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[Article] Music-swapping sites to be blocked by internet providers

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    #362
    MOH
    Registered Users Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭MOH


    Sparks wrote: »
    In Eircom's T&C's, there this section:And when you look up that Usage policy you find this:Go to a kiddie porn site, in other words, and you're in violation of your T&C's (as well as other applicable laws).

    Ah, good spot, I'd missed that 5.10 section. and the 'acceptable usage policy' doesn't immediately jump out at you from the eircom.net site.

    Two points though:
    - that's saying you can't do something which breaks the law, fine, but that's not what we were talking about originally when it seemed that Eircom were going to block sites listed by IRMA without a court order (which they're not now, so it's a moot point)
    - I still don't think that gives them the right to block pre-emptively sites on the grounds that if you were to visit them you might break the law and hence their T&Cs (if every single page on the site contained illegal images, and thus even by viewing the page in your browser you were breaking the law, then fine - but that's not the case with TPB).

    I'm not trying to argue what's right or wrong or what way things should be - I just think that their existing T+Cs don't give them the right to block TPB, unless an Irish court determines either that visiting that specific website, or in general that visting a site hosting trackers to torrents of copyrighted material is illegal.


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    #363
    PaddyTheNth
    Registered Users Posts: 605 ✭✭✭PaddyTheNth


    Cabaal wrote: »
    wtf, so its ok to download copyright material because you can';t be bothered or afford to pay....your still talking crap

    Just because you couldn't be bothered or are unwilling/unable to pay does not make it ok to download copyright material.......
    Again, I have never said this. You continue to misunderstand me.

    What I have said is simply to the effect that the argument of one download = one lost sale is completely invalid.

    I have never once on this forum defended copyright infringement. In fact, I have repeatedly said that it is illegal and defended Eircom's 3 strikes/disconnection policy.


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    #364
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    nilhg wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59140740&postcount=1
    Might be worth reading the OP
    Might be worth writing clearly when you're discussing a complex situation with several entities at play.


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    #365
    NullZer0
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭NullZer0


    Cabaal wrote: »
    The Internet was created as a network to share resources in respect of military and science, it was not created as a wild west where you could say and do anything you wanted.

    It did however create its own system of sites and resources that changed over the years and allowed "freedom of speech" etc but it was not built with this in mind at the beginning

    No it wasn't built with that in mind at the beginning but it was built as a way to share resources in respect of the military - looking at arpanet - the basis for packet switched networks that are scalable.

    "share resources" - why not share digitally. As I mentioned earlier I have no interest in pirating music because I get most of it from friends. But say for example I organise a group that meets up every week at a specific location. At this meeting, people swap and share music - I'm breaking the law right? - and even if I dont swap/share material... say I only organise the meet then I'm assisting infringement right?

    Why not just embrace the change? After all the internet (and such networks) are based on open standards defined by the IEEE like BGP between AS for example.


    So ... where do we stop defining internet? I mean if we have the NEXT evolution of autonomous systems connected in a similar fashion using similar standards based IGP's and EGP's (just as an example I know thats broad) is this STILL "the internet"? I mean in theory anyone could set this up!

    Where is the line drawn? :eek:


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    #366
    MOH
    Registered Users Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭MOH


    Mathiasb wrote: »
    If I bought an album, I should be able to do whatever I want with it. Play it in any program. Put it on any device. Burn a CD and give to a friend (which is exactly what copying a tape is - and that's legal).

    Copying a tape and giving it to a friend is legal? Since when?


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    #367
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    PaddyTheNth wrote: »
    Again, I have never said this. You continue to misunderstand me.

    What I have said is simply to the effect that the argument of one download = one lost sale is completely invalid.

    Yes I know your saying that argument is invalid fair enough but your examples against it make no sense in respect of this. (ok to download if you just want to try etc)

    You mentioned examples on the net perhaps you should find those instead of writing your own :)

    I have never once on this forum defended copyright infringement. In fact, I have repeatedly said that it is illegal and defended Eircom's 3 strikes/disconnection policy.

    Fair enough if your making that clear thats fine, as I've said in a recent helpdesk thread
    For the record my personal view is:
    - The pirate bay overwhelming links to copyright material v legal material (thats clear to everyone but a blind person)
    - I don't think eircom blocking any site is a good idea
    - I understand where the industry is coming from in trying to protect their products...that however doesn't mean I agree with their tactics.


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    #368
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    MOH wrote: »
    I'm not trying to argue what's right or wrong or what way things should be - I just think that their existing T+Cs don't give them the right to block TPB, unless an Irish court determines either that visiting that specific website, or in general that visting a site hosting trackers to torrents of copyrighted material is illegal.
    As far as I can see, that's the case; but since IRMA has to go to court over this anyway, it doesn't matter. IRMA will go to court to get the court order, Eircom won't oppose the application, the judge will rule and if he rules for IRMA, then you're in breach of your T&Cs by going to TPB. If Eircom chooses not to host TPB's DNS record (or to block it through some similar mechanism), then it's not an issue at that point, they're just complying with a court order.


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    #369
    MOH
    Registered Users Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭MOH


    Sparks wrote: »
    As far as I can see, that's the case; but since IRMA has to go to court over this anyway, it doesn't matter. IRMA will go to court to get the court order, Eircom won't oppose the application, the judge will rule and if he rules for IRMA, then you're in breach of your T&Cs by going to TPB. If Eircom chooses not to host TPB's DNS record (or to block it through some similar mechanism), then it's not an issue at that point, they're just complying with a court order.

    Hurrah! We agree! A little oasis of bonhomie in an otherwise fractious thread.

    Of course that still leaves the problem that if the judge does rule for IRMA we're on the slippery slope to doom.


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    #370
    Mathiasb
    Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭Mathiasb


    MOH wrote: »
    Copying a tape and giving it to a friend is legal? Since when?

    Okay I don't know about Ireland but it's legal in Sweden (so far, at least).

    So you can't even make a mixed tape to your girlfriend here in Ireland? Man, that's gotta suck...


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    #371
    PaddyTheNth
    Registered Users Posts: 605 ✭✭✭PaddyTheNth


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Yes I know your saying that argument is invalid fair enough but your examples against it make no sense in respect of this. (ok to download if you just want to try etc)

    You mentioned examples on the net perhaps you should find those instead of writing your own :)
    PaddyTheNth wrote:
    Tbh Cabaal the argument of one download = one lost sale is utterly ludicrous.

    There are plenty of good explanations of why it is invalid around, some of which I'll dig up if I get the chance this evening, but that argument only holds up when the downloaders in question all have an unlimited amount of disposable income.
    PaddyTheNth wrote:
    The argument that one download = one lost sale is invalid because many people download things that they simply would not pay for...by lack of desire..."I wonder what XXX's new album is like but I really couldn't be bothered paying for it"...or by lack of ability..."I wonder what XXX's new album sounds like but I can't afford it"

    I made it pretty damn clear that I was referring to the argument.

    I then gave two examples of situations where downloads occur which would not occur if purchasing was the only option.

    Fair enough I was paraphrasing to a certain extent, but I don't know how you managed to read that I was saying that it was ok to download if you don't have money to pay.


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    #372
    Mathiasb
    Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭Mathiasb


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Lets see...iTunes DRM songs
    - Copied to as many PC's as you want
    - Copied to as many PM3 players as you want
    - Burn to as many CD's as you want

    Don't believe they are in FLAC but I could be wrong (perhaps you should check apple.com/itunes), given the average joe doesn't know what FLAC is iTunes is selling to the normal joe on the street and selling DRM free songs without the restrictions which makes everyone happy.





    I'd agree iTunes on Windows isn't perfect, its miles ahead on Macs though and feels alot less clunky and buggy and yes if you download a DRM free album then you can as you so put it "do what you want" :)

    To get DRM free songs off iTunes one needs to have iTunes installed, and use iTunes plus.
    High-quality, DRM-free music.
    iTunes Plus is the new standard on iTunes.

    Now, you can choose from millions of iTunes Plus songs from all four major music labels and thousands of independents. With iTunes Plus, you get high-quality, 256-Kbps AAC encoding. All free of burn limits and digital rights management (DRM). So iTunes Plus music will play on iPod, Apple TV, all Mac and Windows computers, and many other digital music players. It’s also easy to upgrade your iTunes library to iTunes Plus. You don’t have to buy the song or album again. Just pay the 30¢ per song upgrade price. (Music video upgrades are 60¢ and entire albums can be upgraded for 30 percent of the album price.)


    I can't find what it costs to buy a DRM-free album though. And if I have to use iTunes to buy the songs, that's not free, that's vendor lock-in. Of course there are other vendors besides Apple out there.


    Perhaps there is a viable DRM-free online solution with humane prices? (max €10 per album)


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    #373
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,270 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    Mathiasb wrote: »
    Okay I don't know about Ireland but it's legal in Sweden (so far, at least).

    So you can't even make a mixed tape to your girlfriend here in Ireland? Man, that's gotta suck...
    I guess you're referring to the STIM tax (a fee is paid for any blank tape, CD, VHS, DVD etc. to cover the piracy you may do with it even though you might use it for something else). That has not been tested in court as defence to my knowledge as the only cases have been about massive piracy for selling and digital upload (but it is one that comes to mind as a defence for a "private user" who's not making profit out of it).

    I do think that some kind of fee like that for downloading is really the best route to go. The same way I have to pay a fee for having a TV even if I never use it to watch anything but my DVDs. Base it on the speed of the connection and voila.


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    #374
    Mathiasb
    Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭Mathiasb


    Nody wrote: »
    I guess you're referring to the STIM tax (a fee is paid for any blank tape, CD, VHS, DVD etc. to cover the piracy you may do with it even though you might use it for something else). That has not been tested in court as defence to my knowledge as the only cases have been about massive piracy for selling and digital upload (but it is one that comes to mind as a defence for a "private user" who's not making profit out of it).

    I do think that some kind of fee like that for downloading is really the best route to go. The same way I have to pay a fee for having a TV even if I never use it to watch anything but my DVDs. Base it on the speed of the connection and voila.

    Yeah I think it's the STIM tax. It's included as you say, in blank media etc. People don't mind it. It works!


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    #375
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,877 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Mathiasb wrote: »
    So. I can be arrested by Garda for posession of a PC, because it might be used to download copyrighted files, which is illegal.

    It's bit of a stretch - but it could happen?
    Don't forget that if you bring a laptop through airport in UK or US not only are they allowed to do a full search but also it's an offense not to provide passwords if you have any encryption or password protection on it.

    Interesting , if you downloaded from a Russian mp3 site ( for example ) could customs get involved ? Customs don't need a warrant and some DVD's could be priced here at over the cut off value.


    Off Topic
    When a movie is shown on non-pay TV the cost is covered by TV license / advertising. DVD's are give free with news papers. In an ideal world DVD re-releases could be paid for by ads on DVD that you can't easily skip past by putting at the start of each section.
    /Off Topic

    But we have to deal with things as they are. More money is made from DVD sales than in the cinema. For some films the box office is nearly a loss leader / break even for the the initial DVD sales. So there is no chance of cost of the initial DVD's dropping. It's a bit like the way the rental DVD's cost more than the retail DVD's that appear 6 months later. It would be nice for the price of older DVD's to drop to a point where it isn't many multiples the cost of production. But the studios have a monopoly on the media for life +70 so it's a case of take it or leave it, or wait until you can pick it up for a few euro in a sale or charity shop. Was going to say ebay but not always genuine there.

    /2c


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    #376
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,877 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    [ad break]:)
    20081222_riaa_watching_you.jpg
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    #377
    NullZer0
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭NullZer0


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Don't forget that if you bring a laptop through airport in UK or US not only are they allowed to do a full search but also it's an offense not to provide passwords if you have any encryption or password protection on it.

    Starting to become even more clear that the "experts" are not experts.
    If you need to ask for a password you should not have this job!
    :D


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    #378
    NullZer0
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭NullZer0


    What is RIAA Radar?
    The RIAA Radar is a tool that music consumers can use to easily and instantly distinguish whether an album was released by a member of the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA).


    I like! http://www.riaaradar.com/

    I think we need something similar.


  • Options
    #379
    Mathiasb
    Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭Mathiasb


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Don't forget that if you bring a laptop through airport in UK or US not only are they allowed to do a full search but also it's an offense not to provide passwords if you have any encryption or password protection on it.
    /2c

    Yeah, that's extremely weird. It's already known to the rest of the world that the citizens of UK have lost all freedom, though.

    I'll just use truecrypt, and give them my password for the encryption, all they'll find is my OS. The data would be hidden in another hidden truecrypt volume inside the first volume, protected by a different password (and encrypted, it's indistuingishable from random data)

    So they won't find anything anyway. ;)


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    #380
    Mathiasb
    Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭Mathiasb


    iRock wrote: »
    I like! http://www.riaaradar.com/

    I think we need something similar.

    Great site!


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    #381
    NullZer0
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭NullZer0


    Mathiasb wrote: »
    Yeah, that's extremely weird. It's already known to the rest of the world that the citizens of UK have lost all freedom, though.

    I'll just use truecrypt, and give them my password for the encryption, all they'll find is my OS. The data would be hidden in another hidden truecrypt volume inside the first volume, protected by a different password (and encrypted, it's indistuingishable from random data)

    So they won't find anything anyway. ;)

    Good idea.... they'll never cop on to that one... unless people start posting the idea on the net.


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    #382
    Mathiasb
    Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭Mathiasb


    iRock wrote: »
    Good idea.... they'll never cop on to that one... unless people start posting the idea on the net.

    Doesn't matter, the second hidden volume is just that, hidden. There's no way to prove that it's there.


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    #383
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    PaddyTheNth wrote: »
    I then gave two examples of situations where downloads occur which would not occur if purchasing was the only option.

    .

    Ok ok so people download because they can download it instead of purchasing? :D


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    #384
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Mathiasb wrote: »
    To get DRM free songs off iTunes one needs to have iTunes installed, and use iTunes plus.

    I can't find what it costs to buy a DRM-free album though. And if I have to use iTunes to buy the songs, that's not free, that's vendor lock-in. Of course there are other vendors besides Apple out there.

    Perhaps there is a viable DRM-free online solution with humane prices? (max €10 per album)

    iTunes is iTunes plus there is no extra software and their is no vendor lock-in once the song is downloaded as it can be played with anything so iTunes is merely your "download client" for purchasing.

    Most DRM albums come in at 9.99e not sure what DRM-Free costs off hand, would you not agree Apple's iTunes store is certainly a viable alternative especially considering it now does DRM-free music that can be played on any MP3 player?

    Sure the software could be better but its a sight better then the vast majority of crap music download services available to the average joe


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    #385
    PaddyTheNth
    Registered Users Posts: 605 ✭✭✭PaddyTheNth


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Ok ok so people download because they can download it instead of purchasing? :D
    In the context of illegal downloads where disposable income is limited, yes :)


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    #386
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    PaddyTheNth wrote: »
    In the context of illegal downloads, yes :)

    But isn't this what IRMA want to stop, they want to stop the ease of access to this illegal content by limiting access (blocking sites) and getting users warned if they do manage to download it.

    Sure I don't agree with either idea but I understand their reasoning in respect of both plans and what the hope to get out of them (people buy instead of being caught downloading it illegally).

    Unfortunately as much as people bitch about the music industry people continue to buy their products so they continue to get money and will continue to try protect their products,.

    Of course if people actually voted with their feet on a massive scale the industry would be fecked as bands would want nothing to do with the organizations.....

    That however is not going to happen as long as the average joe and teenager buy the latest pop single (I say teenagers as they account for the massive sales in the top 30 pop charts)


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    #387
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,877 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    PaddyTheNth wrote: »
    I will be, just as soon as I can research who can provide me with the best combination of pricing and service for 3mb broadband :)
    Microsoft .NET Framework 3.5 Service Pack 1 and .NET Framework 3.5 Family Update (KB951847) x86
    Date last published: 1/27/2009
    Download size: 248.4 MB
    add to this Acrobat Reader updates and you have a large chunk of a 1GB cap gone before you even start.
    Also 3G is painfully slow unless you are lucky enough to a sector of a phone mast all to your self , and happens in other countries too , it's the nature of the technology and overselling, expect dial up speeds / problems connecting in some locations.

    http://www.o2online.ie/wps/wcm/connect/O2/Home/Explore+Services/Services/O2+Broadband/Check+Coverage/
    Parts of Dublin city don't have enough coverage to allow it in the home

    Maybe use 3G as the return path for one way satellite ?


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    #388
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,877 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Try this then, copying copyright material and boards.ie isn't here to discuss illegal activity's and about how great they are...just as you wouldn't be thick enough to boost about going 180km in a 100km zone if you were driving when posting on boards.
    I'm assuming you are referring to this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055496568 :pac:


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    #389
    PaddyTheNth
    Registered Users Posts: 605 ✭✭✭PaddyTheNth


    Cabaal wrote: »
    But isn't this what IRMA want to stop, they want to stop the ease of access to this illegal content by limiting access (blocking sites) and getting users warned if they do manage to download it.
    As I've already thrashed out with Sparks in this thread, my argument is with the fact that in my understanding (citing a journalist in the Sunday Business Post) there is no judicial review of the censoring of sites - IRMA just turn up in court and as there's no opposition to their application the order is automatically granted.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59179233&postcount=333

    Sparks is citing Iago who states in this thread that the judge will still treat each application on its merits.

    I'd love to have it clarified which case is correct.
    Cabaal wrote: »
    Sure I don't agree with either idea but I understand their reasoning in respect of both plans and what the hope to get out of them (people buy instead of being caught downloading it illegally).

    Unfortunately as much as people bitch about the music industry people continue to buy their products so they continue to get money and will continue to try protect their products,.

    Of course if people actually voted with their feet on a massive scale the industry would be fecked as bands would want nothing to do with the organizations.....

    That however is not going to happen as long as the average joe and teenager buy the latest pop single (I say teenagers as they account for the massive sales in the top 30 pop charts)
    Don't disagree with any of that, there's a huge disconnect between sentiment and action.


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    #390
    PaddyTheNth
    Registered Users Posts: 605 ✭✭✭PaddyTheNth


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Microsoft .NET Framework 3.5 Service Pack 1 and .NET Framework 3.5 Family Update (KB951847) x86
    Date last published: 1/27/2009
    Download size: 248.4 MB
    add to this Acrobat Reader updates and you have a large chunk of a 1GB cap gone before you even start.
    Also 3G is painfully slow unless you are lucky enough to a sector of a phone mast all to your self , and happens in other countries too , it's the nature of the technology and overselling, expect dial up speeds / problems connecting in some locations.

    http://www.o2online.ie/wps/wcm/connect/O2/Home/Explore+Services/Services/O2+Broadband/Check+Coverage/
    Parts of Dublin city don't have enough coverage to allow it in the home

    Maybe use 3G as the return path for one way satellite ?
    3mb(it) - the minimum speed that I want - not 3G;)

    Thanks for the info though.


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    #391
    Mathiasb
    Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭Mathiasb


    Cabaal wrote: »
    iTunes is iTunes plus there is no extra software and their is no vendor lock-in once the song is downloaded as it can be played with anything so iTunes is merely your "download client" for purchasing.

    Most DRM albums come in at 9.99e not sure what DRM-Free costs off hand, would you not agree Apple's iTunes store is certainly a viable alternative especially considering it now does DRM-free music that can be played on any MP3 player?

    Sure the software could be better but its a sight better then the vast majority of crap music download services available to the average joe

    You have to be kidding right? 10 euro for a DRM crippled album? It should be half of that, MAXIMUM. Why? Because there are no other costs like CD production, album art printing, booklet, shipping the CDs etc.

    But yeah, until prices come down on DRM free content, we have no option.

    I buy music on CD or DVD I consider worth buying, IMO I pay my fair share. I also attend to concerts whenever my bands are nearby, that probably generates more money than CD sales, but I dunno.


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