2 Dead several others shot outside Army base Antrim

Duffers · 09-03-2009 02:13PM

Mairt wrote: »

You forget to mention that their unit, as part of the British war machine was deploying to the killing fields of Afghanistan - I'm reminded of the words from The Ballad of Joe McDonald..

"And you dare to call me a terrorist
While you look down your gun
When I think of all the deeds that you have done
You have plundered many nations, divided many lands
You have terrorized their peoples, you rule with an iron hand
And you brought this reign of terror to my land "

And finally to the oration given by Pearce over Rossa's grave..

""Life springs from death; and from the graves of patriot men and women spring living nations. The Defenders of this Realm have worked well in secret and in the open. They think that they have pacified Ireland. They think that they have purchased half of us and intimidated the other half. They think that they have foreseen everything, think that they have provided against everything; but, the fools, the fools, the fools! — They have left us our Fenian dead, and while Ireland holds these graves, Ireland unfree shall never be at peace."

My personal opinion is that these people (the gunmen) are murdering bastards who next week might decide to shoot dead a protestant man in front of his family, or throw a bomb into a protestant church.

But the blood of Irish freedom fighters run's very deep, and scratch the surface of our beautiful country and there's still a seeping, festering wound unhealed and it'll never go away until we have a free and undivided 32 county Ireland.

But our path to that freedom now lies in peaceful & democratic means, it lies in the ballot box and not the Armalite.

.

I'm very disappointed to read the first half of your post there Mairt.
The last line there I agree with totally.
These guys are not the Waffen SS, they were a couple of Sappers from the RE for God's sake. They are not Cromwell reincarnated, they are jnot the Black and Tans, just a couple of squaddies from a unit that if anything will be involved in helping supply water, electricity and rebuilding work to help the Afghan people.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 09-03-2009 02:14PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I take it you will be resigning from the Irish defence Force then as they are also engaged in the killing fields of Afghanistan.

Good point, and one I thought about before posting.

But I largely agree with the deployment to Afghanistan, I believe the Taliban are truely evil. Just as evil as the gunmen who murdered these soldiers in N.I.

However there's a sizable number of people in this country who oppose Englands war in A'Stan & more recently Iraq. And while the British are not the war machine it once was here it has brought terror to other people's home's.

Anyway, I'm wandering about.

Needless to say, the murder of the two soldiers were pointless, needless and won't bring about peace in this country.

I've said this already, we all engaged in a peaceful & democratic peace process that I truely believe will bring peace to our people (nationalist and loyalist alike).

We've put our faith in the ballot box and thrown away the Armalite - and long may that last.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 09-03-2009 02:19PM

Duffers wrote: »

I'm very disappointed to read the first half of your post there Mairt.
The last line there I agree with totally.
These guys are not the Waffen SS, they were a couple of Sappers from the RE for God's sake. They are not Cromwell reincarnated, they are jnot the Black and Tans, just a couple of squaddies from a unit that if anything will be involved in helping supply water, electricity and rebuilding work to help the Afghan people.

You are talking about individuals, its heart breaking to see them murdered. They weren't even born when their forefathers commited the sin's of the past, but now the poor guys are paying for it.

Maybe I'm not making myself clear.

I hate the gunmen who done this, I hate the people who sent them on their murderous deed. And I hate Englands history in Ireland, I hate it that we have a festering wound which until Ireland is free and undivided will never heal.

But the path to freedom ISN'T with the gunman. Its through the peace process, and everyone must become involved or else there's a vacuum, and the devil loves a vacuum.

.

Fratton Fred · 09-03-2009 02:40PM

Mairt wrote: »

However there's a sizable number of people in this country who oppose Englands war in A'Stan & more recently Iraq. And while the British are not the war machine it once was here it has brought terror to other people's home's.

Good post Mairt.

One point of clarification because i think you are falling into a well used trap there. It is not the UK's war in Afghanistan, it is the UN's and one which Ireland is involved in, along with 26 other countries I believe. it is also one that I believe Ireland voted in favour of at the UN.

Why should the UK be held up as responsible just because they bit the bullet and are prepared to carry out the bidding of the UN?

TBH, any link between this incident and Afghanistan is just noise and almost an attempt to legitimise an act of cowardly violence.

As has been daid elsewhere, i hope the SAS get these scumbags before the police do, although i expect they are selling drugs out the back of their Q7 in Blanch as we speak.

Dyr · 09-03-2009 02:49PM

So you don't have a problem with murder squads once they're being paid for by the HM's government? :eek:

Fratton Fred · 09-03-2009 02:52PM

Bambi wrote: »

So you don't have a problem with murder squads once they're being paid for by the HM's government? :eek:

have you been reading an phoblacht again?

Dyr · 09-03-2009 02:58PM

Nope, This might make yo uncomfortable but you dont actually have to be a rampant provo to want to see your black ops brigade kept out of this islands future.

Biggins · 09-03-2009 02:58PM

Bambi wrote: »

So you don't have a problem with murder squads once they're being paid for by the HM's government? :eek:

To be fair:

One persons murder squads is to another persons main country army
One persons terrorist is to another's freedom fighter
One persons "occupied territory" is to another persons "democratic chosen alliance soil"

Its all semantics from whatever side of the fence your standing on and the propaganda that one wishes to spew forth in order to win others over.

At the end of the day, precious lives are lost in what clearly is a futile and unwanted, unwarranted abuse of human rights.

The rest of the country/island has moved on and these murdering thugs represent no one but themselves and their warped, out of date, undemocratic illegal actions.

Only those with violent actions in mind will keep regurgitating the garbage of the past - and the rest of the people want nothing to do with them.
The rest of the island if not long before, has in the last thirty years, kopped themselves on and saw that more was achieved in 5 years of talking than 30 years of bombs and bullets.

Its THAT simple!

Fratton Fred · 09-03-2009 03:02PM

Bambi wrote: »

Nope, This might make yo uncomfortable but you dont actually have to be a rampant provo to want to see your black ops brigade kept out of this islands future.

aahh, gotcha.

when someone lifts a gun to deliberately kill innocent and or unarmed people, they leave themselves to open to whatever is coming to them to be honest. ie loughgall, Gibralter etc.

midlandsmissus · 09-03-2009 03:12PM

Can I just say I totally disagree with the killings.

BUT the British army should get out of Northern Ireland. There is still alot of antagonism to be heard from them on a regular basis. They are far from sweet innocents.

The majority of Northern Ireland doesn't consider itself as part of the UK as it has it's own government. You will hear from the protestants "**** the queen what has she ever done for us"etc

And you'll find if you do anything up here, it's not considered part of the uk. When I was getting my driving licence for example I found out that England, Scotland and Wales have the one Driving licencing authority, while Northern Ireland have their own seperate one.

The british army should get out. But as Gerry Adams said: there are peaceful ways to go about this.

passive · 09-03-2009 03:13PM

Mairt wrote: »

You forget to mention that their unit, as part of the British war machine was deploying to the killing fields of Afghanistan [/I]

.

Mairt wrote: »

I largely agree with the deployment to Afghanistan, I believe the Taliban are truely evil.

:P

Fratton Fred · 09-03-2009 03:16PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Can I just say I totally disagree with the killings.

BUT the British army should get out of Northern Ireland. There is still alot of antagonism to be heard from them on a regular basis. They are far from sweet innocents.

The majority of Northern Ireland doesn't consider itself as part of the UK as it has it's own government. You will hear from the protestants "**** the queen what has she ever done for us"etc

And you'll find if you do anything up here, it's not considered part of the uk. When I was getting my driving licence for example I found out that England, Scotland and Wales have the one Driving licencing authority, while Northern Ireland have their own seperate one.

The british army should get out. But as Gerry Adams said: there are peaceful ways to go about this.

They also get free NHS prescriptions and £6bn in aid from england. **** the North tbh, they are a drain on Britain.

If the british Army pulled out tomorrow, there would be bloodshed in the north the likes of which have not been seen before.

If Ireland was serious about unification, it would do something about it, such as a decent army, but that doesn't look like happening in the near future.

prinz · 09-03-2009 03:27PM

Bambi wrote: »

So you don't have a problem with murder squads once they're being paid for by the HM's government? :eek:

The difference being Bambi, that the same scum who were happy to execute an unarmed 21 and 23 year old, are the very same crying to this and that court about police brutality, a corrupt legal system, the conditions of the prisons etc etc. I've seen and heard it time and time again. These pigs actually going all the way to Europe to protect their 'civil rights', what?? They deserve to be treated no better than what they did to two young squaddies. But have no fear if they ever are apprehended, they will be getting well taken care in case anyone would hurt their poor sensitivities and deny them satellite tv, or an a la carte menu.

Bullet is the fastest way. im sure gerry adams has a few friends in low places that would be happy to take care of this problem.

Dyr · 09-03-2009 03:27PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

aahh, gotcha.

when someone lifts a gun to deliberately kill innocent and or unarmed people, they leave themselves to open to whatever is coming to them to be honest. ie loughgall, Gibralter etc.

And Pat Finucane, and Rosemary Nelson...

midlandsmissus · 09-03-2009 03:39PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

They also get free NHS prescriptions and £6bn in aid from england. **** the North tbh, they are a drain on Britain.

If the british Army pulled out tomorrow, there would be bloodshed in the north the likes of which have not been seen before.

If Ireland was serious about unification, it would do something about it, such as a decent army, but that doesn't look like happening in the near future.

I respectfully disagree.

The british army was originally sent over to northern ireland to protect the catholics. Guess what happened? They were biased and assisted the protestants in murder, sectarianism and discrimination against the catholics, (and i am neither catholic nor protestant so am unbiased in my opinions).
The bloodshed was at its worst when the british army was roaming the streets. There is no need for them here.

prinz · 09-03-2009 03:59PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

There is no need for them here.

Well Saturday's events make it blatantly and painfully obvious that there IS a need for them there. (A) As the standing legitimate army of the United Kingdom, they have as much need and right to be there as the Irish Defence Forces have to be in the Curragh, Northern Ireland being an integral part of the U.K., and (B) You think that the army is out of place? What about the gun-toting murdering scum? There is no need for THEM anywhere. As you may have noticed the army were not posing any threat to anybody having pizza before being withdrawn from the North....... You say the Army has need to be in Northern Ireland, so let them leave - two young men left their lives behind.

prinz · 09-03-2009 04:04PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

The bloodshed was at its worst when the british army was roaming the streets.

Sorry?? Were the British Army bombing pubs, clubs, shops? Doling out punishment beatings? Kidnapping women and boys to be tortured and executed? Don't be ridiculous.

And it was the "IRA", who turned on the Army that brought the collusion etc down on their heads. The big brave courageous scum, who have to wear balaclavas to hide their faces, and bomb Army bands, killing off duty officers etc, and now execute a pair of young unarmed lads. Cowards.

prinz · 09-03-2009 04:09PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

(and i am neither catholic nor protestant so am unbiased in my opinions).

I am Catholic, and I can see cold-blooded murdering scum when I see it.

09-03-2009 04:14PM

prinz wrote: »

Sorry?? Were the British Army bombing pubs, clubs, shops? Doling out punishment beatings? Kidnapping women and boys to be tortured and executed? Don't be ridiculous.

And it was the "IRA", who turned on the Army that brought the collusion etc down on their heads. The big brave courageous scum, who have to wear balaclavas to hide their faces, and bomb Army bands, killing off duty officers etc, and now execute a pair of young unarmed lads. Cowards.

There is zero research and thought gone into that post.

anonymous_joe · 09-03-2009 04:16PM

Mairt wrote: »

You forget to mention that their unit, as part of the British war machine was deploying to the killing fields of Afghanistan - I'm reminded of the words from The Ballad of Joe McDonald..

"And you dare to call me a terrorist
While you look down your gun
When I think of all the deeds that you have done
You have plundered many nations, divided many lands
You have terrorized their peoples, you rule with an iron hand
And you brought this reign of terror to my land "

And finally to the oration given by Pearce over Rossa's grave..

""Life springs from death; and from the graves of patriot men and women spring living nations. The Defenders of this Realm have worked well in secret and in the open. They think that they have pacified Ireland. They think that they have purchased half of us and intimidated the other half. They think that they have foreseen everything, think that they have provided against everything; but, the fools, the fools, the fools! — They have left us our Fenian dead, and while Ireland holds these graves, Ireland unfree shall never be at peace."

My personal opinion is that these people (the gunmen) are murdering bastards who next week might decide to shoot dead a protestant man in front of his family, or throw a bomb into a protestant church.

But the blood of Irish freedom fighters run's very deep, and scratch the surface of our beautiful country and there's still a seeping, festering wound unhealed and it'll never go away until we have a free and undivided 32 county Ireland.

But our path to that freedom now lies in peaceful & democratic means, it lies in the ballot box and not the Armalite.

.

Thing is, much as I love Ireland (and I do) there was never a united Ireland until Britain conquered us and united us for us (even then we were too busy squabbling amongst ourselves too face our problems, it's like the recession :P).

Irish people have a right to their land, but when Britain planted the Scottish Protestants up North the most rebellious province in the entirety of these islands gained a large community. Those people have lived there for hundreds of years now, and they too have a right to those lands. In the same way that both the Israelis and the Palestinians have claims to the same land, so both groups up North have claims to the same land. It's not a situation that's going to change soon.

prinz · 09-03-2009 04:25PM

rarnes1 wrote: »

There is zero research and thought gone into that post.

Care to expand on that? As an honours law and politics graduate I take exception, (including a thesis based on extradition and in particular extra-ordinary rendition re Northern Ireland) so go figure yourself

midlandsmissus · 09-03-2009 04:28PM

prinz wrote: »

Sorry?? Were the British Army bombing pubs, clubs, shops? Doling out punishment beatings? Kidnapping women and boys to be tortured and executed? Don't be ridiculous.

And it was the "IRA", who turned on the Army that brought the collusion etc down on their heads. The big brave courageous scum, who have to wear balaclavas to hide their faces, and bomb Army bands, killing off duty officers etc, and now execute a pair of young unarmed lads. Cowards.

Did the British army shoot 27 innocent civilians who were on a peaceful March on Bloody Sunday? Yes.

Did the British army shoot 3 unarmed people in Gibralter, and lie about finding a bomb in their car to justify what they did? Yes.

Did the British army arrest 2000 people without trial during internment in the troubles, and only 100 of these were Protestants? Yes.

I'm not for a second sticking up for the I.R.A, everybody knows they started out as freedom fighters and turned into gangsters, intimidating everybody including their own communities, when the power went to their heads.
I know a catholic girl who was burned out of her house by the IRA, just because she had the gall to go for the same job as him.

But the British army were there at the height of the troubles, ANTAGONISING everyone, and stirring up s**t.
You don't have to physically place a bomb to be a cause of trouble. They were a HUGE part of the problem. My best friend's mother was taken away by the british army during the height of the troubles and intimidated and interrogated for 10 hours. She was 8 months pregnant and they showed her no sympathy. She was terrified.

I have no time for them.

zuroph · 09-03-2009 04:34PM

well as long as you dont shoot them, ur welcome to your opinion. just be aware, these scum are shooting them in your name.

prinz · 09-03-2009 04:40PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Did the British army shoot innocent civilians on Bloody Sunday? Yes.

Did the British army shoot 3 unarmed people in Gibralter, and lie about finding a bomb in their car to justify what they did? Yes.

I'm not for a second sticking up for the I.R.A, everybody knows they started out as freedom fighters and turned into gangsters, intimidating everybody including their own communities, when the power went to their heads.
I know a catholic girl who was burned out of her house by the IRA, just because she had the gall to go for the same job as him.

But the British army were there at the height of the troubles, ANTAGONISING everyone, and stirring up s**t.
You don't have to physically place a bomb to be a cause of trouble. They were a HUGE part of the problem. My best friend's mother was taken away by the british army during the height of the troubles and intimidated and interrogated for 10 hours. She was 8 months pregnant and they showed her no sympathy. She was terrified.

I have no time for them.

Was she shot and buried on a beach somewhere? If you read my posts I made clear that yes the elements within the British Army were involved in providing information, collusion, and actively aiding in some acts. However the number of people killed by the British Army is minute compared to the self-important scum on both sides who made private armies for their own ends. That said, the British Army has a right to be there. And I repeat myself, the killing of two soldiers at the weekend proved why they have to be there.

By the way a bomb was found in the car belonging to the scum in Gibraltar. I wonder if they had succeeded in detonating it at the changing of the guard ( ceremonial duties again with troops, armed but not loaded, and an army band who had nothing to do with Northern Ireland whatsoever ) killing god-knows how many soldiers and civilians ( as the changing of the guard is a tourist attraction in Gibraltar as in many other places ) would you be here using that as an example of terrorist scum? I doubt it. Thats called bias.

midlandsmissus · 09-03-2009 04:41PM

zuroph wrote: »

well as long as you dont shoot them, ur welcome to your opinion. just be aware, these scum are shooting them in your name.

They're not though. Nobody wants that. The majority of the catholics and protestants all agree that the paramilitaries, unionist and loyalist, are all scum.

Nodin · 09-03-2009 04:42PM

prinz wrote: »

Sorry?? Were the British Army bombing pubs, clubs, shops? Doling out punishment beatings? Kidnapping women and boys to be tortured and executed?

There was collusion with loyalists, the Dublin-Monaghan bombings....

prinz wrote: »

And it was the "IRA", who turned on the Army that brought the collusion etc down on their heads..

Forced them, did they? The poor dears.

zuroph · 09-03-2009 04:44PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

They're not though. Nobody wants that. The majority of the catholics and protestants all agree that the paramilitaries, unionist and loyalist, are all scum.

well they claim to be fighting for something none of us want them to get for us.

prinz · 09-03-2009 04:46PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Did the British army arrest 2000 people without trial during internment in the troubles, and only 100 of these were Protestants? Yes.
quote]

And ever think about how many lives that saved? A huge majority of those interned were involved in subversive activities. As far as I'm concerned being interned by the British Army is preferable to being murdered by one faction or another, or letting them loose on the streets to butcher other innocent people.

prinz · 09-03-2009 04:48PM

Nodin wrote: »

There was collusion with loyalists, the Dublin-Monaghan bombings....

Forced them, did they? The poor dears.

Yes collusion, as I pointed out myself. Congratulations.Good point, well made.

midlandsmissus · 09-03-2009 04:50PM

prinz wrote: »

By the way a bomb was found in the car belonging to the scum in Gibraltar. I wonder if they had succeeded in detonating it at the changing of the guard ( ceremonial duties again with troops, armed but not loaded, and an army band who had nothing to do with Northern Ireland whatsoever ) killing god-knows how many soldiers and civilians ( as the changing of the guard is a tourist attraction in Gibraltar as in many other places ) would you be here using that as an example of terrorist scum? I doubt it. Thats called bias.

You're completely wrong there. There was an inital cover up, during which the british army announced that they shot the individuals "after they found a massive explosive in the car"

The English government later admitted that there was NO EXPLOSIVES found at all. Look it up.

The European court of human rights ruled that it was an unlawful killing.

Get your facts right before you post.

And I'm not biased at all, as I stated before I have no reason to be, being neither catholic or protestant, I just state the facts as I see them, and that's what happened.

2 Dead several others shot outside Army base Antrim

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