numbers 5,6,7 & 8 now showing as 901,902,903 & 904 on Kippure. The number change was automatic update and didn't require a rescan. Also found digital text, by pressing your text button on the radio stations (takes a few seconds). It looks good, much better than BBC DTT text. I like the adverts, a good revenue opportunity for RTE.

    Bring on the 4 TV stations soon.


  • #30
    maxg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 516 ✭✭✭maxg


    @Apogee
    Could you check the service type in the SDT?
    It looks like there was a change from 0x01 (Digital TV) to 0x16 (Mpeg4 SD).


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  • #31
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭Apogee


    TSReader doesn't seem to list the service type in the SDT, other than that shown in the pics under NIT. I've attached the full output exported as a .htm file from TSReader - uploaded as a .zip file.


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