Liverpool squad/keeper/spending comparison thread [read post #161]

Pigman III · 28-02-2009 07:48PM #1

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Tis a sad day when you are being damned for being happy with Champions League success. We have shown time and time again that we can compete with the best teams in the world. I just don't understand how a manager can be slated while this remains the case.

The lack of success in the PL is disappointing but as you point out, there are countless reasons that can be used to explain this. I won't be criticising Rafa to any large degree until the clubs ownership and hierarchy are sorted out.

What I don't understand about things like that is; how do you expect to be best in your continant if you can't become the best in your country?

therecklessone · 28-02-2009 07:55PM

Pigman III wrote: »

What I don't understand about things like that is; how do you expect to be best in your continant if you can't become the best in your country?

I would have thought that was obvious, the tournament best able to judge the best European side does not require sides to win their league championship to compete.

Highsider · 28-02-2009 07:57PM

Aquos76 wrote: »

So are we now seeing some pool fans saying they want the CL now more than the PL, thats a turn up for the books aye....

I am quitely confident that liverpool will be ending the season without any trophies this season. They do not have the squad for them to win anything imo

Here are the goals for those who have not yet seen them
1-0
2-0

El Zhar's miss

I'll bite. Your right we don't have the squad nor the money to assemble that squad. When we do have that investment at the Chelsea and Man u levels then and only then will it be time to judge Rafa Benitez. Even at that it shows just what a fantastic manager Rafa is when we are 3rd favourite to win the champions league.

jesus_thats_gre · 28-02-2009 08:15PM

Pigman III wrote: »

What I don't understand about things like that is; how do you expect to be best in your continant if you can't become the best in your country?

As things stand this season, we aren't too far behind the very best in the country. We have outplayed and defeated the two clubs that are perceievd to be better at every oppurtunity that we have had this season.

What distinguishes Liverpool from the very best at the moment (Man United) is United's water tight defence and their ability to scrape that 1 nil victory.

We could easily be considered to the 2nd or 3rd best club in both the PL and CL this season. That is more than enough for me as it is a solid base to build on and is a very different situation to where we were 5 years ago before Rafa took over.

Hank Scorpio · 28-02-2009 08:31PM

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

As things stand this season, we aren't too far behind the very best in the country. We have outplayed and defeated the two clubs that are perceievd to be better at every oppurtunity that we have had this season.

What distinguishes Liverpool from the very best at the moment (Man United) is United's water tight defence and their ability to scrape that 1 nil victory.

We could easily be considered to the 2nd or 3rd best club in both the PL and CL this season. That is more than enough for me as it is a solid base to build on and is a very different situation to where we were 5 years ago before Rafa took over.

erm...... No.

Benitez has spent more than ferguson and the only top quality player hes bought has been torres in the past few years, something like 50 players been brought in, i heard on the BBC he averaged bringing in 1 new player every 25 days or something similar, Man for Man , UTD`s squad and chelseas squad crushes liverpools in regards of quality! IMO<

Headshot · 28-02-2009 08:42PM

nuxxx wrote: »

erm...... No.

Benitez has spent more than ferguson and the only top quality player hes bought has been torres in the past few years, something like 50 players been brought in, i heard on the BBC he averaged bringing in 1 new player every 25 days or something similar, Man for Man , UTD`s squad and chelseas squad crushes liverpools in regards of quality! IMO<

what about Reina,Alonso,masch,

(skertel is looking to be a good buy too)

Reina probly being the best keeper in the league

I do agree with you that man utd squad is way better

only 3 liverpool players could get into the utd squad at the moment that being torres,Reina and stevie G

jesus_thats_gre · 28-02-2009 08:52PM

nuxxx wrote: »

erm...... No.

Benitez has spent more than ferguson and the only top quality player hes bought has been torres in the past few years, something like 50 players been brought in, i heard on the BBC he averaged bringing in 1 new player every 25 days or something similar, Man for Man , UTD`s squad and chelseas squad crushes liverpools in regards of quality! IMO<

The time it took to assemble and the overall value on paper of the United squad completely destroys that of Liverpool. The only club that has been able to catch up on and match the investment in individuals of United is Chelsea.

As such, the fact that the Liverpool squad is inferior to both not surprising in the slightest.

Your argument is extremely simplistic in nature.

The net spend of AF in the last 5 years probably is very similar to Rafa's during the same period but the previous 5 years saw the:

- retention of 3, 4 or 5 of the best players in their position in the world (G. Neville, Ferdinand, Scholes, Giggs, Ronaldo)

- a few extremely useful and influential utility players (O'Shea, Fletcher and Brown)

- while also adding 2 or 3 10 to 30 million rated players every season (Anderson, Nani, Tosic, Rooney, Berbatov, Tevez, Carrick, Hargreaves)

-and also adding a few very good value gems (Vidic and Evra)

AF net spend is also artificially low due to selling players that were purchased before Rafa's time while Rafa was at Liverpool - Ruud and Veron being prime examples.

Do I really have to list the players bought by Chelsea during Rafa's tenure and how much they cost?

Pigman III · 28-02-2009 08:56PM

Headshot wrote: »

what about Reina,Alonso,masch,

(skertel is looking to be a good buy too)

Reina probly being the best keeper in the league

I do agree with you that man utd squad is way better

only 3 liverpool players could get into the utd squad at the moment that being torres,Reina and stevie G

Where are you getting Reina from? I wouldn't dream of having him in the sticks for United! In fact, I would have nightmares about having him there!

jesus_thats_gre · 28-02-2009 08:57PM

Pigman III wrote: »

Where are you getting Reina from? I wouldn't dream of having him in the sticks for United! In fact, I would have nightmares about having him there!

Good man.. Our opinions differ so much that there is little point either of us responding to each others posts.

Headshot · 28-02-2009 08:59PM

jesus_thats_gre you forgot utds youth policy with the likes of welbeck,raf,fabio,evans and Eckersley

who have made apperances in the first team this season

with players like that, utd wont need to spend so much money in the future

thats where liverpool are having problems at the moment,just no bright youngsters coming through

Pigman III wrote: »

Where are you getting Reina from? I wouldn't dream of having him in the sticks for United! In fact, I would have nightmares about having him there!

for once im going to agree with jesus_thats_gre

Pigman III · 28-02-2009 09:04PM

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Good man.. Our opinions differ so much that there is little point either of us responding to each others posts.

"Well if you don't know what you've done, then there's no point in me telling you!" - Basically.

Smegball · 28-02-2009 09:30PM

VDS >> Reina

IMO anyways, brings more composure and a sense of security at the back.

Reina granted is a good keeper but is slightly more error prone imo especially from crosses.

VDS just has a aura of security and stability which Reina lacks in SLIGHTLY.

eagle eye · 28-02-2009 09:34PM

Smegball wrote: »

VDS >> Reina

IMO anyways, brings more composure and a sense of security at the back.

Reina granted is a good keeper but is slightly more error prone imo especially from crosses.

VDS just has a aura of security and stability which Reina lacks in SLIGHTLY.

Lets not start a Ferguson and goalkeepers thing in here in this thread but

Tim Howard >>>>>>Reina>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>VDS imo

Mr Alan · 28-02-2009 09:35PM

Smegball wrote: »

VDS >> Reina

IMO anyways, brings more composure and a sense of security at the back.

Reina granted is a good keeper but is slightly more error prone imo especially from crosses.

VDS just has a aura of security and stability which Reina lacks in SLIGHTLY.

this post makes sense, if you actually the mean the opposite of EVERYTHING you say.

VDS cost Utd wat, 4/5 goals in the first couple of months of this season...Reina has cost Liverpool 4/5 goals in the last 3 years.

Reina is better than VDS in every dept. except the "looking like a mouse" dept.

fish fingers · 28-02-2009 09:36PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Lets not start a Ferguson and goalkeepers thing in here in this thread but

Tim Howard >>>>>>Reina>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>VDS imo

Thats why Man utd won feck all with him

fish fingers · 28-02-2009 09:37PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

this post makes sense, if you actually the mean the opposite of EVERYTHING you say.

VDS cost Utd wat, 4/5 goals in the first couple of months of this season...Reina has cost Liverpool 4/5 goals in the last 3 years.

Reina is better than VDS in every dept. except the "looking like a mouse" dept.

Straws, clutching at

Headshot · 28-02-2009 09:37PM

Smegball wrote: »

VDS >> Reina

IMO anyways, brings more composure and a sense of security at the back.

Reina granted is a good keeper but is slightly more error prone imo especially from crosses.

VDS just has a aura of security and stability which Reina lacks in SLIGHTLY.

I think this talk should be in another thread but ill answer anyway

Smegball have you forgotten the VDS of last season and start of this season
he can be very dodgy

yes we won the CL and EPL but vds was dodgy.
the defense more or less saved him

Im not saying Reina is perfect,hes prone to mistakes too but hes a dam fine keeper

Nalz · 28-02-2009 09:41PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

this post makes sense, if you actually the mean the opposite of EVERYTHING you say.

VDS cost Utd wat, 4/5 goals in the first couple of months of this season...Reina has cost Liverpool 4/5 goals in the last 3 years.

Reina is better than VDS in every dept. except the "looking like a mouse" dept.

I much prefer fresh grapes meself!

Mr Alan · 28-02-2009 10:06PM

fish fingers wrote: »

Straws, clutching at

really? you think comparing the amount of mistakes they make that cost goals is clutching at straws when comparing goalkeepers?

come on outa that now.

Trilla wrote: »

I much prefer fresh grapes meself!

no sour grapes from me. never thought we'd win the league this year.

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Thanks Rafa.........get your coat, and close the ******* door on your way out!!!

:mad:

i cant wait for him to sign his new deal either.

CHD · 28-02-2009 10:33PM

I have a huge hatred for liverpool and man utd but Reina > VDS and there the top two right nw, only Given comes close lately imo.

therecklessone · 28-02-2009 10:44PM

Headshot wrote: »

I think this talk should be in another thread but ill answer anyway

I tend to agree, and in an effort to avoid another match thread closure I've moved the most pertinent posts (and the ones veering off-topic

) here.

I can't think of another thread title, it's been a long day, but I'm not trying to instigate a Liverpool vs the world row. You guys want to compare and contrast, work away here and we'll see how things go.

Hope that meets with some approval.

LuckyLloyd · 28-02-2009 11:02PM

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Try £81,791,000 Boogles, as you well know.

Ronnie didn't imply that rafa had spent loads and recouped loads.

He deliberately implied that Rafa had outlayed a total of £200,000,000 on 69 players.

Rafa has only bought 51 players, and the NET outlay was £81,791,000.
That's over 5 seasons.
That means that Rafa has spent on average £16,358,200 a season!

But then we all know this.
And we all know that the people here don't care, and that they will get involved, saying the exact same things the next time this is posted.
Because they simply want to argue.

We also know that Rafa has spend Net of £81 mill, and has recouped around £50 mill in Champions League money alone, not to mention the £20 or so mill in domestic earnings.

Add to that the increase in value of players like Masch, Torres, Skrtel, Agger, Alonso, Reina etc etc etc.

So Rafa has technically made more money for the club than he's cost them!

His wages are paltry (comparatively), Torres alone has doubled in value in a year, and his win in the CL generated £26,000,000 not to mention the £12,000,000 two years later, and the millions in the other two runs.

But facts are such awkward little things, eh?!;)

.

Headshot · 28-02-2009 11:06PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

.

i knew your going to bring that out

nice bookmark

jesus_thats_gre · 01-03-2009 02:42PM

Headshot wrote: »

jesus_thats_gre you forgot utds youth policy with the likes of welbeck,raf,fabio,evans and Eckersley

who have made apperances in the first team this season

with players like that, utd wont need to spend so much money in the future

thats where liverpool are having problems at the moment,just no bright youngsters coming through

I agree that the youth policy of Liverpool isn't producing the talent that it should be. The problem is that it takes a few seasons for players like that to be produced. They are spotted at in their teens and nurtured for anything up to 6 or 7 years before they start regularly making appearences for the first team.

In signing 15 to 20 young players in the past 2 years or so, it is obvious that the club are trying to make steps to rectify that shortcoming.

All these are all reasons why simply comparing AF's net spent to Rafa's net spend over the last 4.5 years is extremely naive.

jesus_thats_gre · 01-03-2009 02:59PM

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Your argument is extremely simplistic in nature.

The net spend of AF in the last 5 years probably is very similar to Rafa's during the same period but the previous 5 years saw the:
- retention of 3, 4 or 5 of the best players in their position in the world (G. Neville, Ferdinand, Scholes, Giggs, Ronaldo)

- a few extremely useful and influential utility players (O'Shea, Fletcher and Brown)

- while also adding 2 or 3 10 to 30 million rated players every season (Anderson, Nani, Tosic, Rooney, Berbatov, Tevez, Carrick, Hargreaves)

-and also adding a few very good value gems (Vidic and Evra)
AF net spend is also artificially low due to selling players that were purchased before Rafa's time while Rafa was at Liverpool - Ruud and Veron being prime examples.

To further highlight how the net spend argument since Rafa joined is overly simple, United have recieved the following transfer fees for players during that same period for players that were signed long before Rafa ever had anything to do with Liverpool:

David Beckham to Real Madrid - 25 million pound or 35 million eurp
Juan Veron to Chelsea - 14 million pound or 20 million euro
Ruud Van Nistelrooy - 12 million pound or 18 million euro

And sure throw in the debacle with Chelsea over Jon Obi Mikel - 12 million pound or 18 million euro.

All these do is skew the figures to the extend that it is not a valid argument.

Unearthly · 01-03-2009 03:02PM

Beckham and Veron were sold Summer 2003. 1 year before Benitez joined Liverpool.

jesus_thats_gre · 01-03-2009 03:11PM

Unearthly wrote: »

Beckham and Veron were sold Summer 2003. 1 year before Benitez joined Liverpool.

Indeed, apologies.

In an attempt to keep my point semi relevent, United's net transfer spend for that summer was a profit of 15 million pound and included the purchase of Ronaldo.

PHB · 01-03-2009 03:32PM

In all fairness, Fabio and Rafael were bought like a year and a half ago, as was Possebon. Welbeck and Evans were coming through the youth team that is true though.

---

The net spend isn't naive. It's just not entirely encompassing. It's just pointing out that the stupid argument we hear like 'but Benetiz has had to work on a budget', is, as anyone who actually listens to other posters, stupid.

---

RE: Ruud and net spend. Some players were sold for Liverpool, some were sold from United. Owen, Murphy, baros and Cisse would have brought in close to 25 million. Liverpools total spend has been higher than United's, as has their total income in sales [obviously].

----

Are any of these points not valid?

1. United and Liverpool have spent nearly the same amount of money in terms of net spend in the last 5 years.

2. In those five years, United have, on average, bought less players for more money, while Liverpool have bought more players, and then sold them on, for less money.

3. At the point of takeover, United were in better shape than United in terms of squad. Ferdinand, Giggs, Scholes, Ronaldo, Brown, Fletcher and O'Shea are still around.
Liverpool just have Hyypia, Carragher and Gerrard. Most would agree the 3 talents there are fairly similar, the difference there was simply the three squad players of Brown, Fletcher and O'Shea, and then Ronaldo.

4. The league positions however didn't massively reflect this difference, with United and Liverpool both failing to compete with Arsenal that year. The following two years, United couldn't compete in the league.

5. Both managers had to entirely rebuild the squad.

6. The two managers took difference approaches.

I think everyone agrees with those 6 points.
After that imo the transfer record speaks for itself.

GK - Both had to buy a new keeper and both did, and both are fairly happy with it.
LB - Both had to get a new LB to replace the old one. Fergie bought Evra for 6.5 million. Benetiz has bought Dossena, Inusa, Aurélio. None of them has been as good.
CB - Both had to get a CB to partner their current one (Ferdinand/Carragher). United bought Vidic for 7.5 million. Liverpool have bought Agger and Sretkle. Vidic is better, but the other two are decent.
RB - United had Neville. Liverpool had Finnan. Both were very good. When their time came, United had Brown in waiting, and have since gotten Rafael for like 1 million. Liverpool have bought a few in this area, most notably Arbeleo, who is quality.
CM - United replaced all but Scholes. Liverpool replaced all but Gerrard. Both managers have done pretty well in this area.
RM - United already had Ronaldo. Liverpool had nobody decent.
LM - United had an aging Giggs, but nobody else. Liverpool had nobody decent.
United bought Nani, Park and now Tosic. Liverpool have bought so many wingers so less money and it hasn't worked out. [Although Reira is showing good signs]
Strikers - United bought 3 top quality strikers. Rooney, Berbatov and Saha. Liverpool bought a load of them for less money and it didnt work out. Both have spent similar net spends in this area.

In nearly all areas, bar maybe CM, United shade it. With similar net spends. And similar enough starting positions. United defo had a better starting position, no doubt about it. But ultimately, and this is the real nuts and bolts of it, Benetiz's transfer policies haven't been as good as they should be. Whatever the reason, he's had 5 years to mould a squad and he has made just too many mistakes. Let's list them in terms of attackers and list Fergie's mistakes.

Rafa's certain mistakes: [Didn't include Babel or Lucas who the jury is still out on]
Keane
Crouch
Bellamy
Gonzalez
Pennant
Morientes

Fergie's mistakes:
Saha [although he did play a big role in one title win]

Personally, I think Benetiz's transfer record speaks for itself. There are lots of things that meant that he had a harder starting position, most if not all would accept that. But after that starting position, he had the same amount of money, and he has used it poorly.

noodler · 01-03-2009 03:46PM

People who keep mentioning players who he bought and sold on without a loss should ask if thats really what the point of signing players is. It certainly isn't to sell them on in a year-the key idea behind buying players is strengthening the squad.

I simply don't trust Rafa with anymore money, certainly not the amounts that have been mentioned in the media.

Guy:Incognito · 01-03-2009 03:49PM

PHB wrote: »

Rafa's certain mistakes: [Didn't include Babel or Lucas who the jury is still out on]
Keane
Crouch
Bellamy
Gonzalez
Pennant
Morientes

Fergie's mistakes:
Saha [although he did play a big role in one title win]
.

Havnt read through the lot so forgive me if I miss the point on that but what of the likes of Djemba-Djemba and a few goal keepers? Veron?Kleberson?

PHB · 01-03-2009 03:58PM

I was talking about since Rafa joined. I was also just talking about attacking players.
That said, Fergie's transfers before Mourinho came in were shocking imo, but he totally stepped it up after that point.

Liverpool squad/keeper/spending comparison thread [read post #161]

Comments