All TV channels missing, but radio is fine - any ideas?

Apogee

StreamGuru SDT:

maxg

Ok, there was a service type change from 0x01 to 0x16 or 22 in decimal.
That is probably the reason for the problems with the panasonic freesat tv's.
Service type 0x16 is not defined in the firmware.

Service Type
00 = reserved
01(0x01) = Digital Television Service
02(0x02) = digital Radio Sound Service
03(0x03) = Teletext Service
04(0x04) = NVOD Reference Service
05(0x05) = NVOD Time-Shifted Service
06(0x06) = Mosaic Service
07(0x07) = reserved
08(0x08) = reserved
09(0x09) = reserved
10(0x0A) = Advanced Codec Digital Radio Sound Service
11(0x0B) = Advanced Codec Mosaic Service
12(0x0C) = Data Broadcast Service
13(0x0D) = Reserved for Common Interface Usage
14(0x0E) = RCS Map
15(0x0F) = RCS FLS
16(0x10) = DVB MHP service
17(0x11) = MPEG-2 HD Digital Television Service
18(0x12) = reserved
19(0x13) = reserved
20(0x14) = reserved
21(0x15) = reserved
22(0x16) = Advanced Codec SD Digital Television Service
23(0x17) = Advanced Codec SD NVOD Time-Shifted Service
24(0x18) = Advanced Codec SD NVOD Reference Service
25(0x19) = Advanced Codec HD Digital Television Service
26(0x1A) = Advanced Codec HD NVOD Time-Shifted S.
27(0x1B) = Advanced Codec HD NVOD Reference Service

fat-tony

Apogee wrote: »

I know - that's why I mentioned it! In your post on the 14th March, DVBViewer was reading 8564 for both the ONID and NID. When I tried on the 4th April (after the EPG fix) it read 12081 for both the NID and ONID.

Since the most recent changes, is DVBViewer reading the correct individual values for ONID and NID?

As of right now (12:41) Transedit is reporting 12801 decimal for the NID and 8564 decimal for the ONID. DVBviewer is set to 8564 and is NOT picking up EPG info on any channels (TV or radio) EXCEPT RTE2 and TG4. Looking at the stream in Transedit I can see a linkage entry (0x4A - only for the service IDs for RTE2 and TG4) which is displaying a link to an ONID value of 8564 decimal. The service IDs for the other six channels do not have this linkage entry and are not displaying an EPG in DVBviewer. The EPG data is present, though, for all eight services. It's just that DVBviewer is not able to extract them automatically except for RTE2 and TG4.
Obviously all combinations of settings are being explored by RTE.

Satfinder

Maxg's analysis looks correct, and supports my theory that the change in the stream contents last week was intended to stop UK receivers detecting the television channels.

We're unlikely to get RTE NL to change this. The specs for the minimum receiver requirements are here but I've seen no published specifications for the format of the transmitted stream. Presumably any STB manufacturer has to infer this from the receiver spec.

I've not had the energy to look at the DVB-T spec to check (life is too short) but if "Advanced Codec" means "H.264" and/or "AAC" in their jargon, RTE NL are just complying with the spec in changing the service type to 16H, thereby advising all the MPEG2-only boxes (and the PZ81s plus a few other iDTV sets) that they cannot decode the video.

One byte in a conditional branch in the PZ81 firmware seems to be stopping us picking up the television channels. If only we could figure out which one.

Hissing Sideban

It would be very cynical of anyone to suggest that it was no coincidence that the DTT TV went into a different 'test' mode on the same day Boxer officially pulled the plug leaving RTE in the Lurch!

maxg

@Satfinder
Advanced Codec SD means mpeg4 AVC H.264 level3 for SD.
Due to the specs RTE can choose between 0x01 and 0x16. If the target is to stop UK mpeg2 receiver from showing such channels after a scan in the channel list they will use 0x16.
The problem is all mpeg2 receiving units with working neotion cams are also switched off after a scan with 0x16 and all mpeg4 receivers which are not fully following the dvb specs.

bob11

Hi there,

Just tried to set up my new PZ81 tonight for the first time ...
In Dublin, Rathmines here and like others here, I can only get the 4 radio channels as well ...

Is the general view here that RTE have changed the format of the broadcast stream so that TVs like mine will no longer work ?

What would be the possible logic for this ?

Very disaappointed here as the only reason for buying the PZ81 up north was the dual functions of FreeSat and MPEG4 ..

Appreciate any assistance or views ...

Cheers,

Bob

SRB

I wouldn't panic, as Watty has pointed out, these are tests, maybe they've been taken aback by the amount of people watching or 'phoning to ask "why isn't my TV/Set Top Box storing the channels ?". Maybe they want to hide them simply because they are tests...

STB

Satfinder wrote: »

Maxg's analysis looks correct, and supports my theory that the change in the stream contents last week was intended to stop UK receivers detecting the television channels.

We're unlikely to get RTE NL to change this. The specs for the minimum receiver requirements are here but I've seen no published specifications for the format of the transmitted stream. Presumably any STB manufacturer has to infer this from the receiver spec.

The number of people with idtvs far outweighs the number of people in cross border areas. The neotion cam was seen as a solution for legacy tvs by the initial company that won the commercial dtt contract. Being obstructive for digital switch on would not make sense.

Dont forget that this change has obstructed TVs that CAN decode mpeg4 transmissions. Not just idtv's that can be fixed with a credit card sized object that fits in the back of your TV.

They are engineering tests, these boards are being read by TV engineers (as well as the radio tx engineers perhaps!) I have no doubt that they will tweak it or go back to an earlier version.

Apogee

maxg wrote: »

If the target is to stop UK mpeg2 receiver from showing such channels after a scan in the channel list they will use 0x16.
The problem is all mpeg2 receiving units with working neotion cams are also switched off after a scan with 0x16 and all mpeg4 receivers which are not fully following the dvb specs.

Well spotted on the SDT change. Are you a DVB engineer?

Ultimately, it's hard to imagine they would risk blanking non-compliant mpeg4 receivers or TVs simply to prevent the channels scanning in on a Freeview box.

For any other insomniacs, the full DVB-SI specification is attached.

"Digital Video Broadcasting (DVB); Specification for Service Information (SI) in DVB systems - DVB Document A038r5 April 2009"

maxg

The target not to disturb dvb-t reception in a neighbour country has a much higher priority than a manufactorer like Panasonic who is not willing to follow the specs in EN300468.
I guess the blokes in NI with freeview equipment wouldn't be very amused if they get the ROI channels at top of their channel lists after a scan without the possibility of watching them.

SRB

That DID happen with the MPEG2 trial - a lot of juggling and swapping was going on in the UK DTT system which meant viewers had to rescan quite a few times in so many months and there were instances of RTE1 displacing BBC1 RTE2, BBC2 etc, etc around the border. One of my boxes now has RTE1 listed as 001 alongside BBC1 NI and BBC1 Wales, which also are 001 (Good ole Nokia, eh !). This kind of issue was one of the reasons why the signal was so heavily nulled in the MPEG2 trial as a large number of complaints, from the UK, could have resulted in it being turned off. It's perfectly possible that people scanning in the last few weeks have found the same thing happening again....

STB

maxg wrote: »

The target not to disturb dvb-t reception in a neighbour country has a much higher priority than a manufactorer like Panasonic who is not willing to follow the specs in EN300468.
I guess the blokes in NI with freeview equipment wouldn't be very amused if they get the ROI channels at top of their channel lists after a scan without the possibility of watching them.

No doubt its a fine balancing act. However RTE NL are charged with the responsibility of digital switch on for the whole country to the extent that ASO is a formality. This should be a smooth transition. Whilst I agree that it is the manufacturers responsibility to comply with certain specs most dont (hey most dont even comply with dvb ci open standards). Eitherway, that is irrelevant in a country that has being importing (and continues to) mpeg2 idtvs. The enabling of these legacy idtvs at a minimal cost to the consumer will be paramount in preference to whether or not we confuse people in cross border areas (which can be sorted out locally anyhow at the local tx sites!). The french have learnt this in their rollout to a population 12 times our size.

skycatcher

Why would RTE be so concerned about their digital transmissions "crossing" the border to NI? They dont seem to worry that the majority of NI population can get their analogue TX without a prob! Do they not like to tell their advertisers that they can reach another 1.5m people?

maxg

The problem is the uk freeview boxes are not mpeg4 compatible. If RTE choose service type 0x01 every bloke in NI with mpeg2 freeview equipment and additional reception of a ROI transmitter would get 4 dead channels at top of the channel list after a scan.

STB

maxg wrote: »

The problem is the uk freeview boxes are not mpeg4 compatible. If RTE choose service type 0x01 every bloke in NI with mpeg2 freeview equipment and additional reception of a ROI transmitter would get 4 dead channels at top of the channel list after a scan.

Are you telling me that the tuners in IDTVs have now been made redundant ?

First off, Freeview boxes are not our problem. DTT rollout is for the whole of the Republic of Ireland.

Secondly IDTVs can be enabled via Neotion Cams. So there is no need for a STB. Dont attempt to confuse. Everyone knows what technology we are using. Every bloke in NI will need an MPEG4 box regardless of what is broadcast in the TX stream. Infact left as at digital television service allows those in NI to use a transcode CAM also. There is no advantage in sending out a signal to the whole of Ireland for MPEG2 tuners to ignore the signal. There WILL be more casulaties of this including MPEG4 enabled TVs that varied slightly from the standard. That decision should be the consumers. Its not their fault that they have bought something that is not compatiable or is not fully opened.

Unnecessary expenditure and maximum usage is the call of the day. There is no need to lock down idtvs that can be enabled cheaply. The French saw this as a solution for its population of 61 million.

I think we will also benefit from it.

SRB

STB wrote: »

First off, Freeview boxes are not our problem. DTT rollout is for the whole of the Republic of Ireland.

Eh, taking that one step further, RTE could equally say TV's designed for the UK Freeview market aren't their problem either. MPEG 4 is the Irish standard. DTT is only now being rolled out in Ireland, anyone who bought a set before that, well, em, tough.

STB

The quantity of legacy Tv's on the market must also be taken into account. From day one, all unnecessary obstacles should be removed in my opinion. Disabling upgradable tuners at transmission source is prohibitive to DSO and a hinderence to ASO. If there are concerns for overflow areas these should be handled at those neighbouring local tx sites - not rolled out by default at the expense of the whole country. Moving to digital is a gradual process and initially the switch on should afford the Irish consumer every opportunity to do so.

There is a case to be made for changes to the service type in the future, not in the transitional period of digital switch on and analogue switch off. In the interim there are cheap solutions available for IDTVs other than a set top box. Yes MPEG4 is the standard, MPEG2 TVs can have their tuners enabled quite simply. That should be a consumer choice for legacies that exist. Going forward an awareness campaign will sort out future purchases.

watty

A setbox can be as cheap as a Neotion adaptor and is a much higher quality solution. The MPEG4 to MPEG2 re-encoder looking like a CAM is a kludge.

Compared with the actual number of TVs in use, the number of iDTVs without UPC/SKY setboxes bought with any intent of Digital Terrestiral reception is tiny.

STB

watty wrote: »

A setbox can be as cheap as a Neotion adaptor and is a much higher quality solution. The MPEG4 to MPEG2 re-encoder looking like a CAM is a kludge.

Compared with the actual number of TVs in use, the number of iDTVs without UPC/SKY setboxes bought with any intent of Digital Terrestiral reception is tiny.

Doesnt matter how many are/are not connected to a UPC Sky Box. You do not need to subscribe to cable or sat companies in order to receive PSB Channels. For a start ALL Tvs should be platform friendly in this day and age. The option to update a legacy idtv via the method widely used in France would give more options to the consumer. You cant just ignore solutions. Solutions must be inclusive for all elements of society. This is not a commercial service, its a PSB FTA service.

The STB will not be cheaper than the CAM. You can take that as a given, Watty. The French havent managed to do it and they have a massive population of consumers - €100 being the lowest unit price - not even taking into account that this doesnt include MHEG5, Nordig Ex req etc.

watty

The problem is the TV sellers.
Not RTENL.

People in NI should not be penalised because of ignorance on part of Irish resellers. They should even now insist by law that any non-MPEG4 100% compliant iDTV has a large sticker saying for "SetBox Use only, Not suitable for Irish Digital TV. Existing TV signal to be phased out over next 3 to 5 years".

cowengate

i just did a scan cha54 4tv 4radio and rtenl test,just sound nothing on rtenl, stops at cha 61 but picks up nothing

cnocbui

maxg wrote: »

The problem is the uk freeview boxes are not mpeg4 compatible. If RTE choose service type 0x01 every bloke in NI with mpeg2 freeview equipment and additional reception of a ROI transmitter would get 4 dead channels at top of the channel list after a scan.

And they could just as easily delete them.

Satfinder

RTE NL are clearly testing two scenarios:

the situation that applied prior to the recent change in channel numbering, whereby every DVB-T capable receiver will accept channel info, even though it might not be capable of decompressing it, and channels are assigned high numbers, presumably to hide them at the end of the channel list in NI (and Welsh?) receivers.

Advantages: Maximum possible number of receivers store channel details; anyone who is also receiving the freeview signals has a tidy channel list.

Disadvantages: MPEG-2 receivers tune the channel, but display a blank screen; Irish stations are way down the EPG on any sets receiving Freeview signals too; station numbers seem odd to the general public.

the current situation, where channel numbers (for TV channels) are low, and only compliant MPEG-4 receivers store channel details from the SDT.

Advantages: No whingeing to RTE NL from people with MPEG-2 receivers in the jurisdiction; no whingeing from people outside the jurisdiction with MPEG-2 receivers to BBC/Ofcom/RTE.

Disadvantages: Whingeing from a minority with non-compliant but MPEG-4 capable receivers who know what they are missing (count me in but I'd say we're a small group); some compliant receivers in border areas (or Wales on a hot day) pollute their channel lists with, say, two channel 001's.



At least two other scenarios are possible:

Lock out non-compliant receivers, as currently, but park the Irish stations at the end of the NI channel list.

A hybrid solution, where the Irish stations are numbered, say, from 800 onwards in border regions, and 001 onwards elsewhere. There'd be fewer grounds for flagging the "advanced codec" service in the "001" regions.

It seems to me that the third of the above four options annoys the fewest people, although one of the people it annoys is me.

[Actually, I'm not annoyed with RTE NL or even with Panasonic (although if anyone is to blame in my case it is their UK software team, for either an easy-to-miss bug or a deliberate lack of foresight). I'm just kicking myself for rescanning when I did. ]

If RTE NL stick with the current SDT format, I hope that when the system goes live, there'll be periodic "engineering tests" in the middle of the night when they'll revert to the first option - I'd happily set the alarm clock for 4am if it meant I could get past that dumb case statement in the PZ81 firmware. And I'd remember to say "no" if the set asked me should it do a rescan the next day!

There are other solutions, but they require either technical support from your iDTV vendor (not an option for those with Neotion CAMs - you put what in our TV?), or access to kit that costs at least as much as a plasma TV set (and way more than an STB).

So if anyone from RTE NL is reading, be a pal. Revert to the old SDT for one day only (on Three Rock and any other affected masts), so we can pull in the channel list on our dodgy tellies.

maxg

cnocbui wrote: »

And they could just as easily delete them.

It depends which freeview equipment they got. There were a lot of freeview boxes sold where you cannot change anything in the channel list.

maxg

@satfinder
Maybe its possible to poke in the channel list via the service menu and overwrite the radio channels with the parameters of the tv channels.

Satfinder

@maxg
I'm hoping the service menu lets you tweak such things but I don't think anyone knows (or at least is saying) what the magic sequence to access it on the PZ81 range is.
It's not a disaster for PZ81 owners assuming their primary motivation for buying the set was native access to Freesat, but I'd be cheesed off if I bought an MPEG-4 CAM, which serves no other purpose than to pull in DTT

cnocbui

maxg wrote: »

It depends which freeview equipment they got. There were a lot of freeview boxes sold where you cannot change anything in the channel list.

And the answer to that is 'tough'. The choice is a minor inconvenience to a handful of people who aren't paying the license fee; or depriving some of those who have paid the fee, that which they have paid for - vis-á-vis Panny owners.

STB

maxg wrote: »

It depends which freeview equipment they got. There were a lot of freeview boxes sold where you cannot change anything in the channel list.

So what.

It would seem that you some are more concerened with UK Freeview than Irish DTT.

bob11

Satfinder wrote: »

@maxg
I'm hoping the service menu lets you tweak such things but I don't think anyone knows (or at least is saying) what the magic sequence to access it on the PZ81 range is.

I found how to get in to the service menu on my TX-37LZX81 from here :

http://www.avforums.com/forums/lcd-televisions/757753-panasonic-32-37-lzd80-85-800-owners-settings-discussion-thread-56.html#post7600604

HOLD: (- V )tv and Press - 0-0-0-0-0-0 (remote control)

Not sure if you can tweak the scanning preferences... seems to be more related to the colour settings ...