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    #212
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    Yes i do and I find those that said equally that they dont believe in god but believe in a higher force weird equally I find it strange that a high proportion of people that "dont" believe in go find it easy to believe in gosts.

    Weird world....


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    #213
    Richard Cranium
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭Richard Cranium


    This might be slightly off topic, but from what I remember from Junior Cert religion, a fundamental part of Islam is that you must not force anyone (including yourself) to try to believe something you simply do not believe. There could be a specific arabic term for this, I can't remember.

    I interpreted this as what is traditionally viewed as one of the strictest world religions having an "I believe in a higher power, but not neccessarily what would otherwise be known as Allah" clause, and basically negating the need for religious hierarchies and propagation of out- dated interpretations of the Qur' an/ Bible/ Torah, whatever.

    Could it be that the whole idea of God as a single entity, so to speak, is completely wrong? I think so. Anything as inconceivable as an omnipotent force is just too vague to be pinned down with personification.

    A big strike against any form of belief would be an understandable answer to questions like "Why is there something instead of nothing?"
    Until then, religions will live on.


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    #214
    Teutorix
    Registered Users Posts: 1,674 ✭✭✭Teutorix


    Joey the lips wrote: »
    Yes i do and I find those that said equally that they dont believe in god but believe in a higher force weird equally I find it strange that a high proportion of people that "dont" believe in go find it easy to believe in gosts.

    Weird world....
    Thats actually 100% false. find some evidence for this please.

    The main reason most people are atheists is because they only believe in "P.E.A.R.L." (Perceivable Evidence and Reasonable Logic)


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    #215
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Teutorix wrote: »
    The main reason most people are atheists is because they only believe in "P.E.A.R.L." (Perceivable Evidence and Reasonable Logic)

    Leave Thunderf00t on youtube :D

    I could just leave TogetherForPeace's video responses to that video here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dQX5JaJ6Nk

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5PNT1WOFmU


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    #216
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,517 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Jakkass wrote: »
    There's nothing complex about it. I read the Bible, and I found that I was changed by it and I found that it made sense in reality. That's it.

    So where do your Christian Apologetics come into this?


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    #217
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    5uspect wrote: »
    So where do your Christian Apologetics come into this?

    I started reading them alongside the Bible.


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    #218
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Science doesn't rule out God having carried out anything. So just because something is studied in science, doesn't mean that it wasn't ultimately caused by God.
    Ok, but you posted a scientific study that pointed to an evolutionary trait predisposing people towards beliefs which increase their chances of survival. The study itself has nothing directly to do with God and doesn't conclude that people automatically have a predisposition to believing in "God" in the way you define it.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I tagged along to church nearly every Sunday. I didn't understand it much more than a typical "Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so" type understanding. Both would have had a faith of sorts. However, it wasn't really much of a discussion topic too often. When I was reading the Bible I'd ask questions about it, but that didn't happen until I was 17. I had tried to get through the Torah several times before this, but I gave up.



    You were predisposed to secularism, if I were to exaggerate it "indoctrination" :pac:.
    Yeah, forget "indoctrination". But you see my point? One's likelihood to believe is quite psychological and very much influenced by upbringing.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    How exactly did you investigate it? Nothing wrong with not saying prayers, it's quite honest of you infact.
    Read internet forums, parts of the bible, talked with friends.

    I don't know what it's like for someone raised in COI (which I believe you were), but you have to understand that for those of us raised to be Catholic, there's little, if any discussion of theology, bible study etc. Most wouldn't be aware of half the rules or implications of Catholicism/Christianity due to education alone. When one actually does some independent study of the religion having been raised like this, it provokes quite an understandable "what the fúck?" reaction, which results in abandonment quite soon after.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I don't think so though. The whys of life are crucially important. Religion for me is why I am the way I am, why other people are the way they are, and why the earth is the way it is. There are other means for dealing with the how, but I think any worldview is lacking if it doesn't consider the whys of life.
    Heh, linguistic determinism is quite interesting, but can be very headwrecking and hard to understand.

    I won't go into it in too much depth here, but to get a sense of where I'm coming from, consider the following:

    "why" is just a word in the English language.


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    #219
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,870 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    "why" is just a word in the English language.

    It is also (probably) second only to "God" in terms of words that have inspired debate, meditation and reflection for the last number of centuries.


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    #220
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Ok, but you posted a scientific study that pointed to an evolutionary trait predisposing people towards beliefs which increase their chances of survival. The study itself has nothing directly to do with God and doesn't conclude that people automatically have a predisposition to believing in "God" in the way you define it.

    Fair enough, I concede that point.
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Yeah, forget "indoctrination". But you see my point? One's likelihood to believe is quite psychological and very much influenced by upbringing.

    I do see your point. Ones likelihood to disbelieve is also influenced by upbringing, society, and other factors. Hurin in the Christianity forum argues that atheists are a product of their society. I'd agree with him. This is a rather different thing to indoctrination mind.
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Read internet forums, parts of the bible, talked with friends.

    Fair enough. Sounds reasonable. Although you would concede that your knowledge of Christianity isn't complete if you haven't read the entire Bible?
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    I don't know what it's like for someone raised in COI (which I believe you were), but you have to understand that for those of us raised to be Catholic, there's little, if any discussion of theology, bible study etc. Most wouldn't be aware of half the rules or implications of Catholicism/Christianity due to education alone. When one actually does some independent study of the religion having been raised like this, it provokes quite an understandable "what the fúck?" reaction, which results in abandonment quite soon after.

    There was an emphasis on Biblical stories, and parables. However, you wouldn't have gained a full insight into Christianity as a child. Actually, I would argue that you cannot gain a full insight into Christianity as a child. Indeed, when I read the Bible for myself, I found a lot of stuff you wouldn't notice from just going to church as a child, and from going to a church school.
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Heh, linguistic determinism is quite interesting, but can be very headwrecking and hard to understand.

    I won't go into it in too much depth here, but to get a sense of where I'm coming from, consider the following:

    "why" is just a word in the English language.

    It also describes a feeling of curiosity, and a desire to know the reason or the purpose of life and our existence.


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    #221
    Piste
    Registered Users Posts: 11,440 ✭✭✭✭Piste


    Jakkass wrote: »

    I don't think so though. The whys of life are crucially important. Religion for me is why I am the way I am, why other people are the way they are, and why the earth is the way it is. There are other means for dealing with the how, but I think any worldview is lacking if it doesn't consider the whys of life.

    I disagree, I think a worldview which first questions the existence of any whys (wondering if there are reasons and meanings for what happens in our lives rather than what the reasons and meanings are) to be much more worthwhile than one which presupposes any meaning. What we first have to ask ourselves is if we even need to ask "why"?


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    #222
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Piste wrote: »
    I disagree, I think a worldview which first questions the existence of any whys (wondering if there are reasons and meanings for what happens in our lives rather than what the reasons and meanings are) to be much more worthwhile than one which presupposes any meaning. What we first have to ask ourselves is if we even need to ask "why"?

    Of course it has to have substance behind it. I never claimed that we should just have a happy day assuming whys. That isn't what religion is about for me, it's about substantiating a hypothesis, and finding reasons for why things are the way they are. Of course if you are presupposing whys, we get nowhere. However if your worldview is deficient in answering questions concerning the whys of life, it isn't really a worldview at all.


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    #223
    Teutorix
    Registered Users Posts: 1,674 ✭✭✭Teutorix


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Of course it has to have substance behind it. I never claimed that we should just have a happy day assuming whys. That isn't what religion is about for me, it's about substantiating a hypothesis, and finding reasons for why things are the way they are. Of course if you are presupposing whys, we get nowhere. However if your worldview is deficient in answering questions concerning the whys of life, it isn't really a worldview at all.
    I think Piste was trying to get at the point that religions assume that there is a reason where there might not be.
    rather than assuming to know the answers to "why?" they begin by assuming that there is in fact a "why?" to begin with.

    It is kind of like me knocking something over and somebody assuming that I did it for a reason and asking "why?". When really I had no reason nor wish to knock it.
    The first question should have been "Did I do for a reason"

    I might have gotten that all wrong but that is how I read the post.


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    #224
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Teutorix wrote: »
    I think Piste was trying to get at the point that religions assume that there is a reason where there might not be.
    rather than assuming to know the answers to "why?" they begin by assuming that there is in fact a "why?" to begin with.

    That's also what I responded to. I don't think that Judaism / Christianity has assumed anything, or that they even think that they assumed everything. Remember that Christians and Jews believe in a system of prophets, who had received divine revelations from the Lord, Elohim Yisrael (God of Israel). I personally see a difference between claiming reasons based on assumptions, and claiming reasons on the basis of divine revelation.
    Teutorix wrote: »
    It is kind of like me knocking something over and somebody assuming that I did it for a reason and asking "why?". When really I had no reason nor wish to knock it.
    The first question should have been "Did I do for a reason"

    You weren't paying attention if you bumped into someone :p
    However that's an interesting point, do you think that creation and the sophistication of the natural world around us is comparable to an accident. I personally don't consider that to be like with like, or a reasonable analogy.
    Teutorix wrote: »
    I might have gotten that all wrong but that is how I read the post.

    You were on the same line of thought that I had been on previously :)


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    #225
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,870 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Teutorix wrote: »
    It is kind of like me knocking something over and somebody assuming that I did it for a reason and asking "why?". When really I had no reason nor wish to knock it.
    The first question should have been "Did I do for a reason"

    Freud would have said that there was a deliberate, unconscious reason for you carrying this action :)


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    #226
    Teutorix
    Registered Users Posts: 1,674 ✭✭✭Teutorix


    An File wrote: »
    Freud would have said that there was a deliberate, unconscious reason for you carrying this action :)
    Freud would also have said that it is because of my mother beating me as a child for knocking something over. and that the act of knocking the object was in defiance of her.

    He was a gobsh!te in many respects :P


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    #227
    bricky10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 117 ✭✭bricky10


    After reading some of these comments...
    I feel like I would be the only one out of this thread who goes to mass every sunday. I hate this kind of thing, is God real? Everyone is going to have different opinions on it. And what I really hate more is people who take the mick out of you for going to mass...and its very common in my school :(


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    #228
    Teutorix
    Registered Users Posts: 1,674 ✭✭✭Teutorix


    bricky10 wrote: »
    After reading some of these comments...
    I feel like I would be the only one out of this thread who goes to mass every sunday. I hate this kind of thing, is God real? Everyone is going to have different opinions on it. And what I really hate more is people who take the mick out of you for going to mass...and its very common in my school :(
    Seriously? I get picked on for being an atheist and not going to mass.

    I ask ya, picking on someone who doesnt go to mass? wouldn't beardface himself be so very proud.:rolleyes:


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    #229
    Richard Cranium
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭Richard Cranium


    bricky10 wrote: »
    After reading some of these comments...
    I feel like I would be the only one out of this thread who goes to mass every sunday. I hate this kind of thing, is God real? Everyone is going to have different opinions on it. And what I really hate more is people who take the mick out of you for going to mass...and its very common in my school :(


    I know what you mean. I only go to mass sporadically and I wouldn't call myself a devout Catholic, but I have found that there is very little tolerance for it. Even if someone mentions off- hand that they were at mass, it tends to spark off this sort of argument, only without much of an opposition (its not a debate, since everyone tends to gang up on the god- botherer and doesnt bother listening to any other point of view. The real world is often not as civilised as the interweb:pac:).

    The idea that people believe in God because they are just going with the flow is plain wrong, since as a young person in Ireland there is nearly peer pressure to be an atheist. The idea of an aquaintance going to mass is often treated with derision.

    I'm not speaking on the back of being offended recently btw, I have seen this happen to others, and by people who don't know anything about my beliefs or lack thereof.


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    #230
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    There seems to be a huge disparity in opinions on whether it's cool to be an Atheist or if most teenagers/people in their early 20s just go with the flow religionwise.

    Personally, IME there's nothing cool about being an atheist, the majority of my peers would still be half-assed Catholics, but it isn't uncool either, people just don't care.

    I'd imagine if you were the only religious person in a group of atheists, however, any mention of your faith could get confrontational. This would be a peer pressure situation, but I don't think it's the norm at all.

    I do dislike the attitude of being offended by anyone questioning one's religion, or not bothering to think properly about the whole thing.

    At the same time, I'm also starting to get quite tired of confrontational atheists who seem to think the all the world's problems are due to religion.


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    #231
    Richard Cranium
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭Richard Cranium


    Well yeah. I didn't mean to imply that I am offended by people questioning whatever I may believe. I agree with pretty much every single point you had to make there.


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    #232
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    bricky10 wrote: »
    After reading some of these comments...
    I feel like I would be the only one out of this thread who goes to mass every sunday. I hate this kind of thing, is God real? Everyone is going to have different opinions on it. And what I really hate more is people who take the mick out of you for going to mass...and its very common in my school :(

    Who cares? Jesus' opinion is going to be far far more important than what anyone else has to say. Keep strong. Every Christian will get criticised, you just need to prepare yourself to make a reasoned defence. Christian apologetics is the way to do this.

    I've seen a pretty strong Christian movement of youth in Ireland, so don't worry, there will be Christians in the next generation, and Christianity in Ireland will be healthy in the future.


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    #233
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    bricky10 wrote: »
    After reading some of these comments...
    I feel like I would be the only one out of this thread who goes to mass every sunday. I hate this kind of thing, is God real? Everyone is going to have different opinions on it. And what I really hate more is people who take the mick out of you for going to mass...and its very common in my school :(

    Your not the only one on this thread who goes to mass. As for questioning god. I agree I hate it also but thats a right people have and I have to say I am glad cause I know that I go to mass cause I want to, not cause I am made.

    People always take the mick about various things and this does not change weather your 15, 30 or 45 the only thing is when your 30 your mature enough to realise there opinion does not matter.


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    #234
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Joey the lips wrote: »
    As for questioning god. I agree I hate it also
    Why?


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    #235
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Why?


    Thank you for asking. i feel people should question everything but should not question another. Eg: Why do you buy coke instead of pepsi is curiosity about choice. Why do you shave your legs? Is none of your business.

    I find it amazing that 45% of the young generation do not believe in God but 65% believe in the presence of gosts and gouls of some sort. WTF?????

    If you were asked 20 years ago why you believe in god I think you would find it more difficult to explain where as now you choose religion by choice not by demand. So your choices should be respected not questioned.

    I have always been a god person I never question anybody about what they believe. I actually admire the other faiths cause they have faith. Its lack of faith I would worry about? but I dont question!

    So I would like to be left the same. You see!


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    #236
    Teutorix
    Registered Users Posts: 1,674 ✭✭✭Teutorix


    Joey the lips wrote: »
    Thank you for asking. i feel people should question everything but should not question another. Eg: Why do you buy coke instead of pepsi is curiosity about choice. Why do you shave your legs? Is none of your business.

    I find it amazing that 45% of the young generation do not believe in God but 65% believe in the presence of gosts and gouls of some sort. WTF?????

    If you were asked 20 years ago why you believe in god I think you would find it more difficult to explain where as now you choose religion by choice not by demand. So your choices should be respected not questioned.

    I have always been a god person I never question anybody about what they believe. I actually admire the other faiths cause they have faith. Its lack of faith I would worry about? but I dont question!

    So I would like to be left the same. You see!
    Just to point out JCs problem. you worded your first post quite wrong i think.

    You meant "You hate people questioning YOUR belief in god"

    Am i right?


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    #237
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Joey the lips wrote: »
    I have always been a god person I never question anybody about what they believe. I actually admire the other faiths cause they have faith. Its lack of faith I would worry about? but I dont question!

    So I would like to be left the same. You see!

    Thank God that you are a believer in Him. However, from a believer to another, I think that questioning is entirely healthy in the development of faith. Questioning, and dialogue with other people should encourage you to seek the answers, to read the Bible, to find out what you actually believe for yourself. I'm actually thankful for my encounters with atheists and I'm better off for them. I still believe that Jesus Christ is the truth, although I have found some questions challenging they have encouraged me to reason them out for myself. As such JC 2K3, JammyDodger, Wicknight, robindch and others I've had the ability to speak to on boards, are deserving of thanks.


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    #238
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    Teutorix wrote: »
    Just to point out JCs problem. you worded your first post quite wrong i think.

    You meant "You hate people questioning YOUR belief in god"

    Am i right?


    Yes, and taking the mick cause I go to mass like he does!


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    #239
    Teutorix
    Registered Users Posts: 1,674 ✭✭✭Teutorix


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Thank God that you are a believer in Him.
    Now there is one of my major problems.

    Religions assume to know god and near always classify it as "Him". Its not the sex issue I am annoyed about its the fact that people can have the nerve to talk as if god is a "person". If god is real and as mighty and powerful as you believe I think he would be offended at the fact that we see "him" as like ourselves and we think we are closer to "him" than any other piece of organic (and even inorganic) matter.


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    #240
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Teutorix wrote: »
    Religions assume to know god and near always classify it as "Him". Its not the sex issue I am annoyed about its the fact that people can have the nerve to talk as if god is a "person". If god is real and as mighty and powerful as you believe I think he would be offended at the fact that we see "him" as like ourselves and we think we are closer to "him" than any other piece of organic (and even inorganic) matter.

    We don't assume. We believe that God is a person, due to divine revelation and encounters that were received from people from Moses to John. If we hadn't received this divine revelation we would be a lot more in the dark about God than we are now. It's not as if it is baseless, rather God has revealed Himself to people, and will continue to do so until the end of time in different ways. If we didn't have the Biblical text and the experiences of others to base our understanding of God on, you'd be right there would be no means of checking for consistency.

    I don't think God would be offended that we refer to Him as a being, because He had indeed revealed that He had made mankind in His likeness (Genesis 1:26-27). Although, God does reveal to Moses, "I am that I am" in Exodus 3. Meaning that we should be careful in imposing human understandings on him.

    I explained a page or two ago that the "Him" is based on how humans understand God. Most of the prophets and Biblical figures, as well as modern day Christians relate to God as a father figure.


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    #241
    Stev_o
    Registered Users Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭Stev_o


    Teutorix wrote: »
    Now there is one of my major problems.

    Religions assume to know god and near always classify it as "Him". Its not the sex issue I am annoyed about its the fact that people can have the nerve to talk as if god is a "person". If god is real and as mighty and powerful as you believe I think he would be offended at the fact that we see "him" as like ourselves and we think we are closer to "him" than any other piece of organic (and even inorganic) matter.

    Calling things "it" is a insulting term so i very much doubt it would be used to describe God. The word "Lord" is a masculine word hence the use of "him" instead of saying Lord over and over and over and over again.


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