Does this embarrass you when you hear things like this?

Flamed Diving

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/17/saudi.child.marriage/

Is there a real justification for this in the Koran? Who is right or wrong?

Jannah

Well does it embarrass YOU to hear THIS?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0121/roscommon.html

No matter what religion you are, there will always be injustice in the world. However, forcing people into marriages such as this is NOT Islamic- people have a right to say 'no' to their prospective suitors.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/cant_force_marriage.htm

Can a woman be forced into marriage in Islam?

Absolutely not! Let us look at what Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him said regarding this issue:
Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as having said: "A woman without a husband (or divorced or a widow) must not be married until she is consulted, and a virgin must not be married until her permission is sought. They asked the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him): How her (virgin's) consent can be solicited? He (the Holy Prophet) said: That she keeps silence. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 008, Number 3303)"
Allah Almighty said in the Noble Quran: "O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"
The following Saying is an explanation to Noble Verse 4:19:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: "About the Qur'anic verse: 'It is not lawful for you forcibly to inherit the woman (of your deceased kinsmen), nor (that) ye should put constraint upon them.' When a man died, his relatives had more right to his wife then her own guardian. If any one of them wanted to marry her, he did so; or they married her (to some other person), and if they did not want to marry her, they did so. So this verse was revealed about the matter. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 11, Number 2084)" So according to Noble Verse 4:19, a woman can not be forced into marriage by any mean.
Narrated AbuHurayrah: "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: An orphan virgin girl should be consulted about herself; if she says nothing that indicates her permission, but if she refuses, the authority of the guardian cannot be exercised against her will. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 11, Number 2088)"
Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar: "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Consult women about (the marriage of) their daughters. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 11, Number 2090)"
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: "A virgin came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and mentioned that her father had married her against her will, so the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) allowed her to exercise her choice. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 11, Number 2091)"
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A guardian has no concern with a woman previously married and has no husband, and an orphan girl (i.e. virgin) must be consulted, her silence being her acceptance. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 11, Number 2095)"
The above Noble Verse 4:19 and the Sayings of our beloved Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him clearly explain that according to Islam, whether the woman is virgin or not, her permission is a MUST. Her father or older brother can not force her into marriage as the Pagan Arabs and the Jews and Christians before Islam in the Middle East used to do; see Deuteronomy 25:5 in the Bible to see how women are forced into marriage.

Can the woman divorce herself from a forced marriage upon her?

As we've seen above, it is clearly forbidden in Islam to force women into marriage. But in case this ever should happen or have happened already to any woman, then Islam allows for her to divorce herself from the man she was forced to marry. Let us read the following:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: "A virgin came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and mentioned that her father had married her against her will, so the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) allowed her to exercise her choice. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 11, Number 2091)"
The choice that our beloved Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him gave to the woman is she can either remain married to the man, or divorce herself from him.

994

But didn't Muhammad marry one of his slaves? Can a slave really disobey her master by refusing?

studiorat

Jannah wrote: »

Well does it embarrass YOU to hear THIS?

LOL!!!

Flamed Diving

Jannah wrote: »

Well does it embarrass YOU to hear THIS?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0121/roscommon.html

Not really, because that has nothing to do with me. However, these people are using the same guidebook you are (if you are muslim). I just wonder why this kind of stuff is allowed to happen based on that book?

Jannah

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Not really, because that has nothing to do with me.

My point exactly. Since this practice is contrary to the rules of Islam, they are certainly not following the "same guidebook" as me. In fact, it is by going against its teachings that bad things may happen.

This has nothing to do with Muslims, because it is not a Muslim belief and forced marriages are not allowed in the Quran. It is the exact same thing as me blaming the Irish child protection service for the abuse that Roscommon woman inflicted on her children- they try their best to prevent it, they certainly don't condone it, but that doesn't mean it cannot happen in unfortunate circumstances.

Flamed Diving wrote: »

I just wonder why this kind of stuff is allowed to happen based on that book?

That's the thing- it ISN'T allowed.


As far as the whole slave/master relationship goes, their right to refuse marriage is exactly as valid as anybody elses. In fact, in a Nikka (wedding ceremony) the person to whom the proposal of marriage has been initiated is asked 3 times if they wish to marry this person.

Flamed Diving

Jannah wrote: »

My point exactly. Since this practice is contrary to the rules of Islam, they are certainly not following the "same guidebook" as me. In fact, it is by going against its teachings that bad things may happen.

This has nothing to do with Muslims, because it is not a Muslim belief and forced marriages are not allowed in the Quran. It is the exact same thing as me blaming the Irish child protection service for the abuse that Roscommon woman inflicted on her children- they try their best to prevent it, they certainly don't condone it, but that doesn't mean it cannot happen in unfortunate circumstances.



That's the thing- it ISN'T allowed.


As far as the whole slave/master relationship goes, their right to refuse marriage is exactly as valid as anybody elses. In fact, in a Nikka (wedding ceremony) the person to whom the proposal of marriage has been initiated is asked 3 times if they wish to marry this person.

So how come it happens then? Are they completely getting it wrong? Is it Islam gone mad or something?

Yogabba

But how old was Ayeesha when Mohammed married her?
She was 6, he was 54 and the marriage was consummated when she was 9.
Are you saying this was consensual?

And it is relevant surely because if your prophet did it, then why shouldn't everybody else do it?
Comparing it to the case in Roscommon is ludicrous -- how can you even draw parallels between something that the HSE and the child protection service messed up and failed to act on and something that is being sanctioned by a religious cleric?

ChocolateSauce

Jannah wrote: »

Well does it embarrass YOU to hear THIS?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0121/roscommon.html

No, why should it? It is a totally un-religious issue, unlike the topic at hand,

Hobbes

Flamed Diving wrote: »

So how come it happens then?

How come the other thing happens then? Because there are screwed up people in the world.

He has already pointed out that this goes against Islams teachings. What more do you want?

Yogabba wrote:

But how old was Ayeesha when Mohammed married her?
She was 6, he was 54 and the marriage was consummated when she was 9.
Are you saying this was consensual?

There is already a long thread on this, as well as links in the FAQ to read up on this which will answer your questions.

merrionsq

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

No, why should it? It is a totally un-religious issue, unlike the topic at hand,

Agreed. So instead of trying to point the finger in other directions, back to original question?

Even if its pointed out as being against the teachings of Islam, Sheikh Abdul Aziz Al-Sheikh is clearly an official authority on the teachings of Islam. He's a real life example, not a notional concept.

Jannah

Yogabba wrote: »

But how old was Ayeesha when Mohammed married her?
She was 6, he was 54 and the marriage was consummated when she was 9.
Are you saying this was consensual?

We went into this in a LOT of detail in a different thread, so let's not even get started on that one.

Yogabba wrote: »

Comparing it to the case in Roscommon is ludicrous -- how can you even draw parallels between something that the HSE and the child protection service messed up and failed to act on and something that is being sanctioned by a religious cleric?

Nope, indeed there are similarities. Once can ask- it is a rule in the HSE contrary to what actually is occuring- so why do atrocities like this happen? Now, think- it is a rule in the Qur'an contrary to what actually is occuring- so why do atrocities like this happen? And the answer is simple: free will. We can condemn something and use references which people are supposed to be following, but the fact of the matter is that everyone has free will and things like this do happen as a result of its abuse.

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

No, why should it? It is a totally un-religious issue, unlike the topic at hand,

It's not simply a religious issue, but a moral one. See above.

Hobbes wrote: »

How come the other thing happens then? Because there are screwed up people in the world.

Exactly. It is a lazy option to simply decide that "Muslims are bad, so they do x,y and z" - wouldn't life be so simple and black and white if we could blame everything on a country's religion?

Yogabba

Now, think- it is a rule in the Qur'an contrary to what actually is occuring- so why do atrocities like this happen?

They happen because a religious cleric condones it. Where in the HSE will you find an employer that condones child abuse???
Your comparisons don't hold up.
Also, if a good muslim should model himself on his prophet and his prophet married a child, well then...... (Yes I know it's been discussed before but it's still relevant to this thread)

Jannah

Well if you'd bothered to look at previous posts on the subject, you would know that Aisha's actual age is widely debated. The fact of the matter is, it she didn't want to marry the prophet, she was under no obligation to do so. There are many hadiths which prove that they had a very happy marriage and it wasn't the child raping paedophilic nonsense that people like to make it out to be.
As for 'condoning child abuse' - that's nonsense. Nowhere in the Qur'an does it say that people can rape children. Yet it does happen- EVEN- going back to my example- in Ireland. And who are you going to blame for that? She wasn't a Muslim- will you blame the fact that she is a Catholic for the fact that she raped her son? No. Of course not. Because when terrible things happen in the west, the finger is not automatically pointed at religion like it is in countries with Muslim majorities.

Yogabba

But you are missing the point. We are discussing the fact that a cleric IS condoning child abuse.
We are not talking about mistakes or deviations being made by individuals, we are talking about a so called spiritual (and probably influential) leader who is saying that this is ok.
And herein lies the difference -- you won't find anyone within the HSE or child protection service here in Ireland condoning what happened.
Can you really not see the difference???

So if someone rapes a child in Saudi Arabia (under the pretense of marriage) he will have the backing of a religious leader. Did this woman have that kind of backing?
And if this is the doing of individuals and not cultural/religious, how come it's not prevalent amongst the population here in the west?

The fact of the matter is, it she didn't want to marry the prophet, she was under no obligation to do so. There are many hadiths which prove that they had a very happy marriage

Are you defending the possibility of a six-year old marrying a 54-year old??

Jannah

Yogabba wrote: »

But you are missing the point. We are discussing the fact that a cleric IS condoning child abuse.

Just because he is a cleric doesn't mean that he cannot be corrupted and wrongly interpret Islam- it's only in recent years that people in Ireland are beginning to wake up to the fact that children were abused by clergy and that everyone was turning a blind eye to it- sound familiar?!

As far as the prophet being compared to him in concerned- it is completely different. Theirs was a consenting marriage and a very happy one at that- http://muslim-responses.com/Marriage_with_Aisha/Marriage_with_Aisha_
Indeed, if Muhammad was perverted towards younger people, why would he have married Khadijah when he was 25 and she was 40? He stayed with her without any other wife until her death and he was very upset by her passing

Yogabba wrote: »

So if someone rapes a child in Saudi Arabia (under the pretense of marriage) he will have the backing of a religious leader. Did this woman have that kind of backing?

No, and it is a violation of her rights in Islam. How many times will I have to say it? This clergyman isn't Islam incarnated as a human- he is a person with faults and an obviously very skewed and badly interpreted view of what is said in the Qur'an.

Yogabba wrote: »

And if this is the doing of individuals and not cultural/religious, how come it's not prevalent amongst the population here in the west?

For the same reason that we don't have FGM or high illiteracy rates- we've got a more developed society and a lot less poverty. Look at London for example- it has an enormous Muslim population, yet you don't see the same problems occuring

Yogabba wrote: »

Are you defending the possibility of a six-year old marrying a 54-year old??

Once again, read the post about this earlier- we're not getting into the same arguments again, because it has already been settled

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=53084584
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055057121

The Prophet Muhammad Says {Volume 9, Book 86, Number 101} Narrated by Aisha:" It is
essential to have the consent of a virgin (for the marriage)".

zulfikarMD

Yogabba wrote: »

But how old was Ayeesha when Mohammed married her?
She was 6, he was 54 and the marriage was consummated when she was 9.
Are you saying this was consensual?

And it is relevant surely because if your prophet did it, then why shouldn't everybody else do it?
Comparing it to the case in Roscommon is ludicrous -- how can you even draw parallels between something that the HSE and the child protection service messed up and failed to act on and something that is being sanctioned by a religious cleric?

Prophet Muhammed married Ayesha with her permission after she attained puberty at the agr of 9.Puberty is a biological sign which shows that a women is capable of bearing children. Can anyone logically deny this?
This is certainly not something that Islam invented,this has been the norm of cultures and nations.Today the civilized world considers same sex marriage perfectly legal so it is no wonder the natural bilogical permission for marriage seems to belong -primitive societies.

As to his alleged old age (he was the commander in chief of his army not a shabby saint with hanging skin).You should know Prophet-s marriage to Aishah was an exceedingly happy one for both of them.If you couple this with the fact that attaining the age of puberty varies with countries and races due to the climate, hereditary, physical and social conditions, you wouldnt be asking this question.

1400 years ago , women were not playing with dolls and they were much more mature both physically and mentally.

Just check the age of British Queens few centuries back.You will see that women getting married at early age is not an anonmoly or exception. It is a norm

etoile.co.uk/Columns/Paul/060129.html

King Edward II - His wife Isabella of France was 12 at the time of marriage
King Richard II - Married the daughter of daughter of King Charles VI of France,Isabella de Valois when she was 8
King Henry III -Mariied Eleanor of Provence when she was 13

Written by MICHELLE ROBERTS, Associated Press Writer
Thursday, 10 April 2008
More than 400 children of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints were taken into state custody - in what authorities described Monday as the largest child-welfare operation in Texas history.
A church compound of polygamists was filled with sexual abuse, say child welfare officers in court documents. One man married many girls (as soon as they could have babies) some giving birth while only 10 or 11 years old.

Check the peer reviewed journal below for more details on this

questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&se=gglsc&d=98501236

....since elite women generally married around the age of puberty or even earlier.....While certain biological and even psychological aspects of human de*velopment may be universal -- although sociologists, psychologists,
and historians debate this -- A study of the lives of elite women in England and France between 1050 and 1300 illustrates this reality.

ChocolateSauce

It's not simply a religious issue, but a moral one. See above.

It was an immoral act, but I don't subscribe to raping children. That is why it does not embarrass me. In what way can I be responsible for her actions? We don't share the same morals (I have them, she seemingly does not).

Hobbes

Yogabba wrote: »

But you are missing the point. We are discussing the fact that a cleric IS condoning child abuse.

I would have to go with the earlier comment in that just because it is a Cleric condoning child abuse does not mean he speaks for all of the Islamic faith. As I understand it the Islam faith doesn't even have it's version of a pope, so his comments would have less strength.

So if someone rapes a child in Saudi Arabia (under the pretense of marriage) he will have the backing of a religious leader. Did this woman have that kind of backing?

I put the main point in bold for you. The answer is probably yes they would have backing of a religious leader in Saudi Arabia. That is not reflective of muslims as a whole.

Are you defending the possibility of a six-year old marrying a 54-year old??

I don't see how he said that at all.

Simon.d

zulfikarMD wrote: »

Puberty is a biological sign which shows that a women is capable of bearing children. Can anyone logically deny this?

So what you're saying is that it's perfectly natural for grown men to have sexual intercourse with girls as young as 5, so long as they're capable of bearing children? Even 3 month old infants have been known to menstruate, how about them?

BuffyBot

As I understand it the Islam faith doesn't even have it's version of a pope, so his comments would have less strength.

I think this is a point a lot of people miss. There is no organised clergy in Islam (unlike in Catholicism etc) and as such anyone can be a "cleric" and have crackpot ideas. You only need enough supporters to back an idea (however crackpot) before it gets traction. This applies across all walks of life, not just in religion..

ChocolateSauce

Hobbes wrote: »

I put the main point in bold for you. The answer is probably yes they would have backing of a religious leader in Saudi Arabia. That is not reflective of muslims as a whole.

While I do agree with this, I also wouldn't underestimate the clout Saudi Arabia has. It is the birthplace of Islam and Mohammad and contains Mecca and Medina. They also hold themselves as the moral guardians of Islam, and their ways influence the ways of many.

zulfikarMD

Simon.d wrote: »

So what you're saying is that it's perfectly natural for grown men to have sexual intercourse with girls as young as 5, so long as they're capable of bearing children? Even 3 month old infants have been known to menstruate, how about them?

Please see entire text i have wrote and understand the context of it...its not only about puberty and sex by the way!

Simon.d

zulfikarMD wrote: »

Please see entire text i have wrote and understand the context of it...its not only about puberty and sex by the way!

I've read your text and don't see how I've taken you out of context.. You seem to be arguing that European monarchs have married young girls and therefore it's okay for Mohammed to do so.. I don't understand what you're trying to say, or why you think it benefits your argument by comparing a supposedly divine individual with some of the most morally corrupt people this world has produced..

If Aisha was five years old (like Lina Medina), would Mohammed have been within his moral right to have sexual intercourse with her (assuming he had the child's permission, and married her)?

Nodin

Simon.d wrote: »

I've read(.....her)?

What he's saying is that this was 1400 years ago, and social mores were rather different then than now. Its why the majority of the muslim world would look in askance at that kind of thing now. Generaly speaking only in the most isolated parts of the developing world (not nessecarily muslim parts either) does this go on. Whereas Saudi is not strictly in those parameters, its population is for the most part cut off from outside contact.

Grabbing a few oddballs and painting them as somehow representative of the whole Islamic world seems a rather shallow approach, IMO.

Simon.d

Nodin wrote: »

What he's saying is that this was 1400 years ago, and social mores were rather different then than now. Its why the majority of the muslim world would look in askance at that kind of thing now. Generaly speaking only in the most isolated parts of the developing world (not nessecarily muslim parts either) does this go on. Whereas Saudi is not strictly in those parameters, its population is for the most part cut off from outside contact.

Grabbing a few oddballs and painting them as somehow representative of the whole Islamic world seems a rather shallow approach, IMO.

I'm solely referring to Mohammed's actions with Aisha, not a few "oddballs". Yes social mores were different 1400 years ago, but the religious in this world like to see morality as an absolute and constant standard defined by their deity, and Muslim's view every action Mohammed made as right and just and as an example to be followed by all, which includes his sexual encounters with a young girl.

Muslims simply cannot admit to themselves that sexual relations between grown men and young pubescent girls are wrong, as doing so would compromise the moral authority of their "perfect" prophet..

994

Nodin wrote: »

What he's saying is that this was 1400 years ago, and social mores were rather different then than now.

I'm confused, isn't Muhammad titled, "the perfect man"? So surely he should act in accordance to God's eternal laws, not the laws of the society he happened to grow up in? Jesus, for example, lived in a society that was violent, unequal and cruel, but preached a message of mercy, forgiveness, compassion and equality. Mohammad fought wars; Jesus forbade them. Muhammad had sex with children; Jesus said one who harms a child deserves to be drowned. Muhammad said adulterers should be killed; Jesus actively intercedes between a mob and an adulteress condemned to death. Muhammad owned slaves, for God's sake. If your the greatest person who has ever lived, it's hardly an acceptable defence to say, "Everyone else is doing it! They all said it was OK!"

zulfikarMD

Simon.d wrote: »

I've read your text and don't see how I've taken you out of context.. You seem to be arguing that European monarchs have married young girls and therefore it's okay for Mohammed to do so.. I don't understand what you're trying to say, or why you think it benefits your argument by comparing a supposedly divine individual with some of the most morally corrupt people this world has produced..

If Aisha was five years old (like Lina Medina), would Mohammed have been within his moral right to have sexual intercourse with her (assuming he had the child's permission, and married her)?

you have mentioned in your earlier post that even 3 months old infant have menstruate but does it mean she is mature? my argument is based on maturity and puberty both.

zulfikarMD

994 wrote: »

I'm confused, isn't Muhammad titled, "the perfect man"? So surely he should act in accordance to God's eternal laws, not the laws of the society he happened to grow up in? Jesus, for example, lived in a society that was violent, unequal and cruel, but preached a message of mercy, forgiveness, compassion and equality. Mohammad fought wars; Jesus forbade them. Muhammad had sex with children; Jesus said one who harms a child deserves to be drowned. Muhammad said adulterers should be killed; Jesus actively intercedes between a mob and an adulteress condemned to death. Muhammad owned slaves, for God's sake. If your the greatest person who has ever lived, it's hardly an acceptable defence to say, "Everyone else is doing it! They all said it was OK!"

Do you know history of islam? Do you know events which took place during the time of prophet and after his demise? if yes, you would argue whether Prophet was false in his action and Jesus was 100% right.

Simon.d

zulfikarMD wrote: »

you have mentioned in your earlier post that even 3 months old infant have menstruate but does it mean she is mature? my argument is based on maturity and puberty both.

Would you allow a 50 year old man to marry your own "mature" 9 year old daughter? Would you feel comfortable about such an arrangement? What if she was 7 years old with this grown up personality, what then? (Again assuming she was pubescent at such a young age)

Nodin

Simon.d wrote: »

I'm solely referring to Mohammed's actions with Aisha, not a few "oddballs". Yes social mores were different 1400 years ago, but the religious in this world like to see morality as an absolute and constant standard defined by their deity, and Muslim's view every action Mohammed made as right and just and as an example to be followed by all, which includes his sexual encounters with a young girl...

Beats me, I'm an athiest. All I'm saying is that to judge that kind of thing 1,400 years ago by todays standards is a rather pointless exercise.

Simon.d wrote: »

Muslims simply cannot admit to themselves that sexual relations between grown men and young pubescent girls are wrong, as doing so would compromise the moral authority of their "perfect" prophet..

Well as the majority of them don't engage in such relations, I'd imagine the answer is rather more complex.

994 wrote:

I'm confused, isn't Muhammad titled, "the perfect man"? So surely he should act in accordance to God's eternal laws,(.....)!" ..

Which copy of Gods eternal laws are you going by? The Christian, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh....?

Simon.d

Nodin wrote: »

Beats me, I'm an athiest. All I'm saying is that to judge that kind of thing 1,400 years ago by todays standards is a rather pointless exercise.

I'm not judging that kind of thing based on todays standards.. I'm simply asking a Muslim to denounce it, based on todays standards and admit a 50 year old man having sex with a 9 year old girl is wrong... Which I doubt I'll achieve, as Islam as a whole is dependent on the idea of Mohammed being a perfect person, incapable of doing wrong.. Meaning mental cartwheels will be carried out any believer to resist coming to such a conclusion..

Nodin wrote: »

Well as the majority of them don't engage in such relations, I'd imagine the answer is rather more complex.

Indeed, and I think, as members of modern society, many muslims realise such encounters are morally corrupt, but their need to maintain strong belief in the truth of islam distorts rational into coming to terms with such conflicts of thought.. i.e. Aisha had the mind of an adult because she never got to play with dolls...

Nodin

A muslim denounce Mohammed? Nope. Nor are they going to say anything that might be taken as such.

(As an aside, I personally think that this kind of debate within Islam has been held back, given the amount of politically motivated 'Muslim bashing' thats been around for the last few years)

Yogabba

Puberty is a biological sign which shows that a women is capable of bearing children. Can anyone logically deny this?

Can anyone logically deny that a 9-year old girl is still a child, both physically and emotionally???????
And can anyone logically deny, that there are certain decisions that children are not mature enough to make?

I cannot believe that people seem to think that a child would actually consent to have intercourse. What do they know about it?
And why on earth would a grown man *want* to sleep with a child anyway?

The mind boggles.

Jannah

Nodin wrote: »

All I'm saying is that to judge that kind of thing 1,400 years ago by todays standards is a rather pointless exercise.

Thank you! Finally, someone has grasped the idea of it!

It is so typically western that we would think that our way is the only and best way. The same goes for things like multiple wives etc - just because it's not in our society, people see it as being 'wrong' yet for many people it really does work.

When looking at Muhammad's marriage to Aisha, we must take into account:
the culture of that time- the Virgin Mary was said to be 14 when she gave birth to Jesus and she was married to her uncle- why is Joseph not portrayed as being depraved?
Muhammad's highly regarded social position
the fact that Aisha had previous marriage requests
Muhammad had previously been married to an older woman- happily and monogomously- for many years until she died
Muhammad married Aisha at 6 (according to some sources) and didn't consumate their marriage until she was a woman in the biological sense- if he was a paedophile he would have had sex with her beforehand
Aisha's marriage to Muhammad was always portrayed as a happy one and she mourned his death greatly
Now people will obviously start saying "Ah well, obviously he'll say it was a happy marriage" but she also contributed and had a very active life within the foundation of Islam

Simon.d wrote: »

I'm simply asking a Muslim to denounce it

Then you'd better look elsewhere, cos I'm not a Muslim. Anyway, what business is it of yours what others choose to believe? I hate this elitist Dawkins loving crap that if you're not an atheist then you must be a moron and that everyone has to think like that- it's ridiculous. At the end of the day, there will always be religion and differing points of view and there's no use being self righteous and snotty just because people's beliefs don't fit into your ideas. I don't think anyone should have to judge the situation on today's standards because it didn't HAPPEN in today's world. As was said before, it's a useless exercise. And Islam doesn't teach that Muhammad was perfect - that'd be Jesus you're confusing him with. Muhammad was human. Simple as. Nobody needs to do mental cartwheels, they just need to assess the situation objectively

Yogabba wrote: »

Can anyone logically deny that a 9-year old girl is still a child, both physically and emotionally???????

Physically- no, she was not a child. In Islamic society a girl is a woman when she starts having periods, and Aisha had. Emotionally- the only historical sources we have are the Qur'an and Hadiths and Aisha has always been presented as a mature and capable young woman. Make of it what you will, in the end nobody will ever know 100% what was going on in everyone's heads at that time. At this time women were married at this age and that was that- luckily for her, it turned out to be a happy marriage.

Yogabba

Physically- no, she was not a child. In Islamic society a girl is a woman when she starts having periods, and Aisha had.

So do you think it is still ok for a 9 year old to get married and have 'consensual' sex with a much older man, as long as she has gotten her periods? I mean in today's society?

Simon.d

Jannah wrote: »

It is so typically western that we would think that our way is the only and best way. The same goes for things like multiple wives etc - just because it's not in our society, people see it as being 'wrong' yet for many people it really does work.

Are you suggesting it's a good thing for a society to have 50 year old men having sex with preteen pubescent girls?

Jannah wrote: »

When looking at Muhammad's marriage to Aisha, we must take into account:
the culture of that time

Why do we have to take "the culture of the time" into account?.. Subscribers to islam would be of the opinion that what God thought were moral acts 1400 years ago, are still moral acts today.. Morality is considered constant in the eyes of most religious..

Jannah wrote: »

The Virgin Mary was said to be 14 when she gave birth to Jesus and she was married to her uncle- why is Joseph not portrayed as being depraved?

Most Christians (as far as I'm aware) actually believe Mary never had sex with Joseph (or anyone for that matter), hence being termed "The Virgin Mary", so I don't see what parallel you're trying to draw here...

Jannah wrote: »

Muhammad married Aisha at 6 (according to some sources) and didn't consumate their marriage until she was a woman in the biological sense- if he was a paedophile he would have had sex with her beforehand

That's ridiculous logic.. A nine year old girl isn't a woman full stop.. Is five year old Lina Medina a woman for the same reasons?

Jannah wrote: »

Then you'd better look elsewhere, cos I'm not a Muslim.

As a non-muslim do you think such things are wrong?

Jannah wrote: »

Anyway, what business is it of yours what others choose to believe? I hate this elitist Dawkins loving crap that if you're not an atheist then you must be a moron and that everyone has to think like that- it's ridiculous. At the end of the day, there will always be religion and differing points of view and there's no use being self righteous and snotty just because people's beliefs don't fit into your ideas.

You're coming across a bit self-righteous and snotty yourself... Anyhow, the beliefs of other members of Irish society is my business, as such beliefs have an impact on the society I live in.. Especially if said beliefs leads to an acceptance of such a serious criminal offence, i.e. statutory rape..

Jannah wrote: »

Physically- no, she was not a child. In Islamic society a girl is a woman when she starts having periods, and Aisha had.

So you believe that Lina Medina (a five year old child who also had her period) was an adult aged five?

Nodin

Simon.d wrote: »

Are you suggesting it's a good thing for a society to have 50 year old men having sex with preteen pubescent girls?

I don't think that such a thing has been suggested by any poster here.

Simon.d wrote: »

Why do we have to take "the culture of the time" into account?.. Subscribers to islam would be of the opinion that what God thought were moral acts 1400 years ago, are still moral acts today.. Morality is considered constant in the eyes of most religious..

Yet the vast majority of them wouldn't approve. In areas where it does happen it seems to be a legacy of a tribal patriarchal culture, and any justification from Islam is rather after the fact.

Simon.d wrote: »

Most Christians (as far as I'm aware) actually believe Mary never had sex with Joseph (or anyone for that matter), hence being termed "The Virgin Mary", so I don't see what parallel you're trying to draw here...

God & a 1st century 14 year old...not really a relationship of equals.

Simon.d wrote: »

You're coming across a bit self-righteous and snotty yourself... Anyhow, the beliefs of other members of Irish society is my business, as such beliefs have an impact on the society I live in.. Especially if said beliefs leads to an acceptance of such a serious criminal offence, i.e. statutory rape.. ...

Not going to happen though, is it? And seeing as this kind of thing occurs in certain parts of the Christian and Hindu world, yet nobody gets too pushed about that, I have to wonder if this is just more Islamophobic nonsense...

Flamed Diving

Nodin wrote: »

Not going to happen though, is it? And seeing as this kind of thing occurs in certain parts of the Christian and Hindu world, yet nobody gets too pushed about that, I have to wonder if this is just more Islamophobic nonsense...

Does anyone else smell faeces?

Simon.d

Nodin wrote: »

In areas where it does happen it seems to be a legacy of a tribal patriarchal culture, and any justification from Islam is rather after the fact.

Indeed, and as you've mentioned child marriages occur under the guise of many religious denominations in the rural impoverished extremities of the globe. But that's not the issue I'm discussing... I'm taking issue with the idea that members of Modern Irish society seem to be unable denounce the statutory rape of pubescent preteen children.. It's quite a legitimate concern I would think..

Jannah

Yogabba wrote: »

So do you think it is still ok for a 9 year old to get married and have 'consensual' sex with a much older man, as long as she has gotten her periods? I mean in today's society?

But that's the problem- we're not talking about today's society. Trying to judge Muhammad's marriage to Aisha isn't comparable to today's norms. That's why I'm not going to even go down that road- it's like bitching about why Moses didn't use a ring binder for the ten commandments instead of slabs of rock- you just can't take these situations, impose them into our time and culture and judge them that way!

Simon.d wrote: »

Most Christians (as far as I'm aware) actually believe Mary never had sex with Joseph (or anyone for that matter), hence being termed "The Virgin Mary", so I don't see what parallel you're trying to draw here...

Oh PLEASE! So I'm sure he married Mary for the sole purpose of NOT having sex with her? And when he threatened to divorce her after he found out she was pregnant he wasn't REALLY annoyed because he didn't intend on impregnating her himself ANYWAY... come off it.

Simon.d wrote: »

That's ridiculous logic.. A nine year old girl isn't a woman full stop.. Is five year old Lina Medina a woman for the same reasons?

You know why Lina Medina has a wikipedia page, Simon? Because her case is so flipping bizarre! It's impossible to compare her to your average girl that you would see on a daily basis for the simple fact that she is exceptional. In Aisha's time it was the norm to marry early as it meant financial security for her and her family, avoided the possibilities of fornication and unwanted pregnancies (like Lina had) which could have led to her being completely ostracised from her communitiy and she was all the better for it because she had a happy marriage, a loving husband and made a real contribution to Islam- something I can't say for the Christian faith where women aren't seen as doing much other than being pregnant virgins. Oh, and lets not forget the fact that if any more books where written by them into the bible they were edited out and all that remains are crappy little short snippets which only talk about bearing sons and the like.

Simon.d wrote: »

So you believe that Lina Medina (a five year old child who also had her period) was an adult aged five?

In the physical sense, she was an adult- as was capable of having children (which she did- out of wedlock- which pretty much shows the terrible consequences of not either protecting or marrying young women who reach puberty) The fact is that Aisha was not only physically a woman, but also mentally- she helped on battle fields and wrote her own surahs!! Does this sound like the work of a child to you?

Simon.d wrote: »

I'm taking issue with the idea that members of Modern Irish society seem to be unable denounce the statutory rape of pubescent preteen children.. It's quite a legitimate concern I would think..

In fairness, I have yet to meet an Irish Muslim who thinks that women should get married the minute they have their periods- just like many decades ago when women were married early, times have moved on. Before there was no need for a woman to get educated because she was only going to have children anyway and need to care for them by herself, but now that she does you only need look at colleges to see the fairly substantial amount of Muslim women (particularly in the medical field) who are partaking along with everyone else. Have you ever heard of a Muslim woman marrying before the age of 18 here? You must have if it's such a 'legitimate concern'...

Nodin

Simon.d wrote: »

I'm discussing... I'm taking issue with the idea that members of Modern Irish society seem to be unable denounce the statutory rape of pubescent preteen children.. It's quite a legitimate concern I would think..

Who are these people....?

Placebo

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Does anyone else smell faeces?

You seem to portray this ignorance for the 'muslim' religion, where as you're clearly just here to stir ****, If the matter boggles you're precious mind that much, perhaps use google to find your facts.

Does it embarrass you to read things like this ?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/25/pope-benedict-richard-williamson

What a priest of a religion says or deems is 'correct' doesn't stay true for the rest of the priests/popes/religion followers. Get a clue

Simon.d

Jannah wrote: »

Have you ever heard of a Muslim woman marrying before the age of 18 here? You must have if it's such a 'legitimate concern'...

If some particular group of people in this society believed that "aggressively beating some random stranger to death" was a morally acceptable thing to do, would it concern you? Would you wait until they actually acted and "aggressively beat some random stranger to death" before becoming concerned?

Reiterating my actual concern;
If some particular group of people in this society believed that "sexual intercourse between grown men and pubescent preteen children" was a morally acceptable thing to do, would it concern you? Would you wait until they actually acted and "sexual intercourse between grown men and pubescent preteen children" occured before becoming concerned?

Again this is an extreme comparison, and I don't actually think such things would occur in this society.. But the point I'm trying to make is that if it did, islam (as it stands) could be used to justify it (much like that case in saudi) as subscribers to the religion find it difficult to denounce such things as immorral with them believing that their prophet did it, so it must be ok!. I'm not islamophobic or christianophobic or any unfoundedbeliefophobic, I'm just highlighting a moral stance within a belief system, that is at odds with the moral code of the society I live in.. And it quite obviously is, ask 99.9% of people on the street if they think it is morally acceptable for a 50 year old man to have sex with a 9 year old girl and they will be repulsed by the notion, regardless of context..

Some factions within islam are questioning the authenticity of the Hadith containg this reference to Aisha's young age, revising the commonly held belief that Mohammed had sex with a child, which would be a healthy route for the rest of the religion to follow methinks..:

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

Aisha was 18 when she married the Holy Prophet (saw). Aisha's older sister died at 73 A.H at 100 years old. She was 10 years older then Aisha. That means Aishas sister was 27 years old at the time of the Hijra which means that Aisha, being 10 years younger was 17. This proves she was 18 years old. when she married the Holy Prophet (saw)

This rubish that she was 10 is a total lie. Some weak hadits are fabricated during the Islamic med evil age known by Muslims as "the time of ignorence" which we are still coming out of. Christianity went trough the same type of age.

Also "Bakar" is an arab word meaning Virgen! The word can also mean girl, as in child. Aisha was at 18 a virgen. But some people who do not understand arabic grammer took it as meaning "girl". This is incorrect.

Jannah

Simon.d wrote: »

Some factions within islam are questioning the authenticity of the Hadith containg this reference to Aisha's young age, revising the commonly held belief that Mohammed had sex with a child, which would be a healthy route for the rest of the religion to follow methinks..:

If you read the links I gave to you, you would have already realised that I am aware that many people are questioning the authenticity of the Hadith, especially Aisha's age. Nobody actual knows her real age, and I have told you that previously. Many believe she was 18, many 9, many 6 - the simple fact is that it is her contribution to Islam and not her sexual endeavors that mark her real legacy in Islam.

It seems that you still don't understand the concept that Muhammad's marriage to Aisha didn't occur within the same kind of society as we have today and therefore isn't something that would be beneficial to modern believers. It is more important for women to be educated these days and because of longer life spans and the difference of their role in society, girls aren't under pressure to become mentally mature as quickly as they needed to in a time of wars, early deaths and lots of responsibility.It would repulse people today because it is not the norm- yet at the time of Muhammad it was a common occurance.

I have already outlined my reasons why he did not conduct this marriage out of sexual depravity (in particular, the example of his marriage to Khadijah). Aisha was already destined to be married and what better home than with a kind man who could support her. Marriages back then weren't the whirlwind romances they are today which often begin because of physical attraction. Theirs was a marriage which was much deeper than that and age didn't entite and equally didn't deter either of them from entering this partnership.

Simon.d

Jannah wrote: »

Many believe she was 18, many 9, many 6 - the simple fact is that it is her contribution to Islam and not her sexual endeavors that mark her real legacy in Islam.

I really don't care about her legacy.. I don't care what society was like back then, all I care about at this moment is the moral stance of modern day muslims on this issue.. You continually dodge my point.. Please just answer this one question, with a yes or no answer, no ifs, buts, or whatever..

Do you think it is morally acceptable for a 50 year old man to has sexual intercourse with a 9 year old girl?

Yes or No

I know you're not a muslim (yet), but please answer the question anyhow...

Jannah

Simon.d wrote: »

I really don't care about her legacy.. I don't care what society was like back then, all I care about at this moment is the moral stance of modern day muslims on this issue.. You continually dodge my point.. Please just answer this one question, with a yes or no answer, no ifs, buts, or whatever..

Do you think it is morally acceptable for a 50 year old man to has sexual intercourse with a 9 year old girl?

Yes or No

I know you're not a muslim (yet), but please answer the question anyhow...

Do you think it's morally acceptable for someone to steal?
Oooh no!

What if that person was poor and starving?
Oh then yes, it's okay

What if that person had no need to steal and was stealing from the elderly and the disadvantaged?
Then it isn't




See? Sometimes things aren't as black and white as they may appear. I refuse to be bullied into giving an answer to a matter out of context. If you don't care about the context, or the society or even whether the marriage was a happy one or not, then you obviously mustn't care about her age at marriage either.

Simon.d

Jannah wrote: »

Do you think it's morally acceptable for someone to steal?
Oooh no!

What if that person was poor and starving?
Oh then yes, it's okay

What if that person had no need to steal and was stealing from the elderly and the disadvantaged?
Then it isn't

See? Sometimes things aren't as black and white as they may appear. I refuse to be bullied into giving an answer to a matter out of context. If you don't care about the context, or the society or even whether the marriage was a happy one or not, then you obviously mustn't care about her age at marriage either.

Fair enough... Context can matter and it obviously does in the scenario I proposed to you.. This implies that you do find the idea of 50 year old men having sex with 9 year girls morally acceptable within a certain context (so we're getting somewhere!).. Which is the concern I've been alluding to all along, and as I've said I'd be quite sure that the vast majority of Irish society would find such an Idea morally repulsive regardless of context..

Could you please define the context that makes the idea of elderly men having sexual intercourse with 9 year old girls sit comfortably with you. Please fill in the blanks!

1. Marriage between said 9 year old and elderly gentleman..
2. Girl has menstruated..
3. Girl decided she wanted to engage in said sexual relationship
4. _________________
5. _________________
6. _________________
7. _________________
8. _________________

Jannah

Simon.d wrote: »

Fair enough... Context can matter and it obviously does in the scenario I proposed to you..

Finally! That's all I wanted. And if you seriously think I'm going to degrade myself by filling in your ridiculous 'fill in the blanks', you'd wany to think again. I'm not 5, unless you haven't noticed. I've already told you my opinion and you're obviously never going to be satisified with what I'm going to say. At this stage, I'm bored of you.

Simon.d

Jannah wrote: »

Finally! That's all I wanted. And if you seriously think I'm going to degrade myself by filling in your ridiculous 'fill in the blanks', you'd wany to think again

Sorry , was a bit much I admit..

Jannah wrote: »

I'm not 5, unless you haven't noticed.

Well you could be for all I know... As you've implied Aisha was fighting battles and writing Surahs aged nine, surely someone of her mature mind could debate these theological issues aged 5?

Anyhow, I think I've had enough myself,

Regards!

Agathon

Simon.d wrote: »

Well you could be for all I know... As you've implied Aisha was fighting battles and writing Surahs aged nine, surely someone of her mature mind could debate these theological issues aged 5?

Who said she had sex with the prophet(p) when she was 9?