Liverpool squad/keeper/spending comparison thread [read post #161]

Boggles · 03-03-2009 10:01AM

kida wrote: »

Interesting no pool fans responded to my point yesterday that both of the trophies he won came predominately with Houlliers players, Champions League had only 1 Benitez signing in starting 11 and FA Cup had only 4.

This is the most telling statisitc of all. That "his" team has not won anything.

It is an interesting point, shoots down the theory that Rafa inherited a ****é squad.

Since the last time he won a trophy he has spent in excess of 135 million in the past 2 and a half years.

Boggles · 03-03-2009 10:11AM

eagle eye wrote: »

Did none of them play in the finals?

I couldn't be bothered to check because I'm certain they did.

You might be certain because he told you in his post they did, read it again.

kida · 03-03-2009 10:13AM

eagle eye wrote: »

First I'm not a pool fan.

As far as I'm aware he bought players when he arrived at Liverpool. Did none of these play in them seasons?
Did none of them play in the finals?

I couldn't be bothered to check because I'm certain they did.

Only Alonso played CL,
Reina,Alonso,Crouch and Sissoko played Fa Cup. 2 of which have left and 1 he tried to sell.

spockety · 03-03-2009 10:15AM

Boggles wrote: »

It is an interesting point, shoots down the theory that Rafa inherited a ****é squad.

Or conversely, it shows that he is an outstanding manager, given that the team he inherited did not win a Champions League the previous seasons under a different manager, but when he came along they did.

a) Squad X + Houllier = No Champions League
b) Squad X + Benitez = Champions League Winners 2005

Spot the difference between a), and b) folks.

Mitch Connor · 03-03-2009 10:20AM

spockety wrote: »

Or conversely, it shows that he is an outstanding manager, given that the team he inherited did not win a Champions League the previous seasons under a different manager, but when he came along they did.

a) Squad X + Houllier = No Champions League
b) Squad X + Benitez = Champions League Winners 2005

Spot the difference between a), and b) folks.

Oh Oh oh - 1 extra year training together?

eagle eye · 03-03-2009 10:31AM

kida wrote: »

Only Alonso played CL,
Reina,Alonso,Crouch and Sissoko played Fa Cup. 2 of which have left and 1 he tried to sell.

In the Champions League Alonso and Garcia both started. Thats 2 in the Champions League final.

In the Fa Cup final, Reina, Alonso, Sissoko and Crouch all started. Morientes and Kromkamp both came on as subs.

Whether he sold them or tried to sell them since is irrelevant.

kida · 03-03-2009 10:35AM

eagle eye wrote: »

In the Champions League Alonso and Garcia both started. Thats 2 in the Champions League final.

In the Fa Cup final, Reina, Alonso, Sissoko and Crouch all started. Morientes and Kromkamp both came on as subs.

Whether he sold them or tried to sell them since is irrelevant.

ok missed Garcia but my point remains the same

LuckyLloyd · 03-03-2009 10:39AM

kida wrote: »

Interesting no pool fans responded to my point yesterday that both of the trophies he won came predominately with Houlliers players, Champions League had only 1 Benitez signing in starting 11 and FA Cup had only 4.

This is the most telling statisitc of all. That "his" team has not won anything.

Boggles wrote: »

It is an interesting point, shoots down the theory that Rafa inherited a ****é squad.

Since the last time he won a trophy he has spent in excess of 135 million in the past 2 and a half years.

lol. Alonso and Luis Garcia were pretty good in that Champions League campaign.

And his team reached a final two years later, and extra time in a semi - final the year after that, indicating that it is Benitez's good coaching - not Houllier's players - that are the key reason for Liverpool's success in Europe since 2005.

Mitch Connor · 03-03-2009 10:42AM

Would it not raise the question on whether the squad actually needed the complete overhaul Rafa has put it through, and whether it has been as succesful as it should have been?

mayordenis · 03-03-2009 10:42AM

kida wrote: »

ok missed Garcia but my point remains the same

not really, he's then gone to another final with a side he has created and there's nothing to say he won't go one step better this year, with a team like

reina, arbeloa, carra, skrtel, aurelio, kuyt, alonso, masch, riera, gerrard, torres. which is also more or less the side that came within minutes of a final last year.

your point is basically he has assembled an inferior squad to the one he inherited?

While silverware is the only real tangable meter for rating a team against another, nobody who knows anything about football would honestly argue that liverpools first team squad are worse off than they were in 05. There's actually a massive gulf.

Would you be someone by any chance who would say liverpool ere lucky to win the CL in 05?

kida · 03-03-2009 10:46AM

mayordenis wrote: »

not really, he's then gone to another final with a side he has created and there's nothing to say he won't go one step better this year, with a team like

reina, arbeloa, carra, skrtel, aurelio, kuyt, alonso, masch, riera, gerrard, torres. which is also more or less the side that came within minutes of a final last year.

your point is basically he has assembled an inferior squad to the one he inherited?

While silverware is the only real tangable meter for rating a team against another, nobody who knows anything about football would honestly argue that liverpools first team squad are worse off than they were in 05. There's actually a massive gulf.

Would you be someone by any chance who would say liverpool ere lucky to win the CL in 05?

The FACT remains that he was more succesful with players he inherited so maybe the players he had were not that bad or in actual fact that the current squad is not as good as rose tinted pool fans would lead people to believe.

LuckyLloyd · 03-03-2009 10:50AM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Would it not raise the question on whether the squad actually needed the complete overhaul Rafa has put it through, and whether it has been as succesful as it should have been?

Not at all. That Liverpool squad had no business being anywhere near a Champions League final in terms of the talent it contained on paper. Universal consensus amongst bookies and football traders before the knockout stages began in February 2005 was that they were rank outsiders to win the competition behind the likes of Bayer Leverkusen (who Liverpool dispatched comfortably) or Inter (who got stomped on by AC Milan in the Quarter Finals). Benitez got them to achieve way over and above the sum of their parts for that one year. The likes of Biscan and (yes - credit where credit is due) Traore probably played the best football of their entire careers in some of the games from that run.

But they weren't going to be able to be at that level consistently and, as such, they needed to be replaced.

LuckyLloyd · 03-03-2009 10:53AM

kida wrote: »

The FACT remains that he was more succesful with players he inherited so maybe the players he had were not that bad or in actual fact that the current squad is not as good as rose tinted pool fans would lead people to believe.

lol. Another FACT that is going to be worth looking at is the points tally of the Liverpool team when this premiership campaign is finished as compared to the point tally amassed in May 2005.

Boggles · 03-03-2009 10:59AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

lol. Another FACT that is going to be worth looking at is the points tally of the Liverpool team when this premiership campaign is finished as compared to the point tally amassed in May 2005.

Blah points tally is a convienent way to pretend a team is improving, when other teams are improving around you, it is position in the league that is the vital and true gauge. Benitez has been up and down in the league, with Arsenal, United and Villa to play yet this season, it could well be another 4th again or the unthinkable 5th.

kida · 03-03-2009 11:10AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

lol. Another FACT that is going to be worth looking at is the points tally of the Liverpool team when this premiership campaign is finished as compared to the point tally amassed in May 2005.

based on current form that will be an interesting FACT

LuckyLloyd · 03-03-2009 11:32AM

Boggles wrote: »

Blah points tally is a convienent way to pretend a team is improving, when other teams are improving around you, it is position in the league that is the vital and true gauge. Benitez has been up and down in the league, with Arsenal, United and Villa to play yet this season, it could well be another 4th again or the unthinkable 5th.

What? That's some funny logic. So, if a team garners 7 more points over the course of the season yet doesn't improve their league position they haven't improved? :rolleyes:

No sir, they have improved. Maybe not by as much as their main rivals - but they are nonetheless a better team. If Liverpool improve by 7 - 10 points and still finish fourth, it will speak for the extreme difficulty of winning the premiership at the moment - however it shall not be an argument for Liverpool having gone backwards. lol.

Mitch Connor · 03-03-2009 11:34AM

`7 extra points can be gained by other teams having poorer seasons as easily as liveprool having improved.

MementoMori · 03-03-2009 11:37AM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Would it not raise the question on whether the squad actually needed the complete overhaul Rafa has put it through, and whether it has been as succesful as it should have been?

Just a list of the players who were part of the squad that won the CL in 2005 and the price received for them when they were sold.

Gerrard
Hyypia
Alonso
Carragher
Baros 6.5
Cisse 6
Riise 4
Garcia 4
Carson 3.25
Kirkland 3
Traore 2
Josemi 2
Finnan 2
Warnock 1.5
Nuñez 1.5
Le Tallec 1
Mellor 0.5
Diao 0
Biscan 0
Smicer 0
Kewell 0
Henchoz 0
Hamann 0
Dudek 0

Total : £37.25m Average per player £1,862,500

While some of the poor amounts received may be down to contracts running out/injuries, it's clear that we did not do well in terms of cashing in on these CL winners.

Clearly the purpose of LFC isn't to make money in terms of selling players on.

However the prices received clearly give a very clear pointer in terms of the quality of the squad. Even if we had gotten decent selling prices for a number of the players, they were still a number of players in there who were not up to the challenge of fighting for a title

Does anyone believe that a squad containing Nuñez, Le Tallec, Mellor, Diao,
Biscan, Traore and Josemi even only as bit part players would have any serious hope of challenging for a title?

eagle eye · 03-03-2009 11:38AM

To all the Man U fans arguing about Benitez I ask you these questions.

Should Alex Ferguson have been sacked pre 1993?

Should he have been sacked the season United finished 11th?

If not why not?

Does Benitez deserve the same amount of time that was given to Ferguson?

If not why not?

Mitch Connor · 03-03-2009 11:42AM

I want Rafa to stay - i just take issue with his lies.

slingerz · 03-03-2009 01:24PM

whatawaster wrote: »

unlikely to happen though is it?

We also probably need another central midfielder, with Gerrard now essentially a second striker.

Raul Abidol is supposedly being lined up for £13 million.

A defensive midfielder.

FFS.

Did Benitez ever think that it might be an idea to score goals as well as stopping the other team from scoring

Unearthly · 03-03-2009 01:30PM

eagle eye wrote: »

To all the Man U fans arguing about Benitez I ask you these questions.

Should Alex Ferguson have been sacked pre 1993?

Should he have been sacked the season United finished 11th?

If not why not?

Does Benitez deserve the same amount of time that was given to Ferguson?

If not why not?

If you are going to use Ferguson as the model, then should every manager in football be giving 7 years to achieve their targets?

~Rebel~ · 03-03-2009 01:40PM

slingerz wrote: »

Raul Abidol is supposedly being lined up for £13 million.

A defensive midfielder.

FFS.

Did Benitez ever think that it might be an idea to score goals as well as stopping the other team from scoring

Thats misinformation really, he's a CB first, DMF second. if he comes in it will be to replace Agger

eagle eye · 03-03-2009 01:42PM

Unearthly wrote: »

If you are going to use Ferguson as the model, then should every manager in football be giving 7 years to achieve their targets?

If you win a Champion's League and an FA Cup I think you should. But are you going to answer the question or just question the question?

themont85 · 03-03-2009 04:09PM

Benitez is a great tactican. Thats why Liverpool do well in the CL, he's a big game manager.

But I would question his ability to sign a player. His record is farily poor, he has signed a few beauties but the amount of wasted 8 to 10 million signings he's had would make you question his scouts/signings imo. Now he wants full control of signings? I'm not suprised Liverpool were reluctant to him full control.

He is a good manager though.

MementoMori · 03-03-2009 05:07PM

themont85 wrote: »

But I would question his ability to sign a player. His record is farily poor, he has signed a few beauties but the amount of wasted 8 to 10 million signings he's had would make you question his scouts/signings imo. Now he wants full control of signings? I'm not suprised Liverpool were reluctant to him full control.

Honesty have you read the thread?

I've listed below all of the players that Rafa has purchased that fall anywhere near the "8 to 10 million" price level of wasted signings that you mention. The reason while I went outside the quoted "8 to 10 million" price level, will rather quickly become clear.

Daniel Agger £5.8m - Clearly a successful buy
Pepe Reina £6m - Clearly a successful buy
Martin Škrtel £6m - Clearly a successful buy
Xabi Alonso £10.7m - Clearly a successful buy

Yossi Benayoun £5m - has been inconsistent in patches but had definitely been of value to the team.

Albert Riera £8m - has generally done ok - hasn’t been pulling up any trees but hasn’t been an embarrassment either.

Dirk Kuyt £9m - even if you’re not a fan, you would have to concede that he has been of value. Also if he were sold LFC would expect to recoup a large portion of the £9m and even possibly more.

Andrea Dossena £6m - Jury is still out; at the very worst likely to recoup a substantial portion of the fee if sold

Lucas £6m - Jury is still out; at the very worst likely to recoup a substantial portion if sold

Ryan Babel £11.5m - Jury very much out on Babel after this season, would hope to recoup a fairly large portion of his fee if he was sold given his age and potential

Luis Garcia £6m £4m - at a net cost of £2m was clearly a good buy

Momo Sissoko £5.6m £8.2m - given how congested the midfield was turning a profit of £2.6m was decent work

Crouch £7m £11m - Clearly he wanted to move and wasn’t happy with a place on the bench - Profit of £4m was not a shabby return

Craig Bellamy £6.5m £7.5m - Would have been nice to have been able to hang on to him but needed the funds to buy Torres - still managed to turn a profit

Mark Gonzalez £4.5m £4.2m - didn’t work out but only ended up costing £300k

Morientes £6.3m £3m - clearly didn’t work out

Jermaine Pennant £6.7m £0m - clearly didn’t work out

So of Rafa’s purchases in or around the price you are talking about only two can be clearly considered bad buys at this point in time.

There are a number of others who could yet go one way or the other - Lucas, Dossena, Babel but even in those cases there is a pretty decent likelihood a good portion of the fee paid for them will be recouped.

Overall Rafa has signed very little in the way of outright flops at anywhere near the prices you are suggesting.

I would recommend you check back through the thread and look at the sort of prices LFC got for the players that Rafa bought and subsequently sold and compare it with the type of prices LFC got for the players Rafa inherited.

Combine that with the fact that he has picked up a number of gems at relatively cheap prices along with the fact that even his most expensive signing looks like a massive bargain, I find it hard to see why Liverpool would not be willing to give him full control over spending the transfer budget.

Would you still agree with your statement that

the amount of wasted 8 to 10 million signings he's had would make you question his scouts/signings

The statement is especially funny given Rafa has only signed two players - Kuyt and Riera who actually within the price range of £8m to £10 million.

Would you still question his ability to sign a player, on this basis?

redout · 03-03-2009 05:21PM

Unearthly wrote: »

If you are going to use Ferguson as the model, then should every manager in football be giving 7 years to achieve their targets?

Benitez was in management since the mid 80's, mid 90's with top sides. Never won until 2002 when he went to Valencia ! He must be a slow starter so. Fergie picked up his first silverware after just three years with St. Mirren then won a bucket load with Aberdeen breaking the old firm and winning a European final against Real Madrid before moving to Man Utd.

eagle eye · 03-03-2009 05:52PM

redout wrote: »

Benitez was in management since the mid 80's, mid 90's with top sides. Never won until 2002 when he went to Valencia ! He must be a slow starter so. Fergie picked up his first silverware after just three years with St. Mirren then won a bucket load with Aberdeen breaking the old firm and winning a European final against Real Madrid before moving to Man Utd.

Now in all fairness you are talking about his management at Real Madrid but not with Real Madrid's senior squad. So basically you are talking through your backside.

Why don't you answer the questions I asked earlier on, rather than come up with dross like the above.

Mr.Nice Guy · 03-03-2009 07:32PM

eagle eye wrote:

To all the Man U fans arguing about Benitez I ask you these questions.

Should Alex Ferguson have been sacked pre 1993?

Should he have been sacked the season United finished 11th?

If not why not?

Nope. Ferguson had the task of not just transforming United's fortunes but the culture of the club itself. The likes of McGrath and Whiteside, great though they were, embodied a poisonous drinking culture that was not conducive towards success.

Thus United were right to stick with Fergie because his task was to change United from top to bottom which required time.

eagle eye wrote:

Does Benitez deserve the same amount of time that was given to Ferguson?

If not why not?

Benitez took over a side from Houllier which already had the foundations there for success. He did not face anywhere near the grave challenges behind the scenes that Fergie did. Pool had the groundwork there thanks to Houllier. Even Carragher has said one of the teams he played in, which I think finished second, was the best team he'd played with.

That to me is the big difference. It puzzles me how Liverpool fans can compare Rafa's situation to Fergie's when the team Fergie took over needed massive transformation in terms of not just staff but the actual mindset of the team.

eagle eye · 03-03-2009 09:02PM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Nope. Ferguson had the task of not just transforming United's fortunes but the culture of the club itself. The likes of McGrath and Whiteside, great though they were, embodied a poisonous drinking culture that was not conducive towards success.

Thus United were right to stick with Fergie because his task was to change United from top to bottom which required time.

Ferguson took over a team which had finished second the season before he came. Yes I know they got off to a bad start in 86. You name McGrath and Whiteside, thats two out of a hugely talented panel. He got rid of the drinkers very quickly, but still in 1990 they finished 13th in the league. Thats four year after his arrival. Going back to 86, If my memory serves me right he had two talented full backs in Albiston and Duxbury, a decent keeper in Gary Bailey, Kevin Moran at Centre Half, Bryan Robson in midfield, Gordon Strachan, Jesper Olsen and Frank Stapleton. I'm sure I'm forgetting others but these were all top class players back then. He inherited a fantastic panel of players.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Benitez took over a side from Houllier which already had the foundations there for success. He did not face anywhere near the grave challenges behind the scenes that Fergie did. Pool had the groundwork there thanks to Houllier. Even Carragher has said one of the teams he played in, which I think finished second, was the best team he'd played with.

That to me is the big difference. It puzzles me how Liverpool fans can compare Rafa's situation to Fergie's when the team Fergie took over needed massive transformation in terms of not just staff but the actual mindset of the team.

There was a huge overhaul required at Liverpool. Do you expect us to believe that Liverpool sacked Houllier because everything was hunky dory? I don't think so.
As I said previously it can be argued that United had the groundwork laid but Ferguson chose to build a team the way he wanted it, Benitez is the same as Ferguson he likes to do things his way. His success at Valencia both with a team which had many of Cuper's players and then again later on with a team he built himself proves that he has what it takes.
Therfore imo he deserves the time to get the club running the way he wants it to run just like Ferguson got all the time in the world at United.

Liverpool squad/keeper/spending comparison thread [read post #161]

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