Is 1500 enough for engagement ring

herya · 03-04-2009 01:17PM

Oh and diamonds on wedding rings thing, I think it's relatively new? My friends got married last year and the jewellers were absolutely pushing them to get a small diamond on each of their rings "at least for you if not for him". They didn't get them BTW.

antiskeptic · 03-04-2009 01:20PM

herya wrote: »

BTW there is still huge and largely untouched "diamond gifts for men" market :cool:

Off course!! Now that the axis of economics has shifted and women have become mass-earners...

And you're starting with a customer base who are convinced of the worth of a diamond as an expression of love!!

rdb666 · 03-04-2009 01:24PM

I popped the question to my GF in New York in december, did my homework a few months before we went over, Found a guy called Peter Germano, and when I gave him my budget ($2000), about €1400 at the time, he was able to give me different choices I had. When we arrived over there, I made some excuses and went to visit him and he spent over an hour explaining and showing me different diamonds and settings. I agreed on one and he had it ready for me the next day, with the certificates and everything, proposed and she absolutely loved the ring! Oh and said yes.

But heres the good thing, we got the ring valued when we came back here and were told that it is worth just over €4000!! So well worth checking around and getting the most for your cash.

Theres a good website called www.bluenile.com which gives great info and u can buy online at good savings and they are pretty secure.

NOGMaxpower · 03-04-2009 01:30PM

1500 is grand if thats your budget..

go to this place... jogia diamonds: http://www.jogiadiamonds.com.au/

they're in Australia, but with the exchange rate and dif levels in VAT etc you can save a bomb and get x2 times the quality ring. Its all online and he sorts out the tax receipts etc for you. Its 100% above board so dont feel dodgy about sepending so much online. I was and he put me at ease...

I spent 4k on a ring cost hats what i had saved up. Basically the same stone, carat cut clarity etc would cost 11k here in dublin (had it valued)

Basically all diamonds come from the same place and they're all certified by the same people. ITs about shopping around DO NOT BUY IN IRELAND ITS A WASTE OF YOUR HARD EARNED MONEY

antiskeptic · 03-04-2009 01:31PM

herya wrote: »

Oh and diamonds on wedding rings thing, I think it's relatively new? My friends got married last year and the jewellers were absolutely pushing them to get a small diamond on each of their rings "at least for you if not for him". They didn't get them BTW.

Indeed.

Have you ever tried to sell a diamond wrote:

..the advertising agency argued that "it is essential that these pressures be met by the constant publicity to show that only the diamond is everywhere accepted and recognized as the symbol of betrothal."

You can see how it works; the notion of a diamond as a love symbol is already there. By pushing them into wedding rings at every turn the market will gradually come to see diamonds as essential in wedding rings. There'll be stars and celebs showing off their diamond encrusted wedding bands - if it isn't happening already.

keyes · 03-04-2009 01:32PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

The notion that they have intrinsic worth is the result of a highly successful myth propagated by the cartel which controls the worlds diamond business (De Beers) which is aimed at convincing the public that this is the case. In fact diamonds are so plentiful that their real worth is nominal - but try telling that to someone who's fallen for the myth..

Google "have you ever tried to sell a diamond" and read what is in reality, a fascinating story...

correct me if i'm wrong, but that article is older than me. it's marked february 1982.

you're totally out of touch with the reality. de beers now only controls something like 40% of the world's diamond production. it's far from being a cartel.

US antitrust regulations in the 1990s forced them to break the company up, and it got split up into a few different entities. far from being the sole supplier, they now aim to be "supplier of choice".

herya · 03-04-2009 01:52PM

Indeed, but I believe the point was more to make us aware of the hugely successful marketing ploy aimed at establishing diamonds as symbols of love and marriage.

Emerald Lass · 03-04-2009 02:15PM

rdb666 wrote: »

But heres the good thing, we got the ring valued when we came back here and were told that it is worth just over €4000!! So well worth checking around and getting the most for your cash.

NOGMaxpower wrote: »

I spent 4k on a ring cost hats what i had saved up. Basically the same stone, carat cut clarity etc would cost 11k here in dublin (had it valued)

Basically all diamonds come from the same place and they're all certified by the same people. ITs about shopping around DO NOT BUY IN IRELAND ITS A WASTE OF YOUR HARD EARNED MONEY

Just on this 'valuing' thing - I agree you will possibly pay more for a ring here than in some places, but when you get it 'valued' do not be under the impression that this is what it is worth. The 'value' is the cost of what it would cost to replace it from a retailler. in other words its good for your insurance, but not a true indication of what your ring would fetch if you were to sell it.

And also the certification thing is also a bit misleading. Just cos a diamond has a certificate doesn't make it a better diamond than another. Certificates are not as important as people think - I would of course always recommend getting your cert, but it is no guarantee that you paid a fair price etc. It just certifies that it is a diamond, and is open to interpretation - one certifier may class a diamond differently than another - its not black and white.

And as to the don't buy in Ireland thing - I understand your point, cos things can be more expensive, but its not always that simple. If buying abroad saves you €1k or €2k then fair enough, but if you only save €500 after flights/import duty etc, then it might not be worth it. If you buy here you have the knowledge of being able to return to where you bought in the case of a problem. Also, a lot of people buy abroad, and come back home ot get it resized. Not all rings can be resized, and to resize others can take a lot of skill and can be expensive if the stones need resetting. so the money you thought you had saved may be spent elsewhere. Abroad is only a good option if you are saving A LOT.

I bought abroad because that is where I was living. My cert and valuation was in a diff language so I got it valued here. Was valued at 3 times what I paid for it. Then again, a mate bought a ring abroad, paid the equiv of €500 for it, came home, got it valued at €1000-€1200, but it needed to be resized - which actually could not be done on that style of ring. so they ended up spending €500 uselessly - they tried to sell the ring, got €700 for it. Add in the cost of their flights, and they actually saved nothing.

antiskeptic · 03-04-2009 04:46PM

keyes wrote: »

you're totally out of touch with the reality. de beers now only controls something like 40% of the world's diamond production. it's far from being a cartel.

According to who? The ebook (from which the article is taken) details multi-decade long machinations aimed at circumventing the trials and tribulations which would threaten the core rationale behind the diamond business:

Diamonds are plentiful - supply must be controlled and the impression of scarcity must be maintained - in order to maintain prices at artificially high levels

What reason is there to suppose anything has changed - given that a key feature of an active diamond cartel would be folk continuing to pay astronomical amounts of money for something which is intrinsically worth-less. Which is precisely what folk are doing.

I'll grant that if anything has changed to affect De Beers dominance it's other people joining De Beers in playing the same game. Jumping onto the model created by De Beers.

This..

US antitrust regulations in the 1990s forced them to break the company up, and it got split up into a few different entities

..appears problematic. De Beers is a global operator based in South Africa and diamond mines are situated all over the world. How does the US break up a non-US globally active cartel whose raw material isn't in the US?

My impression from the ebook was that thwarting De Beers would be like trying to herd kittens. They've spent 80 years up to the time of the article rolling with all kinds of punchs. There is no reason to bet against them continuing to do so.

keyes · 03-04-2009 05:39PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

De Beers is a global operator based in South Africa and diamond mines are situated all over the world. How does the US break up a non-US globally active cartel whose raw material isn't in the US?

My impression from the ebook was that thwarting De Beers would be like trying to herd kittens. They've spent 80 years up to the time of the article rolling with all kinds of punchs. There is no reason to bet against them continuing to do so.

because de beers own very few mines nowadays. most of the worlds production comes from australia by weight, or botswana by value. a big percentage comes from canada.

these mines are not de beers owned or controlled, and the diamonds sold on the open market.

the de beers model changed in the 1990s from a business model of horizontal control of the market to a vertical business model. this makes all your arguements redundant.

also, diamonds are not plentiful. certainly not gem-quality diamonds. industrial ones are fairly plentiful.

a key ingredient for a cartel would be a captive audience, which is not the case when it is easy to buy from several suppliers, as is possible today. (i agree, it was not possible 50 years ago).

i think the problem is that you have formed certain "impressions" from reading from one source, and are extrapolating conclusions from that. it's just ridiculous to be working from source material that's as old as that.

anyway, that's about all i have to saw on this matter, you really aren't armed with the full facts, and are relying on stuff you heard from somewhere. i won't be posting any more replies to this thread.

aviendha · 03-04-2009 10:56PM

agree with Keyes on the fact that diamonds are not plentiful.
yes there are plenty of diamonds in the ground, but diamonds are difficult and costly to mine, and a lot of companies get higher returns on copper etc.. therefore are just shutting down the diamond mines due to cost/benefit...

no, I don't buy the whole "diamond tradition" however I don't buy the conspiracy theories around De Beers anymore either... the Russians have a huge hold on the market also..

anyway, my 0.02

antiskeptic · 04-04-2009 01:09AM

keyes wrote: »

because de beers own very few mines nowadays. most of the worlds production comes from australia by weight, or botswana by value. a big percentage comes from canada.

That doesn't answer the question asked. The question asked was how the De Beers cartel - one which has a history of dealing with diamond discoveries in far away countries - was dismantled by US antitrust action?

these mines are not de beers owned or controlled, and the diamonds sold on the open market.

The "old article" referred to earlier detailed how De Beers successfully approached diamond mines in Russia which weren't owned or controlled by De Beers.

the de beers model changed in the 1990s from a business model of horizontal control of the market to a vertical business model. this makes all your arguements redundant.

also, diamonds are not plentiful. certainly not gem-quality diamonds. industrial ones are fairly plentiful.

The business model employed by De Beers for many year relied on soaking up excess production by stockpiling. They nearly collapsed on discovery of Russian diamonds by the flood - diverting the problem into the Eternity Ring market created for precisely that purpose. Since then (according to yourself) numerous other sources of diamonds have been discovered.

Yet diamonds aren't plentiful?

a key ingredient for a cartel would be a captive audience, which is not the case when it is easy to buy from several suppliers, as is possible today. (i agree, it was not possible 50 years ago).

Have a read of the far more recent article linked which is clearly investigative in nature. There isn't much of a mention of anyone but De Beers in the opposition corner. Why is that do you think? Do you know something that this investigative journalist doesn't?

De Beers vs. Synthetic diamonds

i think the problem is that you have formed certain "impressions" from reading from one source, and are extrapolating conclusions from that. it's just ridiculous to be working from source material that's as old as that.

anyway, that's about all i have to saw on this matter, you really aren't armed with the full facts, and are relying on stuff you heard from somewhere. i won't be posting any more replies to this thread.

Pity. I was hoping you'd answer the question as to why it was that diamonds are still horrendously expensive - given that there have been (you say) so many new entrants into the market such that De Beers share has slipped from 100% to (you say) 40%.

x in the city · 04-04-2009 01:10AM

memaul wrote: »

Hey there,

Going to be popping the question in a few months time and i'm wondering will i be able to get a nice ring for around the 1500-2000 price range. Any help greatly appreciated.

Its not about the monies, its about the love

antiskeptic · 04-04-2009 01:20AM

aviendha wrote: »

agree with Keyes on the fact that diamonds are not plentiful. yes there are plenty of diamonds in the ground, but diamonds are difficult and costly to mine, and a lot of companies get higher returns on copper etc.. therefore are just shutting down the diamond mines due to cost/benefit...

Diamonds frequently aren't anymore difficult to mine than coal. Very often they are very easy to mine - in the sense that you can excavate them from the surface downwards in open pit mines: thus no tunnels and the like required. The article from which cartelism issue was extracted happens to contain a fascinating insight into the whole business - extraction processes and all. One of the larger discoveries involved holding back the tide and picking them up off the ground.

http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/diamond/prologue.htm

sceptre · 04-04-2009 01:28AM

paper cut wrote: »

I've been told (by gf) thats it's normal to pay 3 months salary for a ring....... which works out at approx e9000 for me. Am i mad paying this?

Yes. Yes you are. Mad or in a completely non-insulting way, stupid if you do.

It used to be a month as the base guideline for dumb males (that's all of us really) who didn't know what was "acceptable". Then De Beers told us it was two months. Now your girlfriend wants to start a new trend of three? I suspect the next number will be four so perhaps you should get in there while you can.

Toots · 04-04-2009 01:43AM

I heard that the whole 'months wages' thing was originally used as a benchmark (in times of yore) so that if the hubby ran off on the wife and the wee 'uns in later years, the wife could sell the ring and have money to support herself. Not sure how true it is, but the same logic certainly couldn't be applied today, as I'm sure anyone who's ever tried to sell a second engagement ring will testify.

DublinWriter · 04-04-2009 01:59AM

paper cut wrote: »

I've been told (by gf) thats it's normal to pay 3 months salary for a ring....... which works out at approx e9000 for me. Am i mad paying this?

You'd be in...feckin'...sane dude.

We managed to get a solitare 1ct with great clarity in a six-claw mounting in 18ct Gold from Earnest Jones for a fraction of that.

Personally, I found that the small independant jewellers aren't doing you any favours. The bigger UK multiples buy in bulk and generally don't seem to sell gold at spot FX prices.

De_man · 04-04-2009 02:39PM

rdb666 wrote: »

Theres a good website called www.bluenile.com which gives great info and u can buy online at good savings and they are pretty secure.

i agree bluenile is a great site, when i was looking for "the ring" i used
them to give me an idea of what to expect price wise...for me antwerp is the way to go or if on a budget those jewellary channels offer some good diamonds.
don't throw away your hard earned cash here!!

but for those thinking of purchasing be extremely careful! Bluenile is a US site, legally you must pay duty on the importation of your ring, be careful
you can be "caught out" years later and still get stung for the duty due.
(everytime you pass through customs at the airport - it's not worth it)

taram · 04-04-2009 07:06PM

De_man wrote: »

but for those thinking of purchasing be extremely careful! Bluenile is a US site, legally you must pay duty on the importation of your ring, be careful
you can be "caught out" years later and still get stung for the duty due.
(everytime you pass through customs at the airport - it's not worth it)

You can buy it on the .co.uk site instead, have to pay the difference between our VAT and the UK's but still better value than buying here.

I went into two different local jewelers to buy a ring for my graduation, stated that I wanted a gemstone, but didn't want a diamond, they showed me diamonds anyway. :P Can't imagine what'll happen when I want to buy my engagment ring!

De_man · 05-04-2009 09:30PM

taram wrote: »

You can buy it on the .co.uk site instead, have to pay the difference between our VAT and the UK's but still better value than buying here.

thanks very much for that info, in the end i went to antwerp and got a
very good deal & vv good weekend out of it:D

Emerald Lass · 05-04-2009 11:19PM

DublinWriter wrote: »

Personally, I found that the small independant jewellers aren't doing you any favours. The bigger UK multiples buy in bulk and generally don't seem to sell gold at spot FX prices.

to be fair that is not the case with all independent jewellers, and as I said in an earlier post I can recommend a good jeweller who charges fair prices and knows his stuff. Staff in a lot of the large stores are just sales staff, and have little real knowledge of stones and jewellery. So if you ARE going to spend money it might be better to do it with someone who knows what they are talking about - of course do your research and know what is a fair price for what you want before you go in. But just because it is an independent jeweller does not mean that they are all over charging.

I have been told by two diff people that these large UK multiples who buy in bulk as you say are not necessarily doing you any favours - they price on size and popularity. A friend bought a ring second hand, orig it was bought from Earnest Jones. Seller supplied the receipt and box and insurance valuation etc. She bought it at a good price it seemed compared to the receipt price of €3,000. When she got it valued for insurance purposes by a good jeweller, she was told that even as brand new (i.e not a resale) or to replace it, based on the quality of the stones it was worth about €1,500 - €2,000. He said he could make it for about €1.5k or order it in from a supplier for around €2k. she looked into it and the ring is apparently one of the best sellers in Earnest Jones so that seems to be the only explanation of why the original price was so high. Its a big stone, and quite flashy, but it appears that the quality of the stone isn't great. she didn't mind as she still paid less than the valuation, but the original buyer paid a lot for a lower quality stone. Perhaps in an independent jeweller they may have spoken to someone with more experience.

anyway, as someone else pointed out, its not the gold prices that vary so much, it is the stones. so setting gold prices on FX prices makes little difference to how much they sell their stones for.

Regardless of where you buy, I think the important lesson is to research before hand and compare prices. A good jeweller will happily explain things to you, give you details and let you go off and think about it. Its a big investment (emotionally and financially!) so do your homework first and buy from a reputable seller. And then after that, just keep your fingers crossed that you picked the right ring and she says yes!

memaul · 07-04-2009 04:13PM

thanks for all ye're help. i'm close to making my purchase. have been on the bluenile website and been talking to them on the phone and have found them very good. very helpful

antiskeptic · 08-04-2009 11:49PM

Emerald Lass wrote: »

to be fair that is not the case with all independent jewellers, and as I said in an earlier post I can recommend a good jeweller who charges fair prices and knows his stuff. Staff in a lot of the large stores are just sales staff, and have little real knowledge of stones and jewellery. So if you ARE going to spend money it might be better to do it with someone who knows what they are talking about - of course do your research and know what is a fair price for what you want before you go in. But just because it is an independent jeweller does not mean that they are all over charging.//

Assuming (for the sake of argument) that diamonds aren't worth even a small fraction of what people pay for them (witnessed by the fact that they are - unlike gold - effectively unsellable) why would it matter whether a salesperson has a knowledge of stones or not?

Surely all that matters is that the diamond "look pretty" or some equally worthwhile measure of value?

mr_edge_to_you · 11-04-2009 07:10PM

memaul,

for what its worth, I was close to buying a ring for my fiancee before proposing. then i was advised by a close friend to just ask her and then go and pick a ring. to be honest what i thought my fiancee might like was nothing to what she chose herself - in fairness its a lovely ring, nicer than what i had in mind. we tried all the local jewellers and eventually she found that she loved and was the perfect fit - no adjusting to fit properly. with hindsight i'd advise any guy to the same thing. the old cliche "she knew when she saw it!".

best of luck with your plan anyway.

rom · 12-04-2009 02:37AM

go to the diamond district in new york and get the ring for 1/2 the price and get a holiday too. get it valued when you come back and she can tell all her friends how much its worth.

I paid a lot on herselfs ring but we are going buying our wedding rings in new york. we both want platinum and are very picky

even go up the North and save a few K. go to to Derry to get the best prices, further from Newery is cheaper

con1982 · 13-04-2009 04:17PM

We are spending 2000euro on an engagement ring. My fiance was happy with this and has checked online for rings within this price.

3 months salary is serious money to spend on a ring. Don't forget the cost of the wedding.

Get the ring for 1500 and treat yourself to a nice holiday.

CG

Creamy Goodness · 13-04-2009 04:31PM

if she was looking for 3 months salary at what intend to earn she'll be lucky to get an onion ring.

Climate Expert · 13-04-2009 05:50PM

There is at least a 50% probablity that your marriage will end in divorce so don't bother spending too much.

memaul · 14-04-2009 10:10AM

mr_edge_to_you wrote: »

memaul,

for what its worth, I was close to buying a ring for my fiancee before proposing. then i was advised by a close friend to just ask her and then go and pick a ring. to be honest what i thought my fiancee might like was nothing to what she chose herself - in fairness its a lovely ring, nicer than what i had in mind. we tried all the local jewellers and eventually she found that she loved and was the perfect fit - no adjusting to fit properly. with hindsight i'd advise any guy to the same thing. the old cliche "she knew when she saw it!".

best of luck with your plan anyway.

hey mr edge to you,

thanks for the advice but i usually do pretty good at picking out jewellery for her so i'm going to give it a shot. want it to be a real suprise.

helimachoptor · 15-04-2009 04:01PM

rom wrote: »

go to the diamond district in new york and get the ring for 1/2 the price and get a holiday too. get it valued when you come back and she can tell all her friends how much its worth.

I paid a lot on herselfs ring but we are going buying our wedding rings in new york. we both want platinum and are very picky

even go up the North and save a few K. go to to Derry to get the best prices, further from Newery is cheaper

I mentioned on another thread I seen I think it was a 1.25 carat ding in JFK for $1,000 not sure of the other details, but I think I'll be heading over there to get mine, so if anyone has recommendations for stores it would be appreciated!

Is 1500 enough for engagement ring

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