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god?

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  • #122
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,062 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    So it's something to do with experiences then...? What kind of experiences?
    In my opinion, the "experiences" in question are ones of intense personal meaning, and can vary hugely from person to person. As I tried to out-line earlier, these could include the religious (feeling close to God in mass/prayer/thoughts/actions), the meditative (seeking connection to a higher power/higher level of being through traditionally Eastern practices) or the less widely recognised dimensions from experiences of hobbies (surfing was the one mentioned earlier, I can add writing poetry and cycling to that list too).

    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    But surely the idea of a Christian retreat is to foster a greater sense of belief in the attendees? I just find the idea of a non-Christian leader at a Christian retreat a bit silly.....

    Have you considered that there could be more than just one purpose to a retreat? The one I helped to organise was first and foremost about personal and interpersonal development, with religion and awareness of God being only the third element of the weekend. Yes, it was first established by the Christian Brothers for young male Catholics, and quite shortly afterwards was adapted for the Presentation Sisters girls' schools.

    However, its point is not proseletism. It was recognised in America, about 20 years ago, that there was a worrying trend of increased levels of suicidal behaviour among young men, and that some action had to be taken. Retreat programmes were seen as ideal opportunities for young people to voice their concerns, talk about the things that were bothering them, and listen to the problems of their peers. The talking and listening, and essentially sharing of worries, can be enormously therapeutic. It won't solve your problems immediately but it can give you a great understanding of what other young people are going through.
    As a leader I had to help portray the positive effects of knowing one's own mind and emotions, knowing how to relate these to the people around you, knowing when to share and when to let somebody else share, and then offering my friends the comfort of their faith(s). I tried to show them that while God was not present in my life, I was still comforted by my belief in myself as a person. I acknowledge that such a belief would not suit everyone. Nearly everybody else there was Christian (I know that one of the guys was agnostic, and that one of the others was raised in the Buddhist tradition, but the majority were Catholic) and this majority were encouraged to welcome God into their lives more often. Nobody was put under any pressure to do anything with which they were not comfortable.


  • #123
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Fair enough. My retreat experiences were always primarily just a day of indoctrination and/or preaching of "Just say No" to drugs/alcohol and sex. We had to attend one once a year in secondary school. The most disturbing ones were in 5th and 6th year, and run by an international (mainly American) group called NET, National Evangelism Team. It was a day of carefully calculated events focused around playing to herd mentality and restriction of questioning, despite giving the illusion that they were open to being asked anything. We were told things like homosexuality was wrong and the importance of sexual "purity" was stressed. One of the leaders explained this by saying, "Sure you wouldn't want to be with a girl who'd slept with a load of other guys". The really frightening thing was that I was only in the minority that saw through the bullshít.

    Since those hardcore indoctrination fests, I've thought back about the other retreats I attended, which were all run by different groups. And although less hardcore, I now recognise that there was always an agenda of indoctrination behind them. It was always all about religion. The day would always start with some games and worthwhile exercises in positive thinking, but it would always descend into prayers, worship and preaching Christianity.

    I can see how a retreat might be a good idea if no religion was involved. But I can't see how a Christian retreat could be worthwhile to anyone who wasn't a Christian, nor do I have much faith in them being much more than indoctrination with the experience of them that I have....

    Oh and re: "Spirituality", I think the word should be scrapped, and actual explanations of what people mean when they say something like "I'm a spiritual person" be used in its place. It's just too ambiguous and thus confusing and annoying.


  • #124
    Shacklebolt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,418 ✭✭✭Shacklebolt


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Fair enough. My retreat experiences were always primarily just a day of indoctrination and/or preaching of "Just say No" to drugs/alcohol and sex. We had to attend one once a year in secondary school. The most disturbing ones were in 5th and 6th year, and run by an international (mainly American) group called NET, National Evangelism Team. It was a day of carefully calculated events focused around playing to herd mentality and restriction of questioning, despite giving the illusion that they were open to being asked anything. We were told things like homosexuality was wrong and the importance of sexual "purity" was stressed. One of the leaders explained this by saying, "Sure you wouldn't want to be with a girl who'd slept with a load of other guys". The really frightening thing was that I was only in the minority that saw through the bullshít.

    I can never understand why certain religous people feel the need to interfere in others own private sex lives-how exactly does it effect them? How dare they claim to have some divine understanding of how why should live our lives? Who the **** do they think they are?


  • #125
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I disagree that they do wish to interfere with ones sex lives. People want you to see what Jesus has to offer you in your lives and to stand up for Him instead of the often cruel, and horrible path that humanity leads. A rather noble goal if you ask me, but I think there are several other ways that different people can approach it.


  • #126
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    In fairness, it was a Catholic school and the idea was for it to be a Christian retreat with emphasis on God. Thing is, besides that, there was very little indoctrination going on in the school, and the majority of people simply described themselves as Catholic, as opposed to practicing it, which is generally an Irish thing. In other countries, such as the states, if you got to a Catholic school and say you believe, then you actually do believe and act like a Christian. So essentially you had a hardcore international Christian group assuming some level of belief, whereas most people wouldn't have even been to Mass in years if they even still described themselves as Christian. To that end, it was quite an interesting dynamic, even if I found the whole thing a bit sickening.


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  • #127
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I find it oddly confusing that atheists / agnostics complain about evangelism when often they are just about as evangelistic about their own views themselves. Personally I consider it all fair and good. Isn't it entirely voluntary to go to these retreats? Far from indoctrination I think. I don't find atheists speaking about atheism to be "sickening", nor do I find people of other faiths speaking about their respective beliefs to be "sickening" or an act of indoctrination.


  • #128
    Fad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,231 ✭✭✭Fad


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I find it oddly confusing that atheists / agnostics complain about evangelism when often they are just about as evangelistic about their own views themselves. Personally I consider it all fair and good. Isn't it entirely voluntary to go to these retreats? Far from indoctrination I think. I don't find atheists speaking about atheism to be "sickening", nor do I find people of other faiths speaking about their respective beliefs to be "sickening" or an act of indoctrination.

    But thats just some atheists, thats the same as saying you as a Christian, are exactly the same as Fred Phelps, he is also a Christian. Not all atheists are evangelistic in any way, I'm not.

    Also Retreats in secondary school really arent optional, and opting out of one would more than likely lead to trouble.


  • #129
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Fad wrote: »
    Also Retreats in secondary school really arent optional, and opting out of one would more than likely lead to trouble.
    Pretty much. You could just not show up, but you'd be marked absent, and it'd be seen in the same light as you skipping school. Although personally, I went for the sake of curiousity.

    And Jakkass, it was the carefully calculated way they went about it that I had a problem with (you had to be there really). And I reserve the right to be sickened by things like anti-homosexuality and the implication that girls are somehow lesser beings if they have sex outside of marriage.

    I don't understand when you say you don't find certain other beliefs sickening

    Also, when not online, you'll find very few evangelical atheists. And arguing about religion online isn't evangelism, it's something to do in one's spare time.


  • #130
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Fad wrote: »
    But thats just some atheists, thats the same as saying you as a Christian, are exactly the same as Fred Phelps, he is also a Christian.

    Also Retreats in secondary school really arent optional, and opting out of one would more than likely lead to trouble.

    That's true, I do consider his ministry to be blasphemous but asides from that he does identify with Christianity.

    Retreats in secondary schools aren't optional? I never attend RC schools, however there was events that were organised by the Church of Ireland Diocean Youth Ministry and that were on an opt in basis for us. I didn't go on any of these but a few people did.

    I'd consider it more important for people to be sincere if they are going to any faith based event.
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Pretty much. You could just not show up, but you'd be marked absent, and it'd be seen in the same light as you skipping school. Although personally, I went for the sake of curiousity.

    I personally find that a terrible idea even from a faith based perspective.
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    And Jakkass, it was the carefully calculated way they went about it that I had a problem with (you had to be there really). And I reserve the right to be sickened by things like anti-homosexuality and the implication that girls are somehow lesser beings if they have sex outside of marriage.

    See this isn't even the Christian view. God loves everyone. He made all people in His image in Christianity.
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    I don't understand when you say you don't find certain other beliefs sickening

    By that I mean even as a Christian I do not find Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism amongst others to be sickening. I just think that Jesus is the only way. I don't think it's useful to tell other people that they are somehow sick for what they subscribe to, and it's probably unhelpful too if you want them to become somewhat more moderate.
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Also, when not online, you'll find very few evangelical atheists. And arguing about religion online isn't evangelism, it's something to do in one's spare time.

    I hear people at my university doing this on a regular basis.


  • #131
    Jesus Juice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,111 ✭✭✭Jesus Juice


    Ok Im bumping this thread to say that my last one was a drunk post,I had came home after being out and read a lot of The Blind Watchmaker by Dawkins and felt like I needed to share this knowledge in a discussion with the world!:o


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  • #132
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Just wondering how would a "higher force" differ to God? I've yet to understand the reason for the difference in the poll.


  • #133
    Professey Chin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,054 ✭✭✭✭Professey Chin


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Just wondering how would a "higher force" differ to God? I've yet to understand the reason for the difference in the poll.
    Simple really. God is the creator of everything but the higher force of everything is Chuck Norris


  • #134
    Jesus Juice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,111 ✭✭✭Jesus Juice


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Just wondering how would a "higher force" differ to God? I've yet to understand the reason for the difference in the poll.
    Have you ever asked someone ''Do you believe in God?'' and they so ''no but I believe in something,there has to be something after we die'',I think its that.
    Or else they're just hippies!:pac:


  • #135
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Jesus Juice wrote: »
    Have you ever asked someone ''Do you believe in God?'' and they so ''no but I believe in something,there has to be something after we die'',I think its that.
    Or else they're just hippies!:pac:

    So? By this "higher force" people are referring to something they don't have any idea about?


  • #136
    challengemaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,925 ✭✭✭✭challengemaster


    Jakkass wrote: »
    So? By this "higher force" people are referring to something they don't have any idea about?

    Sounds just like 'god' to me....:p


  • #137
    Jesus Juice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,111 ✭✭✭Jesus Juice


    Jakkass wrote: »
    So? By this "higher power" people are referring to something they don't have any idea about?
    Well I don't know do?I don't believe in either anyway so...


  • #138
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    challengemaster wrote: »
    Sounds just like 'god' to me....:p

    We have quite a large set of material to inform us of the being and character of the God of Israel so meh.


  • #139
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,062 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    I think the difference is in people's manifestations of what God/the higher power is.
    Most people think of God as the wise, old figure with robes and a beard (Michelangelo).
    I used to imagine the "higher power" as some great presence of electricity, invisible like potential energy or exploding into colour like the Orion nebula.

    It's all down to interpretation really, and whether or not you believe human beings were "created in the image of god".


  • #140
    Professey Chin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,054 ✭✭✭✭Professey Chin


    An File wrote: »
    I think the difference is in people's manifestations of what God/the higher power is.
    Most people think of God as the wise, old figure with robes and a beard (Michelangelo).
    I used to imagine the "higher power" as some great presence of electricity, invisible like potential energy or exploding into colour like the Orion nebula.

    It's all down to interpretation really, and whether or not you believe human beings were "created in the image of god".
    And I think of this happy fella
    316_deity.gif


  • #141
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    An File wrote: »
    Most people think of God as the wise, old figure with robes and a beard (Michelangelo).

    I don't think its common for Christians to think of God as having a physical body but rather that God is a spirit nature. Infact the use of "He" to describe God, isn't to refer to Him as actually being male, it merely means that the Israelites who wrote in the Bible had an understanding of God as a Father like figure. I don't even think that Michelangelo probably intended this, but rather it was to be a metaphor for God's perception as a Father figure.


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  • #142
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    "Higher power" is just meaningless rhetoric.

    Then again, any description I've ever read of God has just been meaningless rhetoric also (see Jakkass's description above of God as a "spirit nature" as an example).


  • #143
    joe freethinker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34 ✭joe freethinker


    atheists hold the majority. SICK GOOD!:D


  • #144
    Jesus Juice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,111 ✭✭✭Jesus Juice


    joe freethinker wrote: »
    atheists hold the majority. SICK GOOD!:D

    Sick good...very Tipperary saying!!:D


  • #145
    alegrabaroque
    Closed Accounts Posts: 77 ✭✭alegrabaroque


    I`m gobsmacked the majority don`t even believe in something?! shocked! maybe its just boardies? Maybe boardies are more educated? Or liars? Maybe its fashionable if your educated to say you don`t believe in anything that can`t be porved?...shocked and horrified! maybe thats why theres a recession....


  • #146
    Jesus Juice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,111 ✭✭✭Jesus Juice


    alegrabaroque wrote: »
    I`m gobsmacked the majority don`t even believe in something?! shocked! maybe its just boardies? Maybe boardies are more educated? Or liars? Maybe its fashionable if your educated to say you don`t believe in anything that can`t be porved?...shocked and horrified! maybe thats why theres a recession....
    WTF are you rambling about?:confused:
    Please make sense if you trying to make a point even if it is invalid!:rolleyes:


  • #147
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    alegrabaroque wrote: »
    I`m gobsmacked the majority don`t even believe in something?! shocked! maybe its just boardies? Maybe boardies are more educated? Or liars? Maybe its fashionable if your educated to say you don`t believe in anything that can`t be porved?...shocked and horrified! maybe thats why theres a recession....
    But why would you believe in something that can't be proven? It's not fashionable, just common sense....


  • #148
    eVeNtInE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭eVeNtInE


    This post has been deleted.


  • #149
    Professey Chin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,054 ✭✭✭✭Professey Chin


    alegrabaroque wrote: »
    I`m gobsmacked the majority don`t even believe in something?! shocked! maybe its just boardies? Maybe boardies are more educated? Or liars? Maybe its fashionable if your educated to say you don`t believe in anything that can`t be porved?...shocked and horrified! maybe thats why theres a recession....
    I believe in buddah and spongebob


  • #150
    KnifeWRENCH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,148 ✭✭✭✭KnifeWRENCH


    eVeNtInE wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Because the higher force is angry with all ye heathens and sent this recession to punish you, of course. There's even a passage in a holy text about it*

    "Oh yay, and I shalt send unto Earth an economic crisis and may all who don't believe find themselves in financial peril. Those who do believe worry not, for ye will be rewarded....sometime.
    The people heard. And there was much rejoicing."

    *may not be factually accurate


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  • #151
    Professey Chin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,054 ✭✭✭✭Professey Chin


    square_igloo wrote: »
    Because the higher force is angry with all ye heathens and sent this recession to punish you, of course. There's even a passage in a holy text about it*
    Who sent this text and what was his network?


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