I'm so angry. Why should the Irish have to clean up other's mess

walshb · 03-03-2009 11:55AM

thelordofcheese wrote: »

because if everyone thought like that, nothing would happen. Everyone would just shrug their shoulder and say "not my problem". And thats a shitty attitude to have.

But everyone isn't thinking like that. Just here, some are saying it's a measly amount, what's the problem. So, if it's a measly amount, why bother?

I doubt the U.S folks are saying that they are sending a measly amount.

Maybe 2 million is measly to some, but when the Irish
govt are increasing tax, cutting med cards, introducing
1 percent income levies and all the rest, then it is clear
to me that we, as a nation, cannot bloody afford to be so 'measly' with our money.

2 million to Israel this is. It's not to Palestine. It's going towards the continued
fund for Israel to keep on destroying

wes · 03-03-2009 12:03PM

Well, the money probably won't end up going to the people of Gaza, due to the siege by Israel (with collusion from the EU, US and Egypt). So, I will have to agree with people here, the money is a complete waste and probably won't even get to help anybody.

Now, if we really wanted to help, we would pressure the EU to stop colluding in the siege of Gaza. This would be infinetly more helpful than the 2 million being given.

Now, I have no issue with giving people money as long as it actually reachs them and help them, but the chances are, the money will never reach Gaza, so its a bit pointless.

jimmy-jazz · 03-03-2009 12:05PM

walshb wrote: »

And what's wrong with that. I don't think we are really.

WE both agree that immediate problems have to be met; I just think that a long
term solution is never going to be found if WE constantly IGNORE the issue and constantly
throw money at the problem

absolutely nothing wrong with it. i think we can agree that the situation needs to be tackled in a manner that doesn't neglect either aspect of the problem.

thelordofcheese · 03-03-2009 12:06PM

walshb wrote: »

But everyone isn't thinking like that. Just here some are saying it's a measly amount, what's the problem. So, if it's a measly amount, why bother?

Wow..... i'm actually stunned....

Let me put it to you this way, lets say i'm collecting for a charity to, say, help homeless people in ireland. Now, if you walk by me collecting and only have 70c in your pocket.

Do you put it in the tin anyway, knowing that while it's "a measly amount" that it, coupled with money from other people will ammount to a significant figure, or do you just wander on reasoning that your 70c on it's own is too little to matter and then congratulate yourself on the worst reasoning ever?

ejmaztec · 03-03-2009 12:14PM

I don't think that the donation's anything to do with charity, but everything to do with cheap advertising. It probably reminds largely muslim states that they can do business with a country that helps their down-trodden brothers in Gaza.

This is FF after all. :rolleyes:

walshb · 03-03-2009 12:20PM

jimmy-jazz wrote: »

absolutely nothing wrong with it. i think we can agree that the situation needs to be tackled in a manner that doesn't neglect either aspect of the problem.

Definitely; but HISTORY has told us that the long term fix is clearly being avoided and NOT
tackled. And the throwing of money has been constant over the years.

It's about TIME the WORLD got serious. The bottom line is that Israel are not only affecting Palestine, but the whole world suffers in some way because we are having
to pay for their recklessness. The ripple affects are the issue. As far as I am concerned, the Israelis are stealing money from my pocket and I don't like it

I understand that Israel has to protect its people; but they have been engaged in OVER KILL and OVER DESTRUCTION
for far too long

walshb · 03-03-2009 12:30PM

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Wow..... i'm actually stunned....

Let me put it to you this way, lets say i'm collecting for a charity to, say, help homeless people in ireland. Now, if you walk by me collecting and only have 70c in your pocket.

Do you put it in the tin anyway, knowing that while it's "a measly amount" that it, coupled with money from other people will ammount to a significant figure, or do you just wander on reasoning that your 70c on it's own is too little to matter and then congratulate yourself on the worst reasoning ever?

Mate, OUR 2 million is going to Israel; that's my bloody point. It's going to their continued
bombing and destruction of Palestine. That's what it is ultimately funding. Folks don't wanna' admit this.

To use your analogy; it's like giving to a charity to help the homeless and that charity is
using the money to decorate their members homes, not build new homes for the homeless. Israel is the charity, we, the donors and Palestine, the homeless!

thelordofcheese · 03-03-2009 12:59PM

walshb wrote: »

Mate, OUR 2 million is going to Israel; that's my bloody point. It's going to their continued
bombing and destruction of Palestine. That's what it is ultimately funding. Folks don't wanna' admit this.

To use your analogy; it's like giving to a charity to help the homeless and that charity is
using the money to decorate their members homes, not build new homes for the homeless. Israel is the charity, we, the donors and Palestine, the homeless!

My bad, my english must be getting rusty when "donating to palestine" actually means that we're buying bombs for Israel.

How silly of me.

walshb · 03-03-2009 01:01PM

thelordofcheese wrote: »

My bad, my english must be getting rusty when "donating to palestine" actually means that we're buying bombs for Israel.

How silly of me.

Yes, how silly of you not to see the mentality of it all. It is
allowing the continued bombing. That's the point that is LOST on you. Think outside the box. Why should Israel ever consider STOPPING, when they know we and the rest of the world are footing the bill for their destruction?

Yes, your bad english

ShooterSF · 03-03-2009 01:12PM

Not reading the whole thread, blood boiling. I hope this was already mentioned: There are plenty of charities out there if one wants to give aid to foreign nations. So stop sending it, cut taxes and let each individual decide what they'd like to do with the money. If people are happy to give foreign aid nothing'll change if theyre not at least your not forcing your beliefs on others, win-win.
:mad:

inforfun · 03-03-2009 01:12PM

luckat wrote: »

So the thugs from two streets away go and burn down a house in the next street, we shouldn't offer some small help to build a new house for those people? We should say "Ah, they brought it on themselves" and "the thugs should pay - they burnt it down"?

I know we're in trouble, but when we say we're too poor to put our hand in our pocket to help someone in shít worse trouble, then we should have no pride in ourselves at all.

Thug family A burns down thug Family B's home.
Now, are you going to help thug family B rebuilt there home?

Nodin · 03-03-2009 01:12PM

walshb wrote: »

Yes, how silly of you not to see the mentality of it all. It is
allowing the continued bombing. That's the point that is LOST on you. Think outside the box. Why should Israel ever consider STOPPING, when they know we and the rest of the world are footing the bill for their destruction?

So why would stopping the money make any difference? Are they going to suddenly give a crap about the people they've been slowly driving out over the last few decades?

thelordofcheese · 03-03-2009 01:30PM

walshb wrote: »

Yes, how silly of you not to see the mentality of it all. It is
allowing the continued bombing. That's the point that is LOST on you. Think outside the box. Why should Israel ever consider STOPPING, when they know we and the rest of the world are footing the bill for their destruction?

Yes, your bad english

The point isn't lost on me, i have considered your theory and have found it lacking in merit and i'm treating it with the respect it deserves.

kf1920 · 03-03-2009 01:31PM

In one way this annoys me, we are in financial Difficulty, yet giving away money that could be used for our education system, or health. But then the other part of me thinks, Well we wasted how many million, on e-voting machines, a health service computer system that doesn't work. I would much prefer to see the fools in the Dail spend two million on helping some country in trouble that burning it on some waste of time project, that will overrun in cost and ultimately not work anyway.

pdb123 · 03-03-2009 01:36PM

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Wow..... i'm actually stunned....

Let me put it to you this way, lets say i'm collecting for a charity to, say, help homeless people in ireland. Now, if you walk by me collecting and only have 70c in your pocket.

Do you put it in the tin anyway, knowing that while it's "a measly amount" that it, coupled with money from other people will ammount to a significant figure, or do you just wander on reasoning that your 70c on it's own is too little to matter and then congratulate yourself on the worst reasoning ever?

No, but in the sameway, I don't give money to trocaire or concern as i know the money doesn't get to where its needed the most.

By all means give the 2 million to the people of gaza, but this money is going to end up in a slush fund that will never do anygood. As such I'd rather we set fire the money..

anonymous_joe · 03-03-2009 01:41PM

walshb wrote: »

Definitely; but HISTORY has told us that the long term fix is clearly being avoided and NOT
tackled. And the throwing of money has been constant over the years.

It's about TIME the WORLD got serious. The bottom line is that Israel are not only affecting Palestine, but the whole world suffers in some way because we are having
to pay for their recklessness. The ripple affects are the issue. As far as I am concerned, the Israelis are stealing money from my pocket and I don't like it

I understand that Israel has to protect its people; but they have been engaged in OVER KILL and OVER DESTRUCTION
for far too long

They're to blame for the recession alright. Not the sub-prime mortgage fiasco in America leading to unsustainable banking practices being caught out. The fúckers.

walshb wrote: »

Mate, OUR 2 million is going to Israel; that's my bloody point. It's going to their continued
bombing and destruction of Palestine. That's what it is ultimately funding. Folks don't wanna' admit this.

To use your analogy; it's like giving to a charity to help the homeless and that charity is
using the money to decorate their members homes, not build new homes for the homeless. Israel is the charity, we, the donors and Palestine, the homeless!

I'm just waiting for someone to mention the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I shuddered when I noticed someone had said 'the Jews' and not the Israelis.

Now let's make this clear - we're giving money to charity, we are not buying Israel bombs.

Secondly, Israel is not a nasty bully taking candy from a weak kid. Israel attacked a nation that for years has been firing rockets into Israel, frequently sent suicide bombers into Israel, has declared that all Jews should be wiped from the face of the earth, and so on.

Israel lamentably killed innocent civilians in the attacks, however, those same innocent civilians voted in people whom they knew would continue to attack Israel. I'm not justifying what Israel did, I think it was morally reprehensible, but from their perspective, the Palestinians voted in people who are against peace, and who want Israel destroyed.

Finally, and let's not talk about Palestine or Israel, how fúcking tight are some people? If I've money in my pocket and someone collecting for charity asks me for money, I give them some. I'm a student, I'm not rolling in cash, but I give them what I can. I don't go, 'sorry mate, I could give you €1 but y'know, I'm not sure I'd be able to buy a pint without it, so fúck off.'

Giving money to the less well off is one of the most laudable things our country does. Then again, I get the impression that some people posting here wouldn't give money to charity, because it'd eb wasted. :rolleyes:

walshb · 03-03-2009 01:47PM

anonymous_joe wrote: »

T

Finally, and let's not talk about Palestine or Israel, how fúcking tight are some people? If I've money in my pocket and someone collecting for charity asks me for money, I give them some. I'm a student, I'm not rolling in cash, but I give them what I can. I don't go, 'sorry mate, I could give you €1 but y'know, I'm not sure I'd be able to buy a pint without it, so fúck off.'

Giving money to the less well off is one of the most laudable things our country does. Then again, I get the impression that some people posting here wouldn't give money to charity, because it'd eb wasted. :rolleyes:

So, you JUST give without really taking the time to analyse what exactly you are giving to?

You say we aren't giving to Israel and I say that every time we contribute, we send the message that the bombs being used to destroy property and lives are being paid for.

They bomb and we build; how ****ing stupid is that?

And it's goin' on and on and on with no end in sight.

If that's your idea of giving to charity, god help us!

BTW, I am neither PRO Israel or Palestine; I am pro sense and pro justice and pro equality and the
continued throwing of money to rebuild a land that is being continually destroyed is absolute
criminal. Throwing bad money after bad money, and never actually tackling the problem

Fratton Fred · 03-03-2009 01:47PM

inforfun wrote: »

Thug family A burns down thug Family B's home.
Now, are you going to help thug family B rebuilt there home?

I certainly wouldn't want to see their kids out on the street that's for sure

Nodin · 03-03-2009 02:04PM

walshb wrote: »

You say we aren't giving to Israel and I say that every time we contribute, we send the message that the bombs being used to destroy property and lives are being paid for.

And for the second time, what makes you think stopping will make any difference?

walshb · 03-03-2009 02:09PM

Nodin wrote: »

And for the second time, what makes you think stopping will make any difference?

Well, it's worth a shot, because up to now, giving has DONE **** all but prolong the destruction. What is needed is for the WORLD to get tough and not accept
that Israel can use such powerful and unnecessary FORCE. They need to be really strong and firm with Israel, defence is needed, but absolute destruction is NOT on.

Nodin · 03-03-2009 02:23PM

walshb wrote: »

Well, it's worth a shot, .

Why, or how, would cutting aid to Israels targets give Israel any pause whatsoever?

wes · 03-03-2009 02:28PM

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Israel lamentably killed innocent civilians in the attacks, however, those same innocent civilians voted in people whom they knew would continue to attack Israel. I'm not justifying what Israel did, I think it was morally reprehensible, but from their perspective, the Palestinians voted in people who are against peace, and who want Israel destroyed.

Didn't Israeli's just elect a far right government that is openly against peace? Hell, even the government before, were hardly pro-peace, considering all the colonies Israel had built, when the they were in power. Of course, the fact that colonization is clear act of aggression is ignored for some strange reason. Israel is as much an aggressor in this conflict, especially when one considers it is a state founded on the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous population.

Also, didn't they elect Ariel Sharon, who even Israels own investigation into the Sabra and Shatila masscres, said he had a personal resposibility for the massacres.

Seems odd to me that the Israeli's vote in some pretty damn vile people, but its so often ignored.

walshb · 03-03-2009 02:39PM

Nodin wrote: »

Why, or how, would cutting aid to Israels targets give Israel any pause whatsoever?

Did I say to simply cut aid and do nothing else. I did say for the WORLD to get tough.
That means to take serious action.

Nodin · 03-03-2009 02:44PM

walshb wrote: »

Did I say to simply cut aid and do nothing else. I did say for the WORLD to get tough.
That means to take serious action.

And between beginning taking 'serious action' and its (hopefully) successful conclusion, what of the Palestinians in the interim?

walshb · 03-03-2009 02:58PM

Nodin wrote: »

And between beginning taking 'serious action' and its (hopefully) successful conclusion, what of the Palestinians in the interim?

Well, if you read back thru my posts you will see that I have said that immediate
problems need sorting.

Anyway, the real question is about Ireland and its ability to be paying 2 million into this hole. As far as I am aware, we are being told that this country is in serious difficulty and that we need to tighten up. So, sorry Mr Palestinian; but the bigger and more financially well off countries are going to have to help you out this time. Itś not like we here have not done anything. We have given into this hole for years and years

Does anyone really think that Palestine cannot survive with the 4 billion it is already meant to be getting and that this 2 million will make all the difference. I would say the 2 million would be better spent here on services in this country than to be shipped into a bureaucratic hole, that is Palestine and Israel!

Nodin · 03-03-2009 03:19PM

walshb wrote: »

Well, if you read back thru my posts you will see that I have said that immediate
problems need sorting.!

The 2 million is towards very immediate problems.

walshb wrote: »

Anyway, the real question is about Ireland and its ability to be paying 2 million into this hole. As far as I am aware, we are being told that this country is in serious difficulty and that we need to tighten up.

Allow me to clarify something. Molloy, who was in charge during a number of cock-ups in FAS was paid 500,000. Sean Fitzpatrick, David Drumm, Dennis Casey and the rest will doubtless be paid larger sums, despite mismanagement, and allegations of fraud. The people who supposedly supervised them, including Gillian Bowler and the supposed 'official' regulator, and others in both Anglo Irish and Irish Life and permanent will not have to reimburse any of their salaries for the period of their governance. It is safe to say therefore that - conservatively - any 5 of these people are getting between them at least the same amount that we are giving to one million Gazans.

Were I you, I'd divert my outrage elsewhere.

thebman · 03-03-2009 03:40PM

We can't just cut foreign aid. What kind of message does that send? We have International obligations too.

It would also be hypocritical of us to not give aid to other countries in trouble while requesting other countries bail us out as we may do in the future.

Ireland is in trouble but it is manageable. We need to make intelligent cuts though to our own spending and not on foreign aid which we will most likely get back in trade anyway. We need to keep ourselves respected on an International level to encourage investment and trade with our country as we are so massively dependant on this being such a small country.

dresden8 · 03-03-2009 04:02PM

Has anyone considered how hard the Americans have it?

They fund and build the bombs and shells that destroy the Palestinians and their homes. Now Hilary is over there pledging the money to re-build Gaza.

The lunatics are in charge of the asylum.

Jesus Wept · 03-03-2009 04:06PM

Riddle101 wrote: »

Now I have as much sympathy as the next man for the plight of Gaza

Riddle101 wrote: »

TBH I think it's stupid that they have this devolopment fund for Gaza

dresden8 wrote: »

Now Hilary is over there pledging the money to re-build Gaza.

?

Ironbars · 03-03-2009 04:14PM

dresden8 wrote: »

Now Hilary is over there pledging the money to re-build Gaza.
.

I mentioned this earlier but this if you read the details of the pledge.
900m total

300m to gaza which is fair enough as its in bits

600m to the palestinian authority----they dont have anything to do with gaza!

So to cut to the chase the US is not giving 900m to build gaza but 300m and the other 600m is going to the west bank because the palestinian authority is nothing but western puppets. They have not once challenged Isreal on its continued theft of palestian water(will be worth more than gold to these people in the near future) through the jordan aquafers. This is just a bribe (palestinian authority are easy) to keep thier own people down.

So the western media shows its true colors again,

US gives 900million to help gaza, my arse.

I'm so angry. Why should the Irish have to clean up other's mess

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