Taxi driver protest

MOH · 06-03-2009 01:47PM

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Well then we just need a harder test full stop, but just because the only incidents you have had are with Irish drivers does not make my point any less valid

Again the need for a harder test is paramount. Sat Navs do not know the quickest route to every location or where the traffic blackspots to avoid are. You get this through local knowledge.

Of course no one can know every street, but alot of immigrant drivers cant even bring you to specific areas of dublin without direction and saying they have a sat nav is unacceptable as they are supposed to know. What happens if the sat nav breaks????

You'd raised an issue of immigrant drivers not knowing Dublin. I was pointing out there's plenty of Irish drivers who don't know Dublin, but in my personal experience they're less likely to try to make up for it with aids like a street atlas or satnav. Of course all drivers should have a general knowledge of where different areas of the city are, but since that's not the case, I'd rather they at least have some means of finding out.

From my experience, 2 or more people in the car means that if one is going to get sick, the other can ask the driver to pull over quickly, its hard to do this with a mouth full of vomit. And as alot of people on their own tend to sit in the back of Taxis, the drivers cant always see what is going on with them.

I'm not sure if I was sitting beside someone about to puke how I'd know they were going to? And if you've got two or more people in the car, at least one of them is going to be in the back so you still can't see what's going on. Plus you possibly have someone in the front distracting you from what they're doing.

Why do the last 3 cars in that picture have their hazard lights on?
No idea, you would have to ask them

[/quote]
I know driving with your hazards on is illegal in some jurisdictions. I can't find a reference for Ireland. At the very least it's bad driving practice, since it renders your indicators largely useless.

Would taxi drivers be in favour of a temporary cap on licences, followed by a preparation period of maybe 6 months, after which all taxi drivers have to pass an initial test, with another, stricter, test a couple of years on. And recertification on a regular (maybe 5 year) basis? And if you fail any of those tests, you're banned from taxiing, with no compensation, regardless of how long you've been in the business?

By the way, do you realise embedding your answers in red within a quote makes it very difficult to quote you in response?

godtabh · 06-03-2009 01:54PM

Taxipete29 wrote: »

The public require a Taxi service, its essential. I dont think thats in dispute. In order to provide that PUBLIC service operators, must be able to make money.

Im not saying Taxis should be subsidised, far from it but in order to provide essential services in the private sector where the Government controls the barriers to entry, operators must first be able to cover their costs and secondly be able to make a living.

That attitude just stinks of we are owed a living.

The engineering industry provides a publi service
same as accounting
same as nursing

All are under threat yet there hasnt been one call for a cap on the number of people been let in to the industry.

murphaph · 06-03-2009 02:29PM

Taxipete29 wrote: »

No you are complaining about the guards not enforcing the law and for years every learner in the country flouted the law because it was accpetable and not enforced. If a law is not enforced then it will over time become accepted. Thas a fact, doesnt mean I agree with it

No, I was highlighting that years and years of seeing taximen breaking every rule of the road going when they are supposed to be professional drivers has helped erode any real public support taximen might have had. You broaght the guards into it and started blaming them for the illegal actions of taximen.

Taxipete29 · 06-03-2009 02:33PM

kearnsr wrote: »

That attitude just stinks of we are owed a living.

The engineering industry provides a publi service
same as accounting
same as nursing

All are under threat yet there hasnt been one call for a cap on the number of people been let in to the industry.

Look i have said numerous times I dont feel Im owed a living, Im willing to work hard for my money, but there is a difference between working hard and just pissing into the wind.

There is a cap in these people entering the industry, companies and the HSE arent hiring them

Taxipete29 · 06-03-2009 02:42PM

Jip wrote: »

Eh, I didn't get an answer. Should every other industry where jobs are being lost have a cap on the number of people allowed to work in that industry ?

Actually being lost now, not an industry like yours where it's now just harder to do as little work for maximum profit that you enjoyed for so many years.

There is a cap, the companies are not hiring people, thats a cap.

Most drivers didnt enjoy maximum profits for years, most drivers enjoyed a wage which was comparable with the average industrial wage. You forget that if a driver turns over €1000 a week that is not his wage. He/she has to pay for their car/maintenance/insurance/ NCTs/Radio rental and of course the mast important thing of all fuel, which has been rising in cost at a far higher rate than taxi prices have.

Your problem like so many posters here is that you are bitter towards Taxi drivers as you see them as beneath you, yet for a long time they earned a comparitively decent wage without having to posses any major qualifacations, now that we arent earning a decent wage and are complaining about it your delighted and quite happy to see us all squirm. If thats the case fine, just admit it. Dont try to make out your against a cap because it goes against the principles of the free market economy. Be honest.

Im honest, i feel their needs to be a cap and reform in the industry so that genuine taxi drivers like myself can earn a proper wage

Taxipete29 · 06-03-2009 02:45PM

murphaph wrote: »

Tell them what? Not to drive in a bus lane while not carrying a fare paying passenger? They know well this is illegal but as has been done to death and is WELL KNOWN, taxi drivers regularly do this sort of thing and get away with it. They'd not get away with it with the Met or PSNI, just our amateur Gardai, so they do-just another reason why the public will never support bleating taxi drivers.

You brought the gardai into the argument right here as marked in bold. I was simply responding to what you said. Dont blame me because you cant put together a cohesive argument.

Taxipete29 · 06-03-2009 02:53PM

MOH wrote: »

You'd raised an issue of immigrant drivers not knowing Dublin. I was pointing out there's plenty of Irish drivers who don't know Dublin, but in my personal experience they're less likely to try to make up for it with aids like a street atlas or satnav. Of course all drivers should have a general knowledge of where different areas of the city are, but since that's not the case, I'd rather they at least have some means of finding out.

I'm not sure if I was sitting beside someone about to puke how I'd know they were going to? And if you've got two or more people in the car, at least one of them is going to be in the back so you still can't see what's going on. Plus you possibly have someone in the front distracting you from what they're doing.

I know driving with your hazards on is illegal in some jurisdictions. I can't find a reference for Ireland. At the very least it's bad driving practice, since it renders your indicators largely useless.

Would taxi drivers be in favour of a temporary cap on licences, followed by a preparation period of maybe 6 months, after which all taxi drivers have to pass an initial test, with another, stricter, test a couple of years on. And recertification on a regular (maybe 5 year) basis? And if you fail any of those tests, you're banned from taxiing, with no compensation, regardless of how long you've been in the business?

By the way, do you realise embedding your answers in red within a quote makes it very difficult to quote you in response?[/QUOTE]

Ok i wont embed my response here.

1, I agree not all drivers know what they should know about the city, both Irish and immigrant. That just solidifies the point that we need a much harder test.

2, They were my reasons for being less likely to pick up someone on their own. If you worked in the industry you would understand this. Im not going to keep on about this one as I feel its not really applicable anymore given the state of the industry and availablity of taxis.

3, Im not sure about the legality of it, but I know you must have them on if your towing someone or driving slow for a mechanical reason to indiacte people should pass you.

4, I would be in favour of this to a certain degree, but the government would have to refund the licence fee to drivers who get kicked out.This would be a legal requirement I would imagine as I doubt the courts would accept otherwise if a case was brought, which it surely would

murphaph · 06-03-2009 02:53PM

Taxipete29 wrote: »

if a driver turns over €1000 a week that is not his wage. He/she has to pay for their car/maintenance/insurance/ NCTs/Radio rental and of course the mast important thing of all fuel

You forgot one thing...Income Tax!

The baying mob can draw their own conclusions from that ommission, an honest mistake I'm sure.

Taxi drivers seem to view themselves as employees or something. You are businessmen who took a business risk and now you feel that risk has not paid off well enough. Lots of businesses fail, MOST new businesses fail. You are just another business and the government will not cap licences ever again. They should improve standards but not cap licences under any circumstances. Economics will take care of supply and demand. A taxi driver can at least walk away from his business with relatively small debts or no debts at all. Many businessmen will have their businesses fail and will be saddled with their debt for years. That's their risk. They don't protest looking for artificial caps in their numbers.

Jip · 06-03-2009 02:57PM

Taxipete29 wrote: »

There is a cap, the companies are not hiring people, thats a cap.

Don't be riduculous, your argument is riddled with holes and you've basically shown it for what it is with that quote.

There's no cap, end of. People aren't prevented attempting to get jobs in that industry nor are they stopped from training or studying in that area. They just have to compete harder to get the jobs.

Now to use your logic in the same industry what you would want to happen is that people are actually prevented from even trying to get a job in that industry in order to keep it cushy for those already in there and artificially protect their jobs.

Taxi drivers such as yourself just don't want this competition, you just want to limit the amount of drivers so that those remaining can keep the work to themselves in order to artificially create a market for yourselves in order to create a false economy.

F, much try harder. Don't try push your persecution complex onto me. You chose your profession, you live with the good times and bad. When things go balls up don't whinge and look to be bailed out.

Im honest, i feel their needs to be a cap and reform in the industry so that genuine taxi drivers like myself can earn a proper wage

So you're now finally admitting what the public know, it's nothing to do with standards.

godtabh · 06-03-2009 03:06PM

Taxipete29 wrote: »

There is a cap in these people entering the industry, companies and the HSE arent hiring them

that isnt a cap. Thats supply and demand levelling things out. People will still enter the industry. Some will drop out.

When the dot com boom went the numbers for CS courses dropped alot. People were not restricted from doing the coures they just had cop on.

Same thing will happen in engineering this year.

MOH · 06-03-2009 04:02PM

Taxipete29 wrote: »

4, I would be in favour of this to a certain degree, but the government would have to refund the licence fee to drivers who get kicked out.This would be a legal requirement I would imagine as I doubt the courts would accept otherwise if a case was brought, which it surely would

Is the license fee a one-off? If so I think a partial refund on a sliding scale - full refund for someone who's just paid it, much less for someone who paid it 8 years ago and has had the benefit for those years.

Put it another way: if a cap was brought in, with those or similar conditions, would you accept it if it turned out that there was a chance you yourself ended up being expelled?

Taxipete29 · 06-03-2009 04:18PM

Jip wrote: »

Don't be riduculous, your argument is riddled with holes and you've basically shown it for what it is with that quote.

There's no cap, end of. People aren't prevented attempting to get jobs in that industry nor are they stopped from training or studying in that area. They just have to compete harder to get the jobs.

Now to use your logic in the same industry what you would want to happen is that people are actually prevented from even trying to get a job in that industry in order to keep it cushy for those already in there and artificially protect their jobs.

Taxi drivers such as yourself just don't want this competition, you just want to limit the amount of drivers so that those remaining can keep the work to themselves in order to artificially create a market for yourselves in order to create a false economy.

F, much try harder. Don't try push your persecution complex onto me. You chose your profession, you live with the good times and bad. When things go balls up don't whinge and look to be bailed out.

So you're now finally admitting what the public know, it's nothing to do with standards.

So reform has nothing to do with standards?, it never ceases to amaze how blinkered people like yourself only answer the parts of my argument that suits and dont comment on the sections they know they are wrong in.

When are you free-market/ no regulation people going to realise that that experiment has failed and failed miserably in this industry. The reason it has failed and will never succeed is because of a little thing called social responsibility. The Government have a social responsibiltity to reform the industry for both the public and the drivers.

There will be a moratorium put on licences, I guarantee it and if I am wrong so be it, I will come on here and apologise, but I am honest enough in my convictions to say that. Doubt any of you can say the same and its not a persacution complex becasue I really dont care what people think of me on an internet forum. What I do care about is people spouting nonsense about the free-market and in the next breath referring to drivers as "a stain on society" ( not you, but others). This only re-affirms my belief that you just dont like taxi drivers and it has nothing to do with if you feel we are right or not.

If there is a cap put in place in the morning there will still be more than enough taxis to meet demand even if the economy rebounds. 15k in dublin and there will always be drivers retiring/dying and just getting out so how will capping create any sort of "cosy cartel". The answer is it wont.

My argument is not full of holes at all and I dont see where you get that from, you are an armchair economist that thinks the free market is the only way forward in all industries and its not, as it fails to recognise socail responsibility and as I said earlier in the example of dublin bus.

Spook_ie · 06-03-2009 04:22PM

murphaph wrote: »

Tell them what? Not to drive in a bus lane while not carrying a fare paying passenger? They know well this is illegal but as has been done to death and is WELL KNOWN, taxi drivers regularly do this sort of thing and get away with it. They'd not get away with it with the Met or PSNI, just our amateur Gardai, so they do-just another reason why the public will never support bleating taxi drivers.

Is it the Gardai or the taxi drivers you should be complaining about?

Taxipete29 · 06-03-2009 04:23PM

MOH wrote: »

Is the license fee a one-off? If so I think a partial refund on a sliding scale - full refund for someone who's just paid it, much less for someone who paid it 8 years ago and has had the benefit for those years.

Put it another way: if a cap was brought in, with those or similar conditions, would you accept it if it turned out that there was a chance you yourself ended up being expelled?

Yes I would because Im confident in my abilities as a driver and with my knowledge of the city that I would pass such a test.

The licence fee is a one off, however it is renewed every year at the cost of €125. I think your sliding scale idea is a good one as I reckon older drivers would be better prepared for a tougher test anyway so would have less to fear from a tougher test. This idea could really work in pratice.

Spook_ie · 06-03-2009 04:29PM

MOH wrote: »

The only problems I've ever had with drivers not knowing where places are has been with Irish drivers:
- not knowing O'Dwyer's, or Mount Street, or Merrion Square;
- going past the Malahide Road, up the Howth Road, and back along Collins Ave to get to Donnycarney;
- driving around for 20 minutes trying to find Pembroke Lane;

I've actually no problem with a driver not knowing where a particular street is - no one's going to know all of them. But most of the immigrant drivers I've had have SatNavs, so at least they've some chance of finding the place. The Irish drivers I've had problems with are the ones who are too cheap to even shell out €12 for a street atlas of Dublin.

You give out about people making generalisations about taxi drivers, then come out with this?! And how is one person on a Saturday night more likely to get sick than four?

Why do the last 3 cars in that picture have their hazard lights on?

Because we were instructed by the Gardai to have them on, why else? they weren't broken down or stopped for anything other than traffic lights /junctions or gardai instructions.....

Spook_ie · 06-03-2009 04:37PM

murphaph wrote: »

If (and it's a big if given the very low turnaout for the protest yesterday) there is a huge number of 'professional' taximen who want the part-timers and 'toe-dippers' out of the industry then there is a clear financial incentive for you 'professional' drivers to unilaterally opt for a common colour scheme to identify yourselves as 'professional' taxi drivers. The part timers and toe dippers will baulk at the idea of turning their private/family car into a shade of beige like Germany and will pull back from making that commitment that you professional drivers are prepared to make. If there are enough professional drivers out there who adopt the colour scheme, it will become a brand very rapidly and people will look for that colour car when hailing a cab. They will be suspicious of the 'un branded' cars with just a roof sign. Branding is very important. Why wait for the inneffective regulator when you can all get together and do this for yourselves. Those who don't will suffer from being unbranded.

Interesting idea, but how will you prevent scammers from just deciding to change the color of their cars so they can carry on scamming, surely you should actualy endevour to have a 100% professional service by regulation and if required capping of plates while measures/discussions are in place to acheive this. Many suggestions are/have been put forward to both TRs office and transport minister alike, it gets to the stage where you feel that you may as well talk to a brickwall and if a brickwall is in the way of acheiving redevelopment you hit the wall with a hammer and if the 1st hammer doesn't work you get a bigger hammer........we haven't even past the lump hammer stage yet!!

paulm17781 · 06-03-2009 04:42PM

Taxipete29 wrote: »

What I do care about is people spouting nonsense about the free-market and in the next breath referring to drivers as "a stain on society" ( not you, but others). This only re-affirms my belief that you just dont like taxi drivers and it has nothing to do with if you feel we are right or not.

pamul17781 wrote:

Keep up your whinging and keep being a stain on society, yes as long as you have an attitude of "shout until I get what I want" you are a stain on society.

Where did I refer to taxi drivers as a stain on society? I said you with that attitude and the people like you are a stain on society. I never mentioned taxi drivers. Yet you say you don't have a persecution complex.

Funnily enough, while reading that thread I also found this

paulm17781 wrote:

This whole strike is quite futile. I guarantee on Thursday the media will report it as you wanting a cap on licenses

Oh look, that's what happened.

Did you see the thread on who supports the taxi drivers? Oh look, less than 10%.

Continue whinging.

worker1265 · 06-03-2009 04:42PM

2qk4u wrote: »

Why is it a problem for you that taxi drivers made a good living ?
Taxi drivers have to pay tax or no licence.
Taxi fares are calculated on the meter, if you dont want to pay the fare then dont get in a taxi.
I suppose you are a model citizen ?

no cap on electricians in ireland. no pay between jobs.
no cap on plumbers in ireland. no pay between jobs.
no cap on G.O.'s in ireland. no pay between jobs.
no cap on Painter's in ireland. no pay between jobs.
no cap on engineer's in ireland. no pay between jobs.
no cap on majority of industries in ireland. no pay between jobs.
TAXI Drivers can go and take a running jump, selfish narrow people.

Most workers around looking for work are only getting offered €10ph.
GO's sweat their arses off for €15ph
Hard working people every where in Dublin earn between €9 low skill to and €20 ph for the very skilled.
Taxi drivers cost us workers €60ph to use, thats why you have no work.
Fares need to be €15/ph and then Taxi drivers will have more work.

The regulator must be smoking something if he thinks the fares are fair.

Spook_ie · 06-03-2009 04:51PM

murphaph wrote: »

No, I was highlighting that years and years of seeing taximen breaking every rule of the road going when they are supposed to be professional drivers has helped erode any real public support taximen might have had. You broaght the guards into it and started blaming them for the illegal actions of taximen.

being the notional NN on this thread I'll tell you something I've noticed...

70-75% of Irish Drivers haven't a clue how to drive safely/curteously or efficiently therefore it would be a logical assumption to think that 70-75% of taxi drivers are just the same. Maybe it's actualy time to ditch the Irish License and make all holders of Irish Licenses sit a proper EU test.

In fact that sounds like an even better idea as I think about it, as it would remove 75% of the cars and taxis from the road, forcing people onto public transport, reducing the spend on road infrastructure, allowing for a reallocation to public transport (bus/rail/taxi), more space for cyclits ( keep the Greens happy ), a reduction in the traffic gardai ( you wouldn't need as many as they would only need to maintain checkpoints to keep non licensed drivers off the road ) I like the thoughts, must speak to my green TD!!

murphaph · 06-03-2009 04:51PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

Is it the Gardai or the taxi drivers you should be complaining about?

Whomsoever is breaking the law. Laws aren't there to be broken when there's no guard about. The laws are there for the good of society. Taxi drivers regularly use bus lanes when they're not supposed to so why would I blame the gardai for the actions of the driver? The failures of the gardai are a seperate issue and one that needs addressing, but it doesn't absolve illegal behaviour by taxi drivers. I'm amazed the pair of you are still trying to blame the guards for illegal driving by taximen.

murphaph · 06-03-2009 04:55PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

Interesting idea, but how will you prevent scammers from just deciding to change the color of their cars so they can carry on scamming

What scammers? I thought the problem you guys was too many licences?

paulm17781 · 06-03-2009 04:58PM

What's a G.O. (as I prepare to be embarrassed at how obvious it is.

)?

murphaph · 06-03-2009 04:59PM

General Operative?

Spook_ie · 06-03-2009 05:03PM

murphaph wrote: »

You forgot one thing...Income Tax!

The baying mob can draw their own conclusions from that ommission, an honest mistake I'm sure.

Taxi drivers seem to view themselves as employees or something. You are businessmen who took a business risk and now you feel that risk has not paid off well enough. Lots of businesses fail, MOST new businesses fail. You are just another business and the government will not cap licences ever again. They should improve standards but not cap licences under any circumstances. Economics will take care of supply and demand. A taxi driver can at least walk away from his business with relatively small debts or no debts at all. Many businessmen will have their businesses fail and will be saddled with their debt for years. That's their risk. They don't protest looking for artificial caps in their numbers.

One of the major problems that's allowing a low level of professionalism, surely it would be better to cap the plates and restructure the industry from the ground up. Remove the transferability of plates ( no gain if fees are increased ), raise the price to €20,000 ( straight into government coffers ), pay any driver wanting to get out of the industry the €6500 ( an incentive to remove some of the scammers ) value of a current plate, review and regulate the hiring out of taxis and plates ( I could hire out my car to you on a basis of you pay me €200 and no questions asked, as the hire side is self regulated and we all know what a f-up self regulation is ) there are lots of ideas for improving the industry BUT and this is what TDFC is about the 1st step is a temporary moritorium on plate numbers....

Taxipete29 · 06-03-2009 05:05PM

worker1265 wrote: »

no cap on electricians in ireland. no pay between jobs.
no cap on plumbers in ireland. no pay between jobs.
no cap on G.O.'s in ireland. no pay between jobs.
no cap on Painter's in ireland. no pay between jobs.
no cap on engineer's in ireland. no pay between jobs.
no cap on majority of industries in ireland. no pay between jobs.
TAXI Drivers can go and take a running jump, selfish narrow people.

Most workers around looking for work are only getting offered €10ph.
GO's sweat their arses off for €15ph
Hard working people every where in Dublin earn between €9 low skill to and €20 ph for the very skilled.
Taxi drivers cost us workers €60ph to use, thats why you have no work.
Fares need to be €15/ph and then Taxi drivers will have more work.

The regulator must be smoking something if he thinks the fares are fair.

I think your smoking something if you think that anyone could afford to run a taxi for 15ph. You seem to forget that taxi drivers only turnover that €60 ph if they always have a fare in the car. This almost never happens. We are lucky to turnover €10ph. This dont forget is only turnover, not wages. Most drivers are lucky if their earnings after expenses are €3 ph.

paulm17781 · 06-03-2009 05:08PM

Taxipete29 wrote: »

I think your smoking something if you think that anyone could afford to run a taxi for 15ph. You seem to forget that taxi drivers only turnover that €60 ph if they always have a fare in the car. This almost never happens. We are lucky to turnover €10ph. This dont forget is only turnover, not wages. Most drivers are lucky if their earnings after expenses are €3 ph.

It was €4 last week.

murphaph · 06-03-2009 05:24PM

paulm17781 wrote: »

It was €4 last week.

it must be all the extra licences issued in the last 7 days.

Spook_ie · 06-03-2009 05:26PM

worker1265 wrote: »

no cap on electricians in ireland. no pay between jobs.
no cap on plumbers in ireland. no pay between jobs.
no cap on G.O.'s in ireland. no pay between jobs.
no cap on Painter's in ireland. no pay between jobs.
no cap on engineer's in ireland. no pay between jobs.
no cap on majority of industries in ireland. no pay between jobs.
TAXI Drivers can go and take a running jump, selfish narrow people.

Most workers around looking for work are only getting offered €10ph.
GO's sweat their arses off for €15ph
Hard working people every where in Dublin earn between €9 low skill to and €20 ph for the very skilled.
Taxi drivers cost us workers €60ph to use, thats why you have no work.
Fares need to be €15/ph and then Taxi drivers will have more work.

The regulator must be smoking something if he thinks the fares are fair.

Other than the SELF EMPLOYED ( an awful lot of plumbers /painters / plasterers etc. would have been PAYE as they worked for someone) all of them are entitled to Social Welfare between jobs, single entity painters etc. would have been much more akin to taxi drivers as they wouldn't get paid between jobs, in fact exactly like taxi drivers as I don't get paid between jobs, in fact if I had 2 X 20 min ( some nights I wish it were that busy ) fares in 2 hours then I earned €20 per hour out of which I would have to pay running expenses and then income tax/ PRSI on the remaining profit.....

Spook_ie · 06-03-2009 05:29PM

murphaph wrote: »

Whomsoever is breaking the law. Laws aren't there to be broken when there's no guard about. The laws are there for the good of society. Taxi drivers regularly use bus lanes when they're not supposed to so why would I blame the gardai for the actions of the driver? The failures of the gardai are a seperate issue and one that needs addressing, but it doesn't absolve illegal behaviour by taxi drivers. I'm amazed the pair of you are still trying to blame the guards for illegal driving by taximen.

I'm not, in fact I'm encouraging you to report any wrong doings by taxi drivers and private drivers alike, maybe then I might feel safer when driving your kids home at night and not have to worry about who's going to break the next red light

Taxipete29 · 06-03-2009 05:37PM

paulm17781 wrote: »

It was €4 last week.

I find it very ironic that none of these threads are ever started by drivers, but by people whinging about drivers whinging. It seems to be a fact that the public do more whinging about taxi drivers, than taxi drivers do about the need for industry reform.

Taxi driver protest

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