82km/h in a 60km/h zone? That'll be €111,888.00 please

unkel · 10-03-2009 03:43PM #1

:rolleyes:

Only in Finland

Terra · 10-03-2009 04:01PM

Cool system

ArphaRima · 10-03-2009 04:13PM

I've heard of this before. All I can say is F3ck that!

As someone with a decent salary I can honestly say that I'd prefer to default and go to jail, or emigrate rather than pay that on principle. Ridiculous law! At the very least it should be capped at lets say 5,000.

peasant · 10-03-2009 04:14PM

yeah, I like that (sort of)

Why such a huge speeding ticket? In Finland fines are issued according to ones salary per day. As Mr. Bär was 2 km over the standard fine range he had to pay his 12 days income

robtri · 10-03-2009 04:15PM

now thsts the type of system we need here.....

1huge1 · 10-03-2009 04:16PM

ya read that or something like it in the guinness world records book a few years back.

10-03-2009 04:19PM

fluffer wrote: »

I've heard of this before. All I can say is F3ck that!

As someone with a decent salary I can honestly say that I'd prefer to default and go to jail, or emigrate rather than pay that on principle. Ridiculous law! At the very least it should be capped at lets say 5,000.

Or, and this might be a mad idea, don't break the speed limit.

A system like this will never be brought in here where the people who make the laws are rich themselves.

JimmyCrackCorn! · 10-03-2009 04:20PM

I like the system the way it is.

Now if tits would pull in and let me overtake rather than hogging the right hand lane it would be greatly appreciated.

As for the Pc/High horse brigade/self appointed road safety experts. Please dont bother.

ArphaRima · 10-03-2009 04:21PM

Just did some quick maths. A fairly average salary of 50,000 would attract a fine of 1640 Euro!

Remember this isnt for dangerous or reckless driving, this is for a benign 22kph over the limit. My mother is the slowest driver I've ever encountered, and she has 4 points from a trip to galway 2 yrs ago. That wouldve been 3280 euro in the space of a week to pay! That'd bankrupt the average person.
Ridiculous law.
The people lauding it here either dont have cars or must have cars that take 20 minutes to accelerate from 60-80 kph.

Stark · 10-03-2009 04:25PM

Basing a fine off someone's salary makes sense in principle I think. Your standard €50 or whatever it is fine might act as a deterrant to someone who's struggling to buy groceries week on week, but is small change to someone on a high salary who probably saves at least that much by being at their destination 20 mins quicker. 12 days income is way over the top though.

BeardyGit · 10-03-2009 04:30PM

JimmyCrackCorn! wrote: »

I like the system the way it is.

Now if tits would pull in and let me overtake rather than hogging the right hand lane it would be greatly appreciated.

As for the Pc/High horse brigade/self appointed road safety experts. Please dont bother.

Your time would be better spent trying to jam more corn in your crack there lad than suggest we not bother. Sure, where's the fun in an argument if it's only one sided?

Finland are spot on with their policy. I've a friend who's husband was done for speeding a couple of times during a family holiday in Finland. He ignored the charges, thinking it would go away. Three years later or thereabouts he was taken aside to a room in HKI international airport and questioned about the outstanding penalties. He had to hand over his credit card to pay the fines there and then, or else wait for the next flight home.....

You have to applaud a system as efficient as that. On all major roads there, you'll hit a speed camera every couple of kilometers. It's impressive in terms of sheer scale alone. I can't wait until our roads are littered with speed cameras.... It'll do wonders for the public finances.

And you know what? Nobody would have to pay speeding fines if they simply didn't speed.

Zube · 10-03-2009 04:35PM

fluffer wrote: »

The people lauding it here either dont have cars or must have cars that take 20 minutes to accelerate from 60-80 kph.

In other words, you don't like this system because it would stop people driving fast, which is the idea.

markpb · 10-03-2009 04:35PM

fluffer wrote: »

I've heard of this before. All I can say is F3ck that!

As someone with a decent salary I can honestly say that I'd prefer to default and go to jail, or emigrate rather than pay that on principle. Ridiculous law! At the very least it should be capped at lets say 5,000.

You think a fine system based on wages is unfair?! Would you prefer if we ditched the tax bands and everyone paid €5,000 per year? Of course not, the rich wouldn't notice but the poor would be crippled. What's the difference between tax and fines - shouldn't both be fair?

Eoin · 10-03-2009 04:41PM

markpb wrote: »

You think a fine system based on wages is unfair?! Would you prefer if we ditched the tax bands and everyone paid €5,000 per year? Of course not, the rich wouldn't notice but the poor would be crippled. What's the difference between tax and fines - shouldn't both be fair?

A fine should be related to the offence that was made, not a person's ability to pay it. I don't think you can equate taxes and fines.

markpb · 10-03-2009 04:43PM

eoin wrote: »

A fine should be related to the offence that was made, not a person's ability to pay it. I don't think you can equate taxes and fines.

A fine is a punishment for breaking the law and should be a deterrent from breaking it again in the future. A small fine for a rich person isn't much of a deterrent.

Zube · 10-03-2009 04:45PM

eoin wrote: »

A fine should be related to the offence that was made, not a person's ability to pay it.

So if I drive a €250,000 car, do you think a fine of €80 will deter me from speeding, in the same way it would a student in her Seicento?

This is why we needed a points system, because a fine worth one tank of petrol just isn't a deterrent for a lot of people.

ArphaRima · 10-03-2009 04:46PM

You think a fine system based on wages is unfair?! Would you prefer if we ditched the tax bands and everyone paid €5,000 per year? Of course not, the rich wouldn't notice but the poor would be crippled. What's the difference between tax and fines - shouldn't both be fair?

Yes I believe THAT system is unfair. You are discounting speeding offences for people with lower salaries. If I am a citizen of a state. I want to be treated equally in the eyes of the law, regardless of my income.

I will not debate taxation, wrong forum. But what I will say is that the rich do pay far more taxes than the poor. 40% of the population dont pay any! Yet I technically benefit less from the state. I have no issue there, I support the weak.
But to say that charging one person 3000 euro, and another 130,000 for a civil or criminal offence is fair is quite frankly beyond me. My income should be of no consequence to the application of these kinds of laws. I should be an equal in the eyes of the state legal system to any other citizen.

edit: And as already mentioned we have an effective deterrent: points. Regardless of income, status or background it applies to all.

Eoin · 10-03-2009 04:48PM

markpb wrote: »

A fine is a punishment for breaking the law and should be a deterrent from breaking it again in the future. A small fine for a rich person isn't much of a deterrent.

No, but penalty points can be a deterrent. The only relevant thing, in my opinion, is how safely (or not) the person was driving. Should richer people also pay more car tax for exactly the same car for example?

Stark · 10-03-2009 04:52PM

Gil_Dub wrote:

It's impressive in terms of sheer scale alone. I can't wait until our roads are littered with speed cameras.... It's do wonders for the public finances.

This being Ireland, they'd probably end up contracting to a private company who'll reap most of the profits.

Zube · 10-03-2009 04:52PM

fluffer wrote: »

If I am a citizen of a state. I want to be treated equally in the eyes of the law, regardless of my income.

But you are: everyone pays x weeks income, regardless of what income they are on, unlike here, where a guy on €500,000 p.a. pays .8% of a weeks wage, and a guy on €20,000 pays 20%.

markpb · 10-03-2009 04:52PM

eoin wrote: »

Should richer people also pay more car tax for exactly the same car for example?

No because car tax should not be a deterrent to driving. Speeding fines should be a deterrent to speeding. In any event, car tax is inherently progressive because rich people tend to buy more expensive cars and automatically pay more tax.

Stark · 10-03-2009 04:54PM

fluffer wrote: »

Yes I believe THAT system is unfair. You are discounting speeding offences for people with lower salaries. If I am a citizen of a state. I want to be treated equally in the eyes of the law, regardless of my income.

I will not debate taxation, wrong forum. But what I will say is that the rich do pay far more taxes than the poor. 40% of the population dont pay any! Yet I technically benefit less from the state. I have no issue there, I support the weak.
But to say that charging one person 3000 euro, and another 130,000 for a civil or criminal offence is fair is quite frankly beyond me. My income should be of no consequence to the application of these kinds of laws. I should be an equal in the eyes of the state legal system to any other citizen.

edit: And as already mentioned we have an effective deterrent: points. Regardless of income, status or background it applies to all.

Your issue is that at the moment you can afford to speed, whereas if they brought in a salary-based fine system, then the fines would act as a deterrent. Which shock horror, is their purpose.

biko · 10-03-2009 04:56PM

In Finland fines are issued according to ones salary per day. As Mr. Bär was 2 km over the standard fine range he had to pay his 12 days income. If his income in 2007 had been 50 euros a day, then the ticket would have been 600 euros.

It turns out that in 2007 he sold a majority stake in his company and in average made an impressive 9300 euros a day, which translates to a 111,888 euros speeding ticket. Of course Mr. Bär is not happy as his real income today is not that big.

In Finland tax records are public and there is no such thing as maximum fines. The more you make the more you pay!

I've heard of this before "day fine". It does makes sense but should allow for interpretation, which of course would be a legal loophole for the rich...

ArphaRima · 10-03-2009 04:59PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fluffer
If I am a citizen of a state. I want to be treated equally in the eyes of the law, regardless of my income.

But you are: everyone pays x weeks income, regardless of what income they are on, unlike here, where a guy on €500,000 p.a. pays .8% of a weeks wage, and a guy on €20,000 pays 20%.
Today 15:52

Eh.. What? I said regardless of my income. That's directly proportional to my income.

Your issue is that at the moment you can afford to speed, whereas if they brought in a salary-based fine system, then the fines would act as a deterrent.

Actually we should bring in the death penalty for speeding. Because it's THAT bad an offence. Appropriate deterrents already exist for speeding. They are points, standardised fines and imprisonment.
I can think of a million deterrents. But what we in society have to do is enforce appropriate ones. I dont think a 130,000 fine for operating a vehicle at 22kph above the speed limit is appropriate. Do you? Really?

Stark · 10-03-2009 05:07PM

12 days salary might be excessive, but there's nothing wrong with the idea of a fine being proportional to income. There's absolutely no point in fining someone on a 6 figure salary the sum of €50.

fluffer wrote:

Actually we should bring in the death penalty for speeding. Because it's THAT bad an offence.

Did I make a judgement call on the offence? All I suggested was that the punishment should be imposed in a fair way. The current punishment only affects people on low incomes.

Eoin · 10-03-2009 05:12PM

markpb wrote: »

No because car tax should not be a deterrent to driving. Speeding fines should be a deterrent to speeding. In any event, car tax is inherently progressive because rich people tend to buy more expensive cars and automatically pay more tax.

Does this not mean that unemployed people can do 50 over the limit and pay with a food voucher or something?

Again, this is what penalty points are for. The crime should be punished, not the salary.

ArphaRima · 10-03-2009 05:34PM

the punishment should be imposed in a fair way. The current punishment only affects people on low incomes.

As Eoin said. Penalty points already address this.

This is the kind of ill-considered, populist, hair-brained policy I would expect a Green Party or Sinn Fein rep to come up with.

Caliden · 10-03-2009 06:04PM

Nice system, the guy was even given 20km/h over the limit to which a standard fine applied.

Stark · 10-03-2009 06:07PM

fluffer wrote: »

As Eoin said. Penalty points already address this.

Penalty points don't address the issue of the fines themselves being unfair.

Eoin · 10-03-2009 06:13PM

Stark wrote: »

Penalty points don't address the issue of the fines themselves being unfair.

They do address the issue of having a punishment that equally affects all people. Fines are fair - everyone should pay the same. Life isn't fair, and some people make more money. Why not go the whole hog and have richer people pay for poorer peoples speeding tickets.

Stark · 10-03-2009 06:22PM

eoin wrote: »

They do address the issue of having a punishment that equally affects all people. Fines are fair - everyone should pay the same.

It's only fair if the impact of paying the fine is the same.

eoin wrote: »

Life isn't fair, and some people make more money. Why not go the whole hog and have richer people pay for poorer peoples speeding tickets.

Because that would be a slippery slope fallacy.

82km/h in a 60km/h zone? That'll be €111,888.00 please

Comments