ESB offers 9c to micro-generators

Cheeble · 19-02-2009 6:29pm

wazzoraybelle wrote: »

My own site has a wind speed of 8m/s

It's you site sure, but that seems high to me. How did you measure it, at what height, and over what time period?

Cheeble-eers

wazzoraybelle · 20-02-2009 10:05am

Sei wind map, It has the site at 8.25-8.75m/s constrained/unconstrained at 50metres asl.

Cheeble · 20-02-2009 10:37am

I'd suggest caution. Wind Maps have their place, but they've been shown to be systematically unreliable for small onshore applications. Unless a site has roughness class zero (open sea for 1km in every direction), and planning consent for a fifty metre high tower, we should probably halve the wind map figures: that's one eighth of the electricity generated.

To anyone considering investing in a wind turbine: take at least a few months of data at the proposed mounting height before spending the money. The break even period could turn out to be 160+ years.

At the proposed (oops, accepted) feed in tariff, it adds up to not installing embedded microgeneration for financial reasons.

wazzoraybelle · 20-02-2009 10:51am

It is an exposed coastal site with and a 9metre tower would bring the turbine up to 50m asl. For calculation purposes I've been using a lower figure of 7m/sec which I feel is more than cautious.
We are a few miles from a weather station which is more sheltered than our site and could use its data if necessary to further evaluate the site if necessary.
However with the tariff announcement we will be holding off any installation until further support is introduced.

quentingargan · 20-02-2009 3:34pm

The reduction in wind speed from 50m down to 12m depends on roughness class of the surrounding land. On very smooth land (roughness class 0.5 to 1.0) the losses would be lower. Basically vegetation introduces friction at lower altitudes.

I use the table here For roughness class 2, this would bring 8.5 m/sec down to 6.3m/sec at 10m or 7.25 at 20m.

But it is better to actually get an anemometer up there and see what happens.

Skillie · 24-02-2009 2:50pm

Can anyone tell me roughly now what size turbine it would take to sustain a 3000 sq ft house with ground source geothermal heating? 6kW?? How much would one of these systems cost? With the new grid tie getting the green light could i effectively create enough electricity to sustain my house? I know site and wind conditions would have to be checked out but I'd love to be self sufficient and as green as possible even if the ESB's buyback rate never actually pays for my capital investment. Also do any companies sell these systems on a finance package over 10 years kinda thing? sorry for all the questions

quentingargan · 24-02-2009 11:28pm

Skillie wrote: »

Can anyone tell me roughly now what size turbine it would take to sustain a 3000 sq ft house with ground source geothermal heating? 6kW?? How much would one of these systems cost? With the new grid tie getting the green light could i effectively create enough electricity to sustain my house? I know site and wind conditions would have to be checked out but I'd love to be self sufficient and as green as possible even if the ESB's buyback rate never actually pays for my capital investment. Also do any companies sell these systems on a finance package over 10 years kinda thing? sorry for all the questions

Hi, Depends on your ESB bill. Your geothermal system depends really on house insulation and the temperature you keep your house at.

You can have a go at gauging the wind energy on your site. There is a wind map here . Get to your location and then click the info button. You will get wind speeds at 50m 75m and 100m. You need to modify that for the height you will be at, depending also on the roughness of the local vegetation.

There is no shortcut to doing this, because a site with a mean wind speed of 5 m/sec will produce about half of what you would get at a mean wind speed of 7 m/sec.

I don't know of anyone offering a finance package on this. If you do your figures properly your bank might support it on a good site. Tell them you'll report 'em to the fraud squad if they don't.:cool:

Q

Skillie · 25-02-2009 2:25pm

quentingargan wrote: »

Hi, Depends on your ESB bill. Your geothermal system depends really on house insulation and the temperature you keep your house at.

You can have a go at gauging the wind energy on your site. There is a wind map here . Get to your location and then click the info button. You will get wind speeds at 50m 75m and 100m. You need to modify that for the height you will be at, depending also on the roughness of the local vegetation.

There is no shortcut to doing this, because a site with a mean wind speed of 5 m/sec will produce about half of what you would get at a mean wind speed of 7 m/sec.

I don't know of anyone offering a finance package on this. If you do your figures properly your bank might support it on a good site. Tell them you'll report 'em to the fraud squad if they don't.:cool:

Q

thank you its telling me i've got 7 to 7.5 in the area roughly. prob is i've a 2 acre site chopped out of a forest so i'll tall trees all round and don't know if i'd get a good enough flow. leccy bills will prob be 150 to 200 bucks a month depending (not enough data as not living there yet). just wondering if theres any rules of thumb about calculating what size turbine a house needs based on its size etc. our ultimate goal is to have a carbon neutral house which is self sustained energy wise.

Cheeble · 25-02-2009 8:58pm

Try to get an anenometer up at the site as the earliest opportunity, and take data over at least three months (ideally a full year) before you decide to do anything. 7 to 7.5 is a very windy site, unless you can get your turbine well above the tree line, you'll be lucky to get this.

Depending on the exact geography, you might find the trees channel the prevailing wind into a particular airstream so one area could be windy, whilst others are sheltered.

A 6kW turbine should cost you anything between 15,000 and 40,000 depending on site, tower, civil works, grid connection, planning costs etc. and on a good site (clifftop near the sea) would be expected to generate just over 10,000kWh annually.

quentingargan · 26-02-2009 2:29am

Skillie wrote: »

thank you its telling me i've got 7 to 7.5 in the area roughly. prob is i've a 2 acre site chopped out of a forest so i'll tall trees all round and don't know if i'd get a good enough flow. leccy bills will prob be 150 to 200 bucks a month depending (not enough data as not living there yet). just wondering if theres any rules of thumb about calculating what size turbine a house needs based on its size etc. our ultimate goal is to have a carbon neutral house which is self sustained energy wise.

I agree about getting an anemometer. It is probably the best option. You may do well to opt for a very tall tower - greater than the 13M tip height exempt under planning, and this'll cost yer, but in your situation, a small turbine on a tall tower may work better than a large turbine on a short one. If the budget is limited, favour the tower...

It depends on the topography. Do you have a clear view above the trees from the ground in the direction of SW to NW?

A wind speed of 7 at 50m is a lot less than that at 11m, epecially in rough terrain... Pity you want the house carbon neutral, or you could cut down the trees... :eek:

I.K.Brunel · 26-02-2009 10:27am

Minister Ryan will be making an announcement of additional support for microgenerators today!

Happy days!!:D

quentingargan · 26-02-2009 11:18am

I.K.Brunel wrote: »

Minister Ryan will be making an announcement of additional support for microgenerators today!

Happy days!!:D

Very happy!! According to the Indo, the rate is 19c per KwHr!!

That should make a few more sites viable....:rolleyes:

Skillie · 26-02-2009 11:22am

what height should i mount an anemometer at to monitor the wind over a period of time? On the house?

SW is the hill of trees in the pic NW isn't too bad. second pic is looking south. Being that its Coilte land the trees may not be there for much longer they are fairly mature now and once they fel them they may or may not replant there. They look great though so hope they do even if they screw up my wind!!

Victor · 26-02-2009 11:27am

Heroditas wrote: »

9% of our electricity in 2006 was generated using oil. I would hardly call that cronyism.

The prices of other fuels are related to oil to some degree or other.

Heroditas · 26-02-2009 12:05pm

Victor wrote: »

The prices of other fuels are related to oil to some degree or other.

Pretty much everything is linked to the price of oil.

Scruff · 26-02-2009 12:50pm

quentingargan wrote: »

Very happy!! According to the Indo, the rate is 19c per KwHr!!

That should make a few more sites viable....:rolleyes:

Any links to this announcement? cant seems to find any...

I.K.Brunel · 26-02-2009 2:26pm

Scruff wrote: »

Any links to this announcement? cant seems to find any...

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/People+power+-+Minister+Ryan+announces+incentives+for+micro-generation.htm

Skillie · 26-02-2009 3:01pm

great news that is 19c/kW excellent.

wazzoraybelle · 26-02-2009 7:02pm

Wow, great news!!

I.K.Brunel · 26-02-2009 7:11pm

Easy! Don't get too excited - the small print reveals a lot!

apparently the 9c/kWh energy purchase by ESB Customer Supply is straight forward.
However the 10c/kWh incentive payment by ESB Networks is limited to 4,000 customers; 3,000kWh/yr and 5 years.

wazzoraybelle · 26-02-2009 7:26pm

there's the rub! So effectively the maximum benefit is 300€ per year over 5 years, €1500 euro much really,may take a year off the payback.

wazzoraybelle · 26-02-2009 8:03pm

I.K.Brunel wrote: »

Easy! Don't get too excited - the small print reveals a lot!

apparently the 9c/kWh energy purchase by ESB Customer Supply is straight forward.
However the 10c/kWh incentive payment by ESB Networks is limited to 4,000 customers; 3,000kWh/yr and 5 years.

Do you have a link to the small print? can't seem to find it. Ta

quentingargan · 27-02-2009 12:28am

wazzoraybelle wrote: »

Do you have a link to the small print? can't seem to find it. Ta

Well spotted I.K.Brunnel. :cool:

That link is here on the ESB site at the bottom of the page in the questions bit...

Q

Connacht · 27-02-2009 1:33pm

Lads,
Presumably there is a real opportunity here for small businesses on windy sites, where they only consume electricity from 9 to 5 Mon - Fri to install a wind turbine, produce 24 / 7 and sell 2 full days prodcution + 16 hrs / day for the other 5 to the grid ? Or community centres, or sports clubs ?

quentingargan · 27-02-2009 1:53pm

Connacht wrote: »

Lads,
Presumably there is a real opportunity here for small businesses on windy sites, where they only consume electricity from 9 to 5 Mon - Fri to install a wind turbine, produce 24 / 7 and sell 2 full days prodcution + 16 hrs / day for the other 5 to the grid ? Or community centres, or sports clubs ?

Yes, but bear in mind that only the first 3 KwHr per year is eligible for the 19c rate - the rest will be sold at 9c. So in most cases, including houses, this new rate provides more benefit for smaller turbines where the excess power sold is within the 3,000 range.

Also, so far this scheme only applies to domestic consumers. The ESB has been asked to sort out the VAT issues causing this requirement, and I am not sure what the time scale for resolving that might be, considering it took us decades to get a tariff in the first place...

Connacht · 27-02-2009 4:34pm

Yeah, granted the 19c rate isn't for all that much, but if you treat that as a 'bonus' and concentrate on the 9c rate, then it's still better than a kick in the teeth.
But you say it's only for domestic anyway, so no good to clubs, centres, businesses, etc.

Cheeble · 28-02-2009 12:43pm

Skillie wrote: »

what height should i mount an anemometer at to monitor the wind over a period of time? On the house?

The trick is to try to get the anenometer in the same place as you want to put the turbine. Unfortunately, that might mean erecting a temporary tower. It's tempting to put one on the house on the basis that it's at the same height, but the building just changes the surrounding airflow too much.

Nice pics btw

Cheeble-eers

Oldtree · 28-02-2009 2:19pm

One of my concerns with the new tariff is that it is guranteed for the first 4,000 applicants for the next 5 years only, with a Maximum production level, with (depending on site winds) a possible payback of up to 12 years at that tariff.

What will happen after that 5 year period to those 4,000? You have outlayed loads of money for the turbine and it is the ministers adgenda to stimulate the renewable wind industry at all costs (preferably yours) there is no gurantee of a similar price after the first three years. If they do what i think they will, which is to no longer provide any special tariffs after that point, allowing market forces to come into play, which could then mena you may take over 25 years to get payback and i don't think that the turbine will last that long.

So i would be very careful with this one, notwithstanding maintainance costs and replacement bits, tax and prsi on income, etc.

My own opinion is that nett metering is the only secure way forward with this, in particular with the large investment required to get a decent turbine.

Skillie · 04-03-2009 3:47pm

Cheeble wrote: »

The trick is to try to get the anenometer in the same place as you want to put the turbine. Unfortunately, that might mean erecting a temporary tower. It's tempting to put one on the house on the basis that it's at the same height, but the building just changes the surrounding airflow too much.

Nice pics btw

Cheeble-eers

thank you kindly

Gagetman · 09-03-2009 11:33pm

Can anyone tell me if the windturbine has to be an approved type or will any one do?
G:)

ESB offers 9c to micro-generators

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