Liverpool squad/keeper/spending comparison thread [read post #161]

whatawaster · 02-03-2009 04:00PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Does nobody agree with me on the similarities between Ferguson in his early days at United and Benitez now at Chelsea?

it's impossible not to see many of the similarities.
Could you imagine the United fans in the early nineties when Fergie had been there 5 or 6 years and not delivered the title. Imagine this forum had been running then?

eagle eye · 02-03-2009 04:07PM

Well no point in editing now as you all quoted it for future reference.:D

Boggles · 02-03-2009 04:12PM

Long time ago, there maybe simalarities, but in these times there arn't applicaple.

You don't actually have to go back far or step outside Liverpool FC to find a better similarity, Benitez reign has been alot like Houlier, actually if Rafa ends up with squat this season, it would have to argued that Houlier on the same time frame with less spent has been more successful than the Spaniard.

astrofool · 02-03-2009 04:19PM

You'd be very surprised if Utd's squad didn't cost more than Liverpool's, it's been put together over a longer timeframe, and Utd have been pulling in the highest revenue of all English clubs for years, all Liverpool's buys bar Hyppia have been after Benitez took over, and that's discounting all the players bought and sold.

Liverpool have had a problem for years in nurturing attacking talent, Torres bucked that trend, but Collymore, Heskey, Cisse, Voronin, Keane, Bellamy (+ others i'm sure) have all come and been pushed out the door, it makes it very costly, both in terms of money paid, and in success on the pitch, when players don't settle at the club that well.

eagle eye · 02-03-2009 04:23PM

Boggles wrote: »

Long time ago, there maybe simalarities, but in these times there arn't applicaple.

You don't actually have to go back far or step outside Liverpool FC to find a better similarity, Benitez reign has been alot like Houlier, actually if Rafa ends up with squat this season, it would have to argued that Houlier on the same time frame with less spent has been more successful than the Spaniard.

Well I outlined what imo are the similarities on the previous page.

I mean United's big problem in the years before they won the title was a lack of goals and too many draws where they should have won. It could be argued that it was just luck that they won the title in 93. That luck being the falling out at Leeds between Wilkinson and Cantona and his subsequent sale to United for a paltry 1 million which was a real surprise at the time.

United won the title convincingly that season but if Cantona had never arrived who knows how it would have gone.

I really think Liverpool and Benitez are very close to taking on United, and I'm talking about two attacking players away from it.

Boggles · 02-03-2009 04:27PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Well I outlined what imo are the similarities on the previous page.

I mean United's big problem in the years before they won the title was a lack of goals and too many draws where they should have won. It could be argued that it was just luck that they won the title in 93. That luck being the falling out at Leeds between Wilkinson and Cantona and his subsequent sale to United for a paltry 1 million which was a real surprise at the time.

United won the title convincingly that season but if Cantona had never arrived who knows how it would have gone.

I really think Liverpool and Benitez are very close to taking on United, and I'm talking about two attacking players away from it.

Ifs and Buts and over simplification, the team that wins the league more often than not deserves it.

Liverpool will never win the league, trying to the build the team solely around Gerrard.

whatawaster · 02-03-2009 04:31PM

Boggles wrote: »

Ifs and Buts and over simplification, the team that wins the league more often than not deserves it.

Liverpool will never win the league, trying to the build the team solely around Gerrard.

how are we building the team around Gerrard any more than United build there team around Ronaldo, Arsenal around Fabregas etc etc etc. It's simply that we don't have as many quality players as United, but Rafa isn't actively trying to make us a one-man team. We were a one-man team when he took over, but we have amassed some pretty impressive results without him this season.

Boggles · 02-03-2009 04:32PM

whatawaster wrote: »

but we have amassed some pretty impressive results without him this season.

Thats my point, the team can play and have showed they can play without Gerrard, when Gerrard is in the team and does not perform there is no plan B.

whatawaster · 02-03-2009 04:47PM

Boggles wrote: »

Thats my point, the team can play and have showed they can play without Gerrard, when Gerrard is in the team and does not perform there is no plan B.

i think it's just that we have so few players who have the skill to breakdown packed defences, rather than the team being built around Stevie. Gerrard and Torres spring to mind. After that? Benayoun . . . Riera . . .

I am, i must confess, a little upset that i will be asking Rafa for the same thing this summer as i did last - an out and out winger, and a wing-forward type player.
I think Riera's poor form over the last couple of week's has been very unfortunate timing, as he does have a little bit of trickery about him. Rubbish in the last couple of games, but i've definitely seen enough of him to suggest he's a more than adequate squad-member for a title-challenging or even title-winning side. It's absolutely essential that we address the positions in our best starting XI where we have such players - should be squad players but we are too reliant on them at the moment. They are, i think, in order -
- Riera
- Kuyt
- Arbeloa
- Aurelio (though he's been very good any time he's been fit for an extended period of time)

The first three positions 100% need to be addressed in the summer. Rafa SHOULD have more than 30 million to spend in the summer before any sales (not holding my breath though) given his paltry net spend this year, so three quality players for those positions could be attainable. Maybe a full back in the 7-10 million range, a 15m winger or wing-forward and a 10m winger or wing forward.

Left back i would be happy to leave as is. Insua should step up and become first choice. Dossena will probably be sold.

Boggles · 02-03-2009 04:59PM

Considering Gerrards preferred position is off the striker, I would have liked to seen this lineup with Keane in the team at the start of the year.

Keane

Torres

Reira

Gerrard

Alonso

Mash

This would have involved 2 no' no's, Stevie playing on the right (which he can do quite well, but is on record as saying he hates it) and Rafa dropping Kuyt.

Personally from what I have seen of Reira he is a one trick poney, looks very uninterested at times, and apart from a couple of good performances he does look distinctly average.

The problem is a complete lack of quality wingers at the moment, maybe Silva, can play on left, would cost 25m plus the cost of a top quality strike partner for Torres.

whatawaster · 02-03-2009 05:09PM

Boggles wrote: »

Considering Gerrards preferred position is off the striker, I would have liked to seen this lineup with Keane in the team at the start of the year.
Keane
Torres

Reira
Gerrard
Alonso
Mash

This would have involved 2 no' no's, Stevie playing on the right (which he can do quite well, but is on record as saying he hates it) and Rafa dropping Kuyt.

Personally from what I have seen of Reira he is a one trick poney, looks very uninterested at times, and apart from a couple of good performances he does look distinctly average.

The problem is a complete lack of quality wingers at the moment, maybe Silva, can play on left, would cost 25m plus the cost of a top quality strike partner for Torres.

there'll be no quality striker partner for Torres brough in i don't think, but rather someone who can directly replace him if he were injured. Perhaps Babel will step into that role. He has looked good there in flashes (ie: away to Chelsea. Even with his erratic first touch he would be a decent option up there. I think, for example, he could be better than Agbonlahor, and people would probably be overjoyed if he was our backup striker) I don't go along with the need for us to ever play a 442, even against the Stoke's, Fulhams etc. We will hopefully have Nemeth available for next season. He's not a dissimilar player to Robbie Keane, and i think he can one day be just as good. The difference is, he's young and will settle for a bit-part role in the short term anyway.

PS, i would like to see Gerrard on the right more too, but i think you get the best out of Torres in a 4231

Boggles · 02-03-2009 05:18PM

whatawaster wrote: »

there'll be no quality striker partner for Torres brough in i don't think, but rather someone who can directly replace him if he were injured. Perhaps Babel will step into that role. He has looked good there in flashes (ie: away to Chelsea. Even with his erratic first touch he would be a decent option up there. I think, for example, he could be better than Agbonlahor, and people would probably be overjoyed if he was our backup striker) I don't go along with the need for us to ever play a 442, even against the Stoke's, Fulhams etc. We will hopefully have Nemeth available for next season. He's not a dissimilar player to Robbie Keane, and i think he can one day be just as good. The difference is, he's young and will settle for a bit-part role in the short term anyway.

Babel will be sold in the summer, he is one of the few players that Liverpool can cash in on.

Realistically the chances are Nemeth will be a failure.

eagle eye · 02-03-2009 05:28PM

Boggles wrote: »

Ifs and Buts and over simplification, the team that wins the league more often than not deserves it.

Liverpool will never win the league, trying to the build the team solely around Gerrard.

What on earth are you talking about?

Ifs and buts were clearly the case with United in Ferguson's early years. He won a title after Cantona joined the team. Cantana provided that missing link between the players and scored many important goals from nothing. Give Liverpool their Cantona right now and they become the best team in the Premier League, it is that simple. Their defense is impressive, their central midfield is impressive, they are just short an attacking option which allows them to beat the lesser teams. Thats one or two players at most that they require.

whatawaster · 02-03-2009 05:34PM

Boggles wrote: »

Realistically the chances are Nemeth will be a failure.

have you ever seen him play?

Boggles · 02-03-2009 05:36PM

whatawaster wrote: »

have you ever seen him play?

No. But that's not why I am saying the chances are he will be a failure more than a success.

He has never been tested at any sort of level approaching the premeir league. It is impossible to make a judgement call on him, statistically thou he is more likely to fail at Liverpool than succeed.

PHB · 02-03-2009 05:39PM

MementoMori wrote: »

Overall the striking thing is that even though Utd have five (arguably six) first-team squad members, as well as another five or six fringe/squad players who look up to Premier League standard compared to the miserable Liverpool’s two players who have come through the youth system, Utd’s squad cost an utter minimum of £75m and possibly pushing up in the region of £100m more to assemble than Liverpool’s. By rights there shouldn’t really have been any sort of title race whatsoever.

Excellent post. It just misses one key point. That Benetiz has wasted nearly the difference through failed purchases and sales.

whatawaster · 02-03-2009 05:46PM

PHB wrote: »

Excellent post. It just misses one key point. That Benetiz has wasted nearly the difference through failed purchases and sales.

not really true. Bellamy and Crouch were sold at a profit. Morientes and Keane both got significant returns on their fees.

he hasn't wasted nearly as much money as people think. His total spend is 81 million. Reina (7.5), Arbeloa (2.5), Skrtel (6.5), Agger (6), mascherano (17), Torres (20), Alonso (10.5) and Kuyt (9) equal 80 million.

The rest has been wheeling and dealing unfortunately, with varying degrees of success. We'd have loved to have been able to keep Crouch, Bellamy and Sissoko as squad players. But the reality was we couldn't afford to keep them and strengthen our squad at the same time.

Boggles · 02-03-2009 06:10PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Give Liverpool their Cantona right now and they become the best team in the Premier League, it is that simple.

So Liverpool in your opinion are one player short of being the best in the league?

kida · 02-03-2009 06:11PM

A key point many a Liverpool fan is missing is the time it takes for a player to fail a successful player could have been contributing

Also in this time wages, signing on fees and also a leaving fee(if the player doesn't ask for a transfer) has to factored in,. For example Morientes cost 6.5M and reportedly left for 3M. I would guess that his stay cost a lot more than 3.5M.

whatawaster · 02-03-2009 06:15PM

Boggles wrote: »

So Liverpool in your opinion are one player short of being the best in the league?

clearly not, but one world class winger and Torres and Gerrard staying fit could have been the difference this season between our challenging derailing as it has, and it not. I don't think our squad is even as good as Chelsea's. But we're level on points with them.

whatawaster · 02-03-2009 06:16PM

kida wrote: »

A key point many a Liverpool fan is missing is the time it takes for a player to fail a successful player could have been contributing

Also in this time wages, signing on fees and also a leaving fee(if the player doesn't ask for a transfer) has to factored in,. For example Morientes cost 6.5M and reportedly left for 3M. I would guess that his stay cost a lot more than 3.5M.

you've reminded me of another oft-overlooked fact. Our wage bill is, i believe, significantly lower than United's and Chelseas. Another area where we have to struggle to compete.

slingerz · 02-03-2009 06:31PM

2 wide attacking players of notable quality and a quality left back are what is required. I said Arshavin would be good before Arsenal got him and at 12M wasnt exactly over priced. Player sales are not whats needed whats needed is roughly 60M in terms of investment with no outgoing sales.

whatawaster · 02-03-2009 06:36PM

slingerz wrote: »

Player sales are not whats needed whats needed is roughly 60M in terms of investment with no outgoing sales.

unlikely to happen though is it?

We also probably need another central midfielder, with Gerrard now essentially a second striker.

MementoMori · 02-03-2009 06:38PM

PHB wrote: »

Excellent post. It just misses one key point. That Benetiz has wasted nearly the difference through failed purchases and sales.

I have to disagree - in terms of missing the point - the problem hasnt been Rafa's purchases and sales. It has been in the fact that the squad he had to dispose of was not very good and the prices received reflected that.

Looking on those players who Rafa has both bought and sold during his time at Liverpool we have the following

Luis Garcia £6m £4m
Antonio Nunez £0m £1.5m
Josemi £2m Kronkamp
Kronkamp £0m £2m
Morientes £6.3m £3m
Scott Carson £.75m £3.25
Zenden £0m £0m
Antonio Barragan £0m £680,000
Mark Gonzalez £4.5m £4.2m
Momo Sissoko £5.6m £8.2m
Crouch £7m £11m
Craig Bellamy £6m £7.5m
Paletta £2m £1.5m
Jermaine Pennant £6.7m £0m
Robbie Keane £19m £16m

Net Cost £3,020,000

There is also the fact that LFC got a fee from Villa for Carson's loan - I'm pretty sure this was a million and there was talk of £500k from Portsmouth as a loan fee.

The arguement that Rafa has wasted a large amount of money on a number of flops clearly just isn't true.

The only negative net players are Pennant, Keane, Morientes, Gonzalez, Paletta and Garcia. Of those Pennant, Keane and Morientes are unquestionable flops in the financial sense. Gonzalez ended up only costing
£300k and Paletta £500k while with Garcia it was more a case of the player's age. Given the net cost of £2m you would have to classify him as a major success at the club.

So where was the problem?

Answer - the squad inherited and the subsequent prices received for them

2004
Markus Babbel £0m - in a sense very unlucky with his illness
Danny Murphy £2.5m - Looks like a poor price now
Michael Owen £8m - Coco the clown :mad: - deal done before Rafa arrived
Emile Heskey £6.25m - Looks like a poor price now

2005
Pellegrino £0m - cost nothing, got nothing
Antonio Nunez £1.5m - legacy of the Owen deal more Coco the clown magic
Milan Baros £6.5m - looks a reasonable price
Diouf £4m - looks like a poor price now
Smicer £0m
Henchoz £0m
Alou Diarra £2m

2006
Kirkland £3m - Always thought we should have got more
Mellor £500k - Could have got more looks fair now though
Traore £2m - No commetn
Hamman £0 - shocking
Morientes £3m - probably fair
Cheyrou £0 - No comment

2007
Dudek £0 -

Zenden £0 -:(
Cisse £6m - doesnt look like we got value here - broken leg didnt help
Diao £0m - No comment
Warnock £1.5m - Looks like a bit of a bargain
Sinama-Pongolle £2.7m - Probably about fair

2008
Le Tallec £1m - Just glad to get anything
Kewell £0m -

Riise £4m - A decent price in a sale :eek:
Finnan £2m - Looks like a stroke of genius with his injury

Jeez just listing this is depressing.
So out of the players Rafa inherited we ended up receiving approx £57m
That averages out at just a smidge over £2m per player

:(:(:(

eagle eye · 02-03-2009 06:55PM

Boggles wrote: »

So Liverpool in your opinion are one player short of being the best in the league?

One or maybe two attacking players. Not your average run of the mill top pros either, they need another special player. Look at United they have Ronaldo and Rooney and Tevez three very special attacking players. Imo Tevez would be a great signing for Liverpool and might just be the player to ignite that team. Another player I'd like to see Liverpool go in for would be David Silva. Now if Liverpool could somehow get the funds to sign those two players I think its game on next season.

zing · 02-03-2009 07:34PM

MementoMori wrote: »

Michael Owen £8m - Coco the clown :mad: - deal done before Rafa arrived
Emile Heskey £6.25m - Looks like a poor price now

I think that comment about the deal being done before Rafa arrived is against the wrong player there.

Also I'm not sure if you're taking remaining periods on players contracts fully into account in relation to some of the comments you've made regarding monies received for some individual players. We all know a players value decreases a lot the more their contracts run down.

mormank · 02-03-2009 08:12PM

Boggles wrote: »

So Liverpool in your opinion are one player short of being the best in the league?

yes one player/ problem is that that player currently plays for utd!! u take ronnie out of the utd team and put him into liverpools and yes i think liverpool will thne be the best team in the league and would almost stroll to the title..rmembering that ronnie is so good at playing/scoring against the supposed weaker teams in the league, which is where liverpools title hopes were dashed this season

jesus_thats_gre · 02-03-2009 10:04PM

PHB wrote: »

Excellent post. It just misses one key point. That Benetiz has wasted nearly the difference through failed purchases and sales.

Benitez has bought and subsequently sold 16 or 17 players. He has made a total loss of 3 million. The figures used were based on the money handed over at the time of the player leaving, i.e. does not include subsequent money received through add ons. So in truth, he has actually made a profit on these..

That sort of counters your point, doesn't it?

Incidently, I have not replied to your post where you quoted me as it has been addressed in a better fashion than I ever would have been able to.

kida · 03-03-2009 09:36AM

Interesting no pool fans responded to my point yesterday that both of the trophies he won came predominately with Houlliers players, Champions League had only 1 Benitez signing in starting 11 and FA Cup had only 4.

This is the most telling statisitc of all. That "his" team has not won anything.

eagle eye · 03-03-2009 09:58AM

kida wrote: »

Interesting no pool fans responded to my point yesterday that both of the trophies he won came predominately with Houlliers players, Champions League had only 1 Benitez signing in starting 11 and FA Cup had only 4.

This is the most telling statisitc of all. That "his" team has not won anything.

First I'm not a pool fan.

As far as I'm aware he bought players when he arrived at Liverpool. Did none of these play in them seasons?
Did none of them play in the finals?

I couldn't be bothered to check because I'm certain they did.

Liverpool squad/keeper/spending comparison thread [read post #161]

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