Does this embarrass you when you hear things like this?

A muslim denounce Mohammed? Nope. Nor are they going to say anything that might be taken as such.

(As an aside, I personally think that this kind of debate within Islam has been held back, given the amount of politically motivated 'Muslim bashing' thats been around for the last few years)

Nodin wrote: »

All I'm saying is that to judge that kind of thing 1,400 years ago by todays standards is a rather pointless exercise.

Thank you! Finally, someone has grasped the idea of it!

It is so typically western that we would think that our way is the only and best way. The same goes for things like multiple wives etc - just because it's not in our society, people see it as being 'wrong' yet for many people it really does work.

When looking at Muhammad's marriage to Aisha, we must take into account:
the culture of that time- the Virgin Mary was said to be 14 when she gave birth to Jesus and she was married to her uncle- why is Joseph not portrayed as being depraved?
Muhammad's highly regarded social position
the fact that Aisha had previous marriage requests
Muhammad had previously been married to an older woman- happily and monogomously- for many years until she died
Muhammad married Aisha at 6 (according to some sources) and didn't consumate their marriage until she was a woman in the biological sense- if he was a paedophile he would have had sex with her beforehand
Aisha's marriage to Muhammad was always portrayed as a happy one and she mourned his death greatly
Now people will obviously start saying "Ah well, obviously he'll say it was a happy marriage" but she also contributed and had a very active life within the foundation of Islam

Simon.d wrote: »

I'm simply asking a Muslim to denounce it

Then you'd better look elsewhere, cos I'm not a Muslim. Anyway, what business is it of yours what others choose to believe? I hate this elitist Dawkins loving crap that if you're not an atheist then you must be a moron and that everyone has to think like that- it's ridiculous. At the end of the day, there will always be religion and differing points of view and there's no use being self righteous and snotty just because people's beliefs don't fit into your ideas. I don't think anyone should have to judge the situation on today's standards because it didn't HAPPEN in today's world. As was said before, it's a useless exercise. And Islam doesn't teach that Muhammad was perfect - that'd be Jesus you're confusing him with. Muhammad was human. Simple as. Nobody needs to do mental cartwheels, they just need to assess the situation objectively

Yogabba wrote: »

Can anyone logically deny that a 9-year old girl is still a child, both physically and emotionally???????

Physically- no, she was not a child. In Islamic society a girl is a woman when she starts having periods, and Aisha had. Emotionally- the only historical sources we have are the Qur'an and Hadiths and Aisha has always been presented as a mature and capable young woman. Make of it what you will, in the end nobody will ever know 100% what was going on in everyone's heads at that time. At this time women were married at this age and that was that- luckily for her, it turned out to be a happy marriage.

Yogabba wrote: »

So do you think it is still ok for a 9 year old to get married and have 'consensual' sex with a much older man, as long as she has gotten her periods? I mean in today's society?

But that's the problem- we're not talking about today's society. Trying to judge Muhammad's marriage to Aisha isn't comparable to today's norms. That's why I'm not going to even go down that road- it's like bitching about why Moses didn't use a ring binder for the ten commandments instead of slabs of rock- you just can't take these situations, impose them into our time and culture and judge them that way!

Simon.d wrote: »

Most Christians (as far as I'm aware) actually believe Mary never had sex with Joseph (or anyone for that matter), hence being termed "The Virgin Mary", so I don't see what parallel you're trying to draw here...

Oh PLEASE! So I'm sure he married Mary for the sole purpose of NOT having sex with her? And when he threatened to divorce her after he found out she was pregnant he wasn't REALLY annoyed because he didn't intend on impregnating her himself ANYWAY... come off it.

Simon.d wrote: »

That's ridiculous logic.. A nine year old girl isn't a woman full stop.. Is five year old Lina Medina a woman for the same reasons?

You know why Lina Medina has a wikipedia page, Simon? Because her case is so flipping bizarre! It's impossible to compare her to your average girl that you would see on a daily basis for the simple fact that she is exceptional. In Aisha's time it was the norm to marry early as it meant financial security for her and her family, avoided the possibilities of fornication and unwanted pregnancies (like Lina had) which could have led to her being completely ostracised from her communitiy and she was all the better for it because she had a happy marriage, a loving husband and made a real contribution to Islam- something I can't say for the Christian faith where women aren't seen as doing much other than being pregnant virgins. Oh, and lets not forget the fact that if any more books where written by them into the bible they were edited out and all that remains are crappy little short snippets which only talk about bearing sons and the like.

Simon.d wrote: »

So you believe that Lina Medina (a five year old child who also had her period) was an adult aged five?

In the physical sense, she was an adult- as was capable of having children (which she did- out of wedlock- which pretty much shows the terrible consequences of not either protecting or marrying young women who reach puberty) The fact is that Aisha was not only physically a woman, but also mentally- she helped on battle fields and wrote her own surahs!! Does this sound like the work of a child to you?

Simon.d wrote: »

I'm taking issue with the idea that members of Modern Irish society seem to be unable denounce the statutory rape of pubescent preteen children.. It's quite a legitimate concern I would think..

In fairness, I have yet to meet an Irish Muslim who thinks that women should get married the minute they have their periods- just like many decades ago when women were married early, times have moved on. Before there was no need for a woman to get educated because she was only going to have children anyway and need to care for them by herself, but now that she does you only need look at colleges to see the fairly substantial amount of Muslim women (particularly in the medical field) who are partaking along with everyone else. Have you ever heard of a Muslim woman marrying before the age of 18 here? You must have if it's such a 'legitimate concern'...

Simon.d wrote: »

Some factions within islam are questioning the authenticity of the Hadith containg this reference to Aisha's young age, revising the commonly held belief that Mohammed had sex with a child, which would be a healthy route for the rest of the religion to follow methinks..:

If you read the links I gave to you, you would have already realised that I am aware that many people are questioning the authenticity of the Hadith, especially Aisha's age. Nobody actual knows her real age, and I have told you that previously. Many believe she was 18, many 9, many 6 - the simple fact is that it is her contribution to Islam and not her sexual endeavors that mark her real legacy in Islam.

It seems that you still don't understand the concept that Muhammad's marriage to Aisha didn't occur within the same kind of society as we have today and therefore isn't something that would be beneficial to modern believers. It is more important for women to be educated these days and because of longer life spans and the difference of their role in society, girls aren't under pressure to become mentally mature as quickly as they needed to in a time of wars, early deaths and lots of responsibility.It would repulse people today because it is not the norm- yet at the time of Muhammad it was a common occurance.

I have already outlined my reasons why he did not conduct this marriage out of sexual depravity (in particular, the example of his marriage to Khadijah). Aisha was already destined to be married and what better home than with a kind man who could support her. Marriages back then weren't the whirlwind romances they are today which often begin because of physical attraction. Theirs was a marriage which was much deeper than that and age didn't entite and equally didn't deter either of them from entering this partnership.

Simon.d wrote: »

I really don't care about her legacy.. I don't care what society was like back then, all I care about at this moment is the moral stance of modern day muslims on this issue.. You continually dodge my point.. Please just answer this one question, with a yes or no answer, no ifs, buts, or whatever..

Do you think it is morally acceptable for a 50 year old man to has sexual intercourse with a 9 year old girl?

Yes or No

I know you're not a muslim (yet), but please answer the question anyhow...

Do you think it's morally acceptable for someone to steal?
Oooh no!

What if that person was poor and starving?
Oh then yes, it's okay

What if that person had no need to steal and was stealing from the elderly and the disadvantaged?
Then it isn't




See? Sometimes things aren't as black and white as they may appear. I refuse to be bullied into giving an answer to a matter out of context. If you don't care about the context, or the society or even whether the marriage was a happy one or not, then you obviously mustn't care about her age at marriage either.

Simon.d wrote: »

Fair enough... Context can matter and it obviously does in the scenario I proposed to you..

Finally! That's all I wanted. And if you seriously think I'm going to degrade myself by filling in your ridiculous 'fill in the blanks', you'd wany to think again. I'm not 5, unless you haven't noticed. I've already told you my opinion and you're obviously never going to be satisified with what I'm going to say. At this stage, I'm bored of you.

Simon.d wrote: »

Well you could be for all I know... As you've implied Aisha was fighting battles and writing Surahs aged nine, surely someone of her mature mind could debate these theological issues aged 5?

Who said she had sex with the prophet(p) when she was 9?

Simon.d wrote: »

The following is an extract taken from Sahih al-Bukhari's Hadith.... Known to many as "the most authentic book after the Holy Qur’an.”


Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

OK, all this says is that the prophet, peace be upon him, completed an arrangement or an agreement by the signing of a contract with abu Bakr. Where does she say that they had sexual intercourse? They didn't necessarily have to have sexual intercourse. Even though these types of marriages were a normal occurrence in Arabia, this specific marriage was a special one in the light of Islam. There was wisdom behind it that you must try to research properly instead of assuming that it was wrong!

Simon.d wrote: »

To consummate a marriage is to have sexual intercourse... If you could show me alternate translations of this hadith that suggests otherwise, fire ahead.. That contract was already signed when Aisha was six, so I don't see where that comes in..

con⋅sum⋅mate
   /v. ˈ[v. kon-suh-meyt; adj. kuhn-suhm-it, kon-suh-mit] Show IPA verb, -mat⋅ed, -mat⋅ing, adjective
–verb (used with object)
1. to bring to a state of perfection; fulfill.
2. to complete (an arrangement, agreement, or the like) by a pledge or the signing of a contract: The company consummated its deal to buy a smaller firm.

I'm saying, usually to complete the contract and letting somebody to move in & live with you, does not mean having sex straight away. It would just mean she is under the care of the Prophet (p) instead of Abu Bakr now, and ready to learn the ways of the religion.

You should try thinking about it somewhat objectively before assuming such things are right.. Forget about your religious belief's for a moment and consider the idea of putting your own child in Aisha's position, aged nine (and menstruating) would the idea of some 50 year old man taking her to his bed sit comfortably with you?

Abu Bakr and his wife were not forced to do it. Read up on the actual events of the relationship of Abu Bakr, the Prophet and the other sahabah. Read up on marriage in that era. Read up on the context and don't only think about sex. I'm telling you there was wisdom behind it because I believe that the Prophet (p) was a true Messenger of God sent to mankind and I've read the context of the hadith and seerah. There are over a billion Muslims in the world. The reality is they do not see it from the same perverted perspective as you're seeing it from (that includes educated, Western reverts), so do a bit more research and write a thesis about it if your so passionate about the events of that marriage.

Simon.d wrote: »

To consummate a marriage means to have sex... Tis a bit petty of you to skew your argument by ommiting the most relevant dictionary definition... :rolleyes:

3. to complete (the union of a marriage) by the first marital sexual intercourse.

I was just showing you the other meanings of the word in a dictionary. Usually a hadith is more specific about even sex and she would have mentioned it. But the main issue is the real reasons behind the marriage and the life and status of 'Aisha(ra) in Islam. What is your theory exactly? elaborate...

Simon.d wrote: »

Muslims (in general) seem to be unable to denounce sexual intercourse between preteen (though menstruating) females and older men as immoral, viewing certain instances of statutory rape as morally acceptable..

This stems from Mohammed's relationship with Aisha, and as "the prophet" could do no wrong, his sexual relationship with a preteen pubescent girl is viewed by modern Muslims as being on a solid moral footing.. Yes it happened 1400 years ago, but the religious believe what God found morally acceptable back in the day, is also morally acceptable in the here and now..

That'd be my reckoning.. Do you agree?

So what you're saying is Muhammed(p) took 'Aisha(ra) shouting and screaming, against her parents will & the society at large, and raped her?! Is that your theory?

Firstly, It has been already explained to you that this was a practice before the Prophet(p) was even born; sexual maturity (16 onwards in the Western society according to you!) is different for different environments and eras. Her father would not have done it if it wasn't and the society would have seen it as strange. But you and a few other atheists are the only ones mentioning it now, even though you believe we don't abide by a moral duty (no accountability)!!

Secondly, the Prophet (p) was not 50, and some narrations say she was 13 or 16, etc. (basically when she was old enough to make her own decisions/mature); We don't take every single thing in hadith word for word as we do for the Noble Qur'an. The essence of the marriage is the most important thing in this hadith (and that is the life of 'aisha in Islamic History). You should seriously write an essay about this and send to me; you're missing a very big point in Islam. The main thing is the 'Aqeedah (Belief in a Creator, as revealed in the Qur'an). If you don't believe in the Creator and the Qur'an, you're obviously not going to understand the essence of certain events of the Prophet's life. End it there because we could argue all year! Good luck with your thesis...