ATI

pseudo-tech · 25-03-2009 01:56PM

fatchops wrote: »

Should be interesting to hear what Cormac Allen has to say

Anything in particular you want to hear or just about the new courses that DIT are providing?

fatchops · 25-03-2009 03:06PM

Well the DIT courses are of interest certainly, but I would be interested to hear of any further developments that may be in the pipeline

pseudo-tech · 25-03-2009 03:08PM

fatchops wrote: »

Well the DIT courses are of interest certainly, but I would be interested to hear of any further developments that may be in the pipeline

Good point. It would be nice to hear some positive news from ATI and possibly where they intend to go from here!

fatchops · 25-03-2009 03:23PM

Could be 10 Euro well spent

pseudo-tech · 25-03-2009 03:38PM

fatchops wrote: »

Could be 10 Euro well spent

Agreed!!

ConfusedTech · 27-03-2009 06:46PM

pseudo-tech wrote: »

Is it not about time that Qualified Architectural Technicians/ Technologists are consulted about the workings of the Technical Guidance Documents. I for one feel that ATs should be playing a central role, if not given full responsibility for preparing them. We have given many examples of there failing together with many examples of where Architects don't understand them. When are Technicians going to stand up and be counted?? How can we position ourselves, in order to promote and expand our profession??

Agreed. Membership of the IBCI would assist in this!!! Can anybody report on the DIT meeting last night?

pseudo-tech · 31-03-2009 11:50AM

ConfusedTech wrote: »

CIAT: Very good at what they do for Techs in the UK, but not an Irish organisation. I have no issues with the UK, or English people, but I dont think representation from an organisation outside the country is in our interest.

They are the only organisation with the credibility to represent Technicians, therefore i don't understand your concern in relation to them representing us here in Ireland

ConfusedTech wrote: »

ATI: Still the only answer if you want proper and professional representation. Full Stop. Why do people keep beating around the bush!!!

I would really love to hear your justification of that statement. You are in dream land!!

sydthebeat · 31-03-2009 11:56AM

pseudo-tech wrote: »

I would certainly call Cormac's role on the IATGN into question at this stage taking on board his agenda in relation to DIT and his membership on the Technician committee within the RIAI. Too much control for my liking

be very, very careful here PT... any comments directly regarding a named person must be considered in full. Any comment that may be considered 'defamation' will result in the removal of the post and a site ban by the posters. Board.ie are extremely paranoid and cautious about this issue. I am not saying you would do this... this is not a threat, but just a word of warning. It would be a complete shame to loose your input because of something that may be construed as something else.... this is a very precarious area and one which all mods are warned to be extra cautious with.

pseudo-tech wrote: »

Syd. This is the third poster who feel that the applicants will be cherry picked. Where is the fairness here?? I feel that we are being used as pawns in the academic game and the personal promotion of those academics

PT each of you are giving your opinion... which is great!... but until someone backs this up with evidence then it only conjecture and not fact.

pseudo-tech wrote: »

This is a point that reared its head during a number of the IATGN discussions. I appreciate its not in place yet but the IATGN were certainly suggesting that the level 8 Degree would be the benchmark for entry into ATI. When challenged they suggested that experience would be looked at later but initially they would start with the Degree as an entry requirement. Now if we have to wait for them to implement this like we have waited for the I.T.s to set up adequate courses, we will be waiting a long time.

again, until someone has evidence of this being correct, it is supposition and conjecture and cannot be taken as fact or truth....

No6 · 31-03-2009 11:59AM

RIAI: An architectural institute that has the right to serve its members as priority. Its main focus is on architects and not technicians and rightly so. SHould they be the governing body, well thats another days posting!

Spot on

CIAT: Very good at what they do for Techs in the UK, but not an Irish organisation. I have no issues with the UK, or English people, but I dont think representation from an organisation outside the country is in our interest.

They have achieved a lot of AT's in Ireland in the last while, AIB and SEI recognition to name two. Perhaps we should Ask them to do more, if we don't ask how will they know what we need.

IBCI: Could be a very good springboard for Techies, as we have a lot in common. This organisation could get a lot from us, and we could give a lot to them. An odd, but very good synergy.

They do not want AT's anywhere near them, they changed theier entry criteria when a few of us applied for membership, we will not find a love fest for us here!!!

ATI: Still the only answer if you want proper and professional representation. Full Stop. Why do people keep beating around the bush!!!

Time will tell, we have all invested a lot of hope (and some a lot of time!!) in ATI

muffler · 31-03-2009 12:00PM

pseudo-tech wrote: »

I would certainly call Cormac's role on the IATGN into question at this stage taking on board his agenda in relation to DIT and his membership on the Technician committee within the RIAI. Too much control for my liking

Syd responded to this ahead of me so I will leave it for now. But you might be better taking a step back from this as I can see only one outcome if your posts continue in the same vain.

ConfusedTech · 31-03-2009 12:12PM

Pseudo, I have dealt with your comments with respect and would ask that you deal with me with respect also. I have an opinion, which does not put me in dreamland, it just means that we live in a democracy where anything is possible.

My comment is fully this: Representation will be much better dealt with with a body that acts wholly on our behalf, within the Irish industry and manned by people who work here in the industry, otherwise we run the risk of becoming a close second in the the institution we join. I dont want to go to the UK for AGMs etc. Afilliation with other instutions would be great, but for the past 15 years the BIAT/CIAT have had the chance, and in my opinion lost it on numerous occasions!!!

When I say ATI, I do not spcifically relate to the IATGN, rather an institution for and by the Technicians, here on home soil. That is the ideal solution, and if my comments were taken up 5 years ago, we would have had one now. My reply then was that it would take 5 years to do this and the other routes are quicker! Look at us now!!!

If you want me to further explain myself, please see my posts in the the sections relating specifically to this.

pseudo-tech · 31-03-2009 12:21PM

For clarity, my comments are in relation to ANY individual with a controlling/ management position in different organisations that have different positions in relation to a similar topic. It is extremely hard to be objective in this position if you are wearing different hats. I cannot question the effort that Cormac has put into the development of ATs here in Ireland to date. Well done in my opinion. My point is that i would like each group (ITs v ATI, RIAI, CIAT) to be completly seperate at this stage so that progess by one group is not subject to the others approval.

Lets get some meaningful open discussions so that we can see some real progress!

sydthebeat · 31-03-2009 12:28PM

pseudo-tech wrote: »

My point is that i would like each group (ITs v ATI, RIAI, CIAT) to be completly seperate at this stage so that progess by one group is not subject to the others approval.

what evidence can you possible have that RIAI, CIAT or ATI require the approval of the other bodies in order to carry out their work???

i think you are seeing conspiracies where none exist.

pseudo-tech wrote: »

Lets get some meaningful open discussions so that we can see some real progress!

we ARE having a meaningful discussion here, but please remember to be respectful to other posters that do not share your opinion.

ConfusedTech · 31-03-2009 12:43PM

In defence of Cormac. When he embarked on the two, there were no people stepping forward, no issues of representation and certifying and no Bologne accord and he was the only person with the balls to do what he did and put the work in. It is unfortunate, but true that he is involved in both. I dont agree with all of his statements or beliefs, but I for one would be concerned with others taking over certain posts at this time. Is there a conflict of interest, most certainly, but welcome to Ireland. i think the result will be in the way he deals with any conflicting points between IATGN, RIAI, CIAT and DIT.

archtech · 31-03-2009 12:45PM

ConfusedTech wrote: »

Archtech, I dont think that the entry criteria will be dictated or benchmarked by DIT for the IAT, and it should not be, but if it is the first course set up, it may seem that way.

The beginings of the IATGN and resultant ATI grew out of DIT (I've no problem with that it had to start somewhere) and much of the driving force behind ATI have connections with DIT, so DIT is in a stronger position that any of the other educational establishments to influence policy to its sole benefit I believe, whether it does or does not, time will tell.
As a point of information DIT is not the first level 8 AT course in the country... WIT have one for a number of years and LIT had one with UK links many years ago, although it may not have been classified as level 8.

ConfusedTech wrote: »

I cant see the IAT stopping people from entry at the beginning. They will have to build their numbers.

There will be entry requirements to joining ATI. There will have to be if ATI is to be taken as a professional body, otherwise we will have a case similar to what happened with Domestic BERs, with ever joe soap jumping on the bandwagon. However this topic is not the pace to discuss that.

I dont want to go to the UK for AGMs etc

You don't have to go to the UK from AGM's, The AGM of the ROI Centre is comming up shortly in Dublin

for the past 15 years the BIAT/CIAT have had the chance, and in my opinion lost it on numerous occasions!!!

you might care to expand on this in a separate topic, as there is loads of evidence to demonstrate CIAT supporting/working on behalf of and lobbying for the Architectural Technology Profession in Ireland for many years.

sydthebeat · 31-03-2009 12:48PM

Right, im making a point now of outlawing any discussion pertaining to Cormac Allen or any other specific individual. Regardless if theres good or bad comments made.

I dont want to hear that they are synonymous to the debate. If you cant post without direct reference, then do not post... its that simple.

As ive stated above, mods are warned to be extremly cautious about this issue and we have been advise that the sanction will be a site ban.

ConfusedTech · 31-03-2009 01:01PM

Archtech:
I acknowledge that there are other level 8 courses, and have noted these before. I wasnt clear. I meant to say that if it was the first course set up to comply and affiliate with the new institution, which is a possibility, then it will become the benchmark. Being Level 8 does not mean that any course is good enough for the institutions, it just means that the course has done the paperwork to get the title. Look at the some of UK courses with the title and how poor the resulting technicians are from there! Please remember that there are a number of items intertwining were on the timeline. Colleges that had the level 8, dont necesarily match up to the requirements of RIAI, CIAT etc.

Yes I agree that the ATI will have to set down criteria. I am saying that it will have to open levels of entry like every other institution to get the numbers up. I am trying to keep off the subject of certification, which is another topic.

I would have to go to the UK for the main AGM, or to be invovled in the main institution. The ROI is only part of that, and I am aware of there AGM which is on the 25th April.

I wont get into the CIAT thing, as I honestly dont have anything against them. My only point is that in 15 years a seperate body should have been set up by them here affiliated, but not integrated with them to allow us deal with our own problems. They have done good work, but they have also dragged their heels. My point stands, which is at the end of the day, the techies in the UK will always get first deal if they come under pressure.

No6 · 31-03-2009 01:02PM

When he who can't be named arose and .... oops hang on thats Harry Potter!!!:D

ConfusedTech · 31-03-2009 01:08PM

Can we say, refer to the 'Dept head arch tech DIT'? or that guy in IATGN? ......OK maybe not. Sorry Syd. Will refrain from mentioning the One.

No6 · 31-03-2009 01:17PM

ConfusedTech wrote: »

I wont get into the CIAT thing, as I honestly dont have anything against them. My only point is that in 15 years a seperate body should have been set up by them here affiliated, but not integrated with them to allow us deal with our own problems. They have done good work, but they have also dragged their heels. My point stands, which is at the end of the day, the techies in the UK will always get first deal if they come under pressure.

Perhaps you should check the history of representation of At's in Ireland, in 1987 IAAT amalgmated with the then BIAT (due I believe to lack of support for an independant body) and became the Ireland Center, I think its the Irish AT's who've been dragging their heels. Theres a small percentage of AT's who are active in trying to improve the situation with AT's in Ireland with various bodies, the rest either don't care or are just waiting for their cake!!!

ConfusedTech · 31-03-2009 01:23PM

No6, I agree, and I agree that Techies are the ones to blame in the most part. I do know the history, or part thereof and I do apprecaite the CIAT. I would just ask that you acknowledge my position, which is that we dont need a centre, we need an Irish Institution that can make its own decisions, not one with guidance from outside the country. This will make a diffrence in 10 years, although maybe not now.

No6 · 31-03-2009 01:44PM

You could be right confused but 10 years is a long time, we've had the option but chose not to bother. You are entiled to your opinion on the Ireland Center I just don't agree with it. I engaged with CIAT following the IATGN's own report which reccomended that we all do this, (how many did I wonder??) and I have been an RIAI TECH for years. When a number of issues arose and were brought to the attention of the various parties CIAT proved from my point of view to be head and shoulders above the rest as they acted and are acting on the issues and are engaged with Irish Institutions on issues of concern to some Irish Technicians and anything they achieve will be of benefit to all techs. I fear it will be 20 years before ATI wil have the same clout.

No6 · 31-03-2009 01:49PM

muffler wrote: »

Can we keep this on topic please.

Sorry perhaps a lot of the last few posts should go into the old ATI or representation threads. So whats the name of the bloke giving the course about whats its name in that college in where do you call it???:D

muffler · 31-03-2009 02:01PM

Some of you may find it funny posting childish comments after a mod has asked for a particular direction to be taken.

There wont be any further warnings.

pseudo-tech · 31-03-2009 03:02PM

ConfusedTech wrote: »

No6, I agree, and I agree that Techies are the ones to blame in the most part. I do know the history, or part thereof and I do apprecaite the CIAT. I would just ask that you acknowledge my position, which is that we dont need a centre, we need an Irish Institution that can make its own decisions, not one with guidance from outside the country. This will make a diffrence in 10 years, although maybe not now.

ConfusedTech, we are all Europeans now, even more since our Government acted like a poor person who won the lotto. The point is that the world in now a small place. Getting the CIAT with all the credibility they have to come in and back us Technicians in this Country is ideal. Putting your hopes into a fledgling organisation, that will not have similar credibility for another 20 years is optimistic. To be honest, it will certainly keep Technicians in their place for a long time. That may suit certain people.

We need our academics to embrace the CIAT as the principal body for technician recognition and stop playing games with our futures. We have to look past personal gains and promotion and credibly support the Technicians who are out there flying the flag!

sydthebeat · 31-03-2009 03:11PM

pseudo-tech wrote: »

ConfusedTech, we are all Europeans now, even more since our Government acted like a poor person who won the lotto. The point is that the world in now a small place. Getting the CIAT with all the credibility they have to come in and back us Technicians in this Country is ideal. Putting your hopes into a fledgling organisation, that will not have similar credibility for another 20 years is optimistic. To be honest, it will certainly keep Technicians in their place for a long time. That may suit certain people.

We need our academics to embrace the CIAT as the principal body for technician recognition and stop playing games with our futures. We have to look past personal gains and promotion and credibly support the Technicians who are out there flying the flag!

Ok, thats it.

pseudo-tech.... you continue to flaunt forum rules therefore you have recieved a 1 week ban from the Arch Tech forum.

please read the forum charter and specifically
...."While all discussion and debate is welcome, it should be noted that the forum may not be used to establish or promote any particular group or organisation."

ConfusedTech · 31-03-2009 03:47PM

It is my opinion! and to be honest, there is another thread for this, so I am not dealing with it here, 'again'!!!

ConfusedTech · 31-03-2009 07:44PM

ConfusedTech wrote: »

It is my opinion! and to be honest, there is another thread for this, so I am not dealing with it here, 'again'!!!

Hang on, that was a ground hog/doctor who moment. My last post made sense when it was actually in another thread. That was an unfair move

muffler · 31-03-2009 08:35PM

Thats why you have the word "Confused" in your nick

treviesweets · 01-04-2009 09:49PM

I'll retract that cause I actually have a proper question to pose....

You know there's all this whoo ha about the DIT level 8 course being recognised as by the RIAI and all that in the other thread. I assume after finishing the level 8, the RIAI are only going to offer TRIAI membership, is that actually recognised by the banks and the law society?

ATI

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