Crippling Pension Levy

deadwood · 17-03-2009 02:50PM

I think i'll shop around the other police forces in Ireland an negotiate betterpay and conditions for myself.

the_syco · 17-03-2009 03:14PM

Eru wrote: »

Nope, they left Ireland because the PRIVATE sector workers got greedy and was costing too much to pay, perhaps if those workers had taken a sufficient wage cut they could have kept their jobs? Thats one for their unions and staff. Doesnt explain why your asking me to take a reduction.

They left Ireland because the minimum wage in other countries is lower or there is no minimum wage where they're going to...

The minimum wage is not set by the private companies, it's set by the public companies.

deadwood wrote: »

I think i'll shop around the other police forces in Ireland an negotiate betterpay and conditions for myself.

Lucky you, as the private companies know they have the upper hand. You see, if the private companies went on strike, we'll be replaced; there's enough people out there looking for a job for it to happen. If the public services went on strike... the government tries to make a deal with them.

My point: the privates hand is weak, the public hand is as strong as it ever was.

Last thing: I wonder will the public sector still want what the IT companies have... massive lay-offs, massive cut backs...?

djtechnics1210 · 17-03-2009 03:24PM

the_syco wrote: »

They left Ireland because the minimum wage in other countries is lower or there is no minimum wage where they're going to...

The minimum wage is not set by the private companies, it's set by the public companies.

Lucky you, as the private companies know they have the upper hand. You see, if the private companies went on strike, we'll be replaced; there's enough people out there looking for a job for it to happen. If the public services went on strike... the government tries to make a deal with them.

My point: the privates hand is weak, the public hand is as strong as it ever was.

Last thing: I wonder will the public sector still want what the IT companies have... massive lay-offs, massive cut backs...?

AGS can't strike, we're not allowed.
Skilled employees are being kept in companies. Apple and the rest of them aren't laying off programmers, developers etc.

Eru · 17-03-2009 03:28PM

Sleipnir wrote: »

Fair enough, I'll hold my hand up about the OT. I was wrong about that. [Awaits frenzied attack from ERU]

I wont attack you. Im just going to put you were you have belonged since you started.

the_syco wrote: »

They left Ireland because the minimum wage in other countries is lower or there is no minimum wage where they're going to...

The minimum wage is not set by the private companies, it's set by the public companies.

NOt really. The government writes into law based on consultation with business and unions. At no point is AGS, DFB or Nurses and our unions involved. Either way, the minimum wage and the resulting problems in Dell, etc were not by my hand so why should I pay for it?

the_syco wrote: »

Lucky you, as the private companies know they have the upper hand. You see, if the private companies went on strike, we'll be replaced; there's enough people out there looking for a job for it to happen. If the public services went on strike... the government tries to make a deal with them.

Thats horse manure. You have the legal right to strike without losing your job. We dont. You seriously need to double check your employment agreement and rights.

the_syco wrote: »

My point: the privates hand is weak, the public hand is as strong as it ever was.

Funny how things turn around huh? I remember back on the 14th May 1999 the Irish times printing a story about how employers couldnt get the staff fast enough due to a shortage. This resulted in the workers being able gto make demands in return for their services or else the company lost business.

the_syco wrote: »

Last thing: I wonder will the public sector still want what the IT companies have... massive lay-offs, massive cut backs...?

I wonder why the public sector have such a dire need to drag everyone down with them

ixoy · 17-03-2009 03:36PM

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

Skilled employees are being kept in companies. Apple and the rest of them aren't laying off programmers, developers etc.

Not true - skilled employees are being let go. I know of a couple of good IT developers who've been let go in the last few months due to the downturn.

To those affected by the levy - would you prefer a pay cut or would you like an opt-out clause (with final pension adjusted accordingly or maybe no ability to get back in)?

Eru · 17-03-2009 03:42PM

ixoy wrote: »

Not true - skilled employees are being let go. I know of a couple of good IT developers who've been let go in the last few months due to the downturn.

Prove it with evidence please

deadwood · 17-03-2009 03:44PM

deadwood wrote: »

I think i'll shop around the other police forces in Ireland an negotiate betterpay and conditions for myself.

the_syco wrote: »

Lucky you, as the private companies know they have the upper hand. You see, if the private companies went on strike, we'll be replaced; there's enough people out there looking for a job for it to happen. If the public services went on strike... the government tries to make a deal with them.

The point being that I can't, unless I start in a different career. An I.T. worker, for example, can look into other I.T. companies here and abroad and negotiate conditions (in good times and bad). They can shop around for their pension and it's not compulsory. I can't do that as my experience and training is fairly specific to my job. And, besides, the ladeees love a man in uniform.

Some companies will hit the wall, some will thrive. That's competition.

For years, business here was calling out for a more laissez faire attitude from the government on one hand but insisting on low corporate taxes on the other. Irish private business has, to a large degree, proven they are unable to compete with the big boys without a leg up.

Now that things are tough for everyone, we are expected to dig deep again to bail out those who creamed it for so long.

We are also being made to feel guilty about having secure pensionable jobs. Well I chose a secure pensionable job when things were tough years ago. Was I lucky or wise?

djtechnics1210 · 17-03-2009 03:45PM

Every skilled person i know still has a job = that includes IT, aerospace, engineering, pharmaceutical.... i accept there are exceptions to every one though

I have no problem paying the pension levy but i feel that the public service is being scr*wed... every person in the country should be sharing the burden equally

And to answer your question... we've already taken a pay cut.
I signed a legally binding contract on joining and my pension was in that contract...... so i want every penny of my pension when i retire because so I am legally entitled to every penny of it. Not my fault or any other person in public sectors fault that government had to use the money to bail out the banks.

ixoy · 17-03-2009 03:48PM

Eru wrote: »

Prove it with evidence please

What? Are you for real? Not every redundancy makes national news - lots of small IT companies are reducing staff numbers and it won't make the press and I'm funnily enough not going to ask people to post up their letters.

I could equally ask posters here to put up all their bills and "prove" the levy is actually crippling to them.

Eru · 17-03-2009 03:49PM

ixoy wrote: »

What? Are you for real? Not every redundancy makes national news - lots of small IT companies are reducing staff numbers and it won't make the press and I'm funnily enough not going to ask people to post up their letters.

I could equally ask posters here to put up all their bills and "prove" the levy is actually crippling to them.

Absolutely agree. Thats my point. Its silly to ask people to show proof on the internet to back up personal experience

ixoy · 17-03-2009 03:57PM

Eru wrote: »

Absolutely agree. Thats my point. Its silly to ask people to show proof on the internet to back up personal experience

I'm not asking for proof though - I'm just asking what you think is a solution?

Pay cuts are unfortunately going to become common (actual cuts, not reneging on future pay rises) because various employers - including the government - suddenly don't have enough cash owing to a range of issues. The levy is a partial measure to rectify this but it's not nearly enough. If the public sector were to take all the pain, you'd have to be paid nothing for the next few years. The next measure, the new budget, will affect all equally. It's all pain, no gain and yes be annoyed but accept that many people will be sharing other pain that you won't face and there's going to be a lot of unhappiness.

badlyparkedmerc · 17-03-2009 04:08PM

Prove it with evidence please

Wish gardai were always so anxious about having evidence.

How about Ericcson? 300 layoffs. http://www.javno.com/en-world/ericsson-to-cut-300-jobs-in-ireland_231454
One example - but it's seen as a bell weather within the local industry.

There are many people being let go but they don't often hit the news IT contractors getting slashed in the private and even more so in the public sector.

Gardai could easily switch over to security work, so they're actually better placed than many public sector workers for switching to the private sector. Won't get paid as much but that's the way of our critically unbalanced economy

djtechnics1210 · 17-03-2009 04:09PM

Id say there's a lot of repossessions going to happen this year......

djtechnics1210 · 17-03-2009 04:16PM

badlyparkedmerc wrote: »

There are many people being let go but they don't often hit the news IT contractors getting slashed in the private and even more so in the public sector.

Gardai could easily switch over to security work, so they're actually better placed than many public sector workers for switching to the private sector. Won't get paid as much but that's the way of our critically unbalanced economy

Plus most members of AGS have a degree at the very least these days before joining up... so they don't need to become security guards.

These people chose to join AGS instead of private sector during the good times, they could have made a fortune in private sector but gave there expertise to AGS.... some thanks they got

ixoy · 17-03-2009 07:24PM

happyhappy wrote: »

i am still glad i joined the gardai and have no regrets but what i want is some form of fairness in how everyone contributes.

Well you just said though that they took a 10% cut, which is more than the pension levy adds up to... so what extra additional cut should they take? If you want fairness, should you not take an equal cut? Should they pay a pension levy in addition to their 10% cut in addition to all the other levies and tax increases we're all facing? How is that fair either? Should everyone have the exact same wage?

deadwood · 17-03-2009 08:34PM

badlyparkedmerc wrote: »

Gardai could easily switch over to security work, so they're actually better placed than many public sector workers for switching to the private sector. Won't get paid as much but that's the way of our critically unbalanced economy

Your idea of Garda work is a little . . . naive? A guard would be more suited to administration!

deadwood · 17-03-2009 08:35PM

psni wrote: »

...now that's settled, please bring this back on topic.

Back out of retirement?
A little tough love required in the E.S forum!

johnnyrotten · 17-03-2009 08:51PM

pa990 wrote: »

i think you might rethink/rewrite your post..

we are not allowed to strike.

Speak for yourself

johnnyrotten · 17-03-2009 08:52PM

amacachi wrote: »

I've no problem if the Guards go on strike, once they don't announce it, just to see who notices other than people who need a passport application form stamped.

Idiotic Post

johnnyrotten · 17-03-2009 08:57PM

Sleipnir wrote: »

My friend's cousin is a Garda earning around 40k basic and took in €83,000 last year with OT.
"Pay into my pension too?!?!?. STRRRRRIKE!"

Many people are taking pure pay cuts i.e. "you have to take a 20% pay cut which we will keep for the company"
and not ;
"we'll take some money off you now and give it, and lot's more, back to you when you retire"

**PS** I happen to think the Emergency Services do great work but I keep hearing them say;
"we know there's a recession and I want to do my bit to help but not with a pension levy"

So, if you don't want a pension levy, how about a pay cut?

This Pension levy has nothing to do with the pensions. Its is PAY CUT.
It is also designed to cull the numbers by forcing people into retirement.
Unfortunately the frontline services ( Fire, Ambulance, Garda, Nursing, Prison Officers, Teachers etc) cannot take a mass exodus of staff.
The funds generated are not going into the pension fund.
When the economy turns around we will be left far far behind and the private sector will not give a sh!t

ixoy · 17-03-2009 09:44PM

johnnyrotten wrote: »

When the economy turns around we will be left far far behind and the private sector will not give a sh!t

That's very much an unknown quantity - certainly in the near future you won't be. Long term we don't know.

The private sector may indeed not care if the public sector is seen to be throwing its toys out of the pram once too often over the next couple of years. Already the furore generated over a levy (which is indeed a pay cut but for pensioning those retired) when stacked against cuts some are experiencing in the private sector means that already there is an erosion of sympathy. People being what they are, I wouldn't be too surprised if there's an element of schadenfreude when the public sector is seen to be wanting parity of pay when it may not have suffered the parity of loss that elements (I'm stressing it as elements!) of the private sector will be going through.

Satan Polaroid · 29-03-2009 01:31PM

With the Income levy being doubled to 2%, along with the Pension levy, means I am going to be down €100 a week! :mad:

I was in favour of some sort of tax going the government, but this is just ridiculous.

I obtained a mortgage, and car, based on wages I was supposed to be earning. Now the government have changed the goal posts.

Coupled with no Overtime, no Sub, I am struggling mightily with repayments (on a fixed rate mortgage).
Not cool.

Rant over.

goldie fish · 29-03-2009 01:44PM

At least you are on a fixed rate. Rates due to skyrocket again next year.

Satan Polaroid · 29-03-2009 01:48PM

goldie fish wrote: »

At least you are on a fixed rate. Rates due to skyrocket again next year.

I'd be saving around €450 PER MONTH on a variable rate

daithip · 29-03-2009 02:47PM

Would have been alot simpler if they had had the balls and come out and say, look you're taking a paycut fullstop, rather than disguising it.

Merch · 29-03-2009 03:20PM

Regarding pensions, people are unhappy to pay for something they're getting?? that is of more value than you put in.

I have been in the public & private sector and self employed.

The complaining about the levy is sickening, honestly, I would be personally very grateful to have a job, thousands are out of work.
There is no equation between public and private sector, this crap, if I stayed in the private sector I could have earned x y or z? you made your decision, if you think you are that badly off, leave and join the ranks of the private sector??
As far as I can see people are much better off in the public sector, I have been there.
Job security means a lot, the selfishness of the people in this country amazes me.
We have relatively low taxes. see Finland/Sweden.

Everyone needs to contribute in these times, there is less money to fund the public sector in these times so it has to be rationalised??
People are living in a dream world.

I'd be happy to have a job now, I'm not complaining about my decision to sign the dotted line for my mortgage or having left the public service, I have zero pay and I still have to fund my mortgage!
I have been given nothing from SW in months despite contributing significant taxes for a decade and a half.
When the savings run out some of us will be living on borrowed time, we didnt/still dont have fancy cars or had lots of holidays.

it is galling to hear people complain, reality has to set in or we will be funding a further disater in the future.
If the public/civil/govt sectors aren't re-organised there may be no money to pay your pension if we keep our inefficient screwed up system!

Satan Polaroid · 29-03-2009 03:32PM

Fair point, and one I mostly agree with.

But to take €100 extra in tax a week seems a tad unfair to me, especially when the banks, and the higher management in those banks, appear to be getting away scot free.

daithip · 29-03-2009 03:39PM

This public v private sector debate could go on forever. We all made our decisions about where we worked, but call a spade a spade, the pension levy is a paycut in disguise, it doesn't increase or decrease what I will eventually get in my pension so as I said already, why didn't the government just have the balls come out and say we're cutting public service wages by x%. End off.

ixoy · 29-03-2009 03:48PM

daithip wrote: »

This public v private sector debate could go on forever. We all made our decisions about where we worked, but call a spade a spade, the pension levy is a paycut in disguise, it doesn't increase or decrease what I will eventually get in my pension so as I said already, why didn't the government just have the balls come out and say we're cutting public service wages by x%. End off.

Oh it's for all intents and purposes a pay cut but I'm assuming the only reason that it wasn't treated as a pay cut is so that the pensioners won't have their pension reduced by the levy which they would have if they had gone for a regular pay cut. Regardless of the need to cut pay, it's a pretty devious way they've gone about it - how shocking from such a morally upright party with such high values...

Merch · 29-03-2009 03:50PM

The Govt needs to make executive decisions, the people voted them in right or wrong, some by their lack of voting.

The Govt is in charge or should be, not the unions nor the public sectors.

I'd be happy to get a social welfare payment and spend my time earning that by using my experience or labour to contribute to ongoing infrastructure projects.

When you're on 100% pay cut a 10% cut looks very attractive.

Crippling Pension Levy

Comments