Why has that slimeball Eamon Gilmore got the highest approval rating?

Boskowski · 13-02-2009 05:01PM

seamus wrote: »

Labour would have less interest in making massive cuts and more interest in increasing our taxation in line with the amount we spend and in line with our European neighbours.

We expect far too much from our public services in comparison to our rate of taxation. There are only two ways to sort out our financial crisis: Drastically reduce services or massively increase taxation. We pay only a tiny amount of tax, particularly when you take the size and configuration of our population into account.

The aim should be to massively increase our rate of direct taxation to bring money into the country and reduce our indirect taxation to increase the affordability of goods and services.

And what's that going to change? Things will get a little cheaper as VAT goes down which will be eaten up by retailers greed mostly anyway. But in return we will have a lot less money to spend.

I don't think it's going to change much. You can have either big direct taxes and less indirect ones or vice versa. I reckon that the latter has a better chance to get the economy back on its feet.

Public finances are in shambles because we pay fortunes to 'consultants', on tribunals and generally waste a lot of money on very high up position in the public sector. Why the **** would a resigned financial regulator who is close to retire anyway get a 680k handshake. Fkn ridiculous.

Oh, back to the topic at hand.

Your man is so popular because he says what people want to hear at the moment. Or rather he's not saying what people don't want to hear. Which unfortunately isn't entirely honest.

Bloody labour ye, why not tax the **** out of everyone so that we can play hard ball with the few remaining employers and consequently are able to afford to feed 1 million people on the dole....

ShagNastii · 13-02-2009 05:39PM

I'm A-political. In general believe, pound for pound, Labour probably has the most able bunch of politicians from my expiriences and any time they have called to the house looking for votes. They seem to be the only ones who actually gave a sh1te

seamus · 13-02-2009 06:31PM

realcam wrote: »

I don't think it's going to change much. You can have either big direct taxes and less indirect ones or vice versa. I reckon that the latter has a better chance to get the economy back on its feet.

We have three choices:

1. We can pay high tax and have good public services and use most of our private money for non-essentials.
2. We can pay low taxes and have nothing except essential public services such as security and rely on private companies to supply almost everything in life.
3. We can pay average taxes and accept that our public services will never be brilliant.

The problem is that we want the public services of 1., we want the tax of 2., but in reality our situation is 3. and we're unhappy about it. There are "overpaid" consultants because the government has been trying to pretend that our services are world-class and therefore require world-class wages, when in reality we don't have the money to provide world-class services. What we would have to accept with increased taxation is that private progress will never boom like it did before. When taxation is high, private wealth builds or falls slowly over time. When taxation is low, private wealth tends to boom and bust.

We've been falling somewhere in between for a long time but we're not happy with that. So it's time for the Irish people to **** or get off the pot: Do you want good public services or do you want pure capitalism?

There are no policies we can enact which will suddenly save our economy. We're at the mercy of international markets. All we can do right now is structure our economy properly. And that means massive cuts in public services or massive increases in direct taxation.

thebigcheese22 · 13-02-2009 06:49PM

seamus wrote: »

We have three choices:

1. We can pay high tax and have good public services and use most of our private money for non-essentials.
2. We can pay low taxes and have nothing except essential public services such as security and rely on private companies to supply almost everything in life.
3. We can pay average taxes and accept that our public services will never be brilliant.

The problem is that we want the public services of 1., we want the tax of 2., but in reality our situation is 3. and we're unhappy about it. There are "overpaid" consultants because the government has been trying to pretend that our services are world-class and therefore require world-class wages, when in reality we don't have the money to provide world-class services. What we would have to accept with increased taxation is that private progress will never boom like it did before. When taxation is high, private wealth builds or falls slowly over time. When taxation is low, private wealth tends to boom and bust.

We've been falling somewhere in between for a long time but we're not happy with that. So it's time for the Irish people to **** or get off the pot: Do you want good public services or do you want pure capitalism?

There are no policies we can enact which will suddenly save our economy. We're at the mercy of international markets. All we can do right now is structure our economy properly. And that means massive cuts in public services or massive increases in direct taxation.

+ 1 Excellent post.

SoupyNorman · 13-02-2009 06:50PM

The shear arrogance of Cowen and Lenihen is sickening, the public cannot relate with them, they have put up a wall between themselves and the tax payer. Bertie was a man of the people and he always seemd to reflect the mood of the economy.

The current leaders attitude and demeanour is driving the public into Gilmore and dare I say Kenny's bosom?(maybe thats too far).

TBH, a general election would only push the dirt around because they are all a bunch of self absorbed Dickheads and you have to wonder how much passion they would have for the job if you took away the expense account and halved their salary.

irish_bob · 13-02-2009 06:51PM

seamus wrote: »

We have three choices:

1. We can pay high tax and have good public services and use most of our private money for non-essentials.
2. We can pay low taxes and have nothing except essential public services such as security and rely on private companies to supply almost everything in life.
3. We can pay average taxes and accept that our public services will never be brilliant.

The problem is that we want the public services of 1., we want the tax of 2., but in reality our situation is 3. and we're unhappy about it. There are "overpaid" consultants because the government has been trying to pretend that our services are world-class and therefore require world-class wages, when in reality we don't have the money to provide world-class services. What we would have to accept with increased taxation is that private progress will never boom like it did before. When taxation is high, private wealth builds or falls slowly over time. When taxation is low, private wealth tends to boom and bust.

We've been falling somewhere in between for a long time but we're not happy with that. So it's time for the Irish people to **** or get off the pot: Do you want good public services or do you want pure capitalism?

There are no policies we can enact which will suddenly save our economy. We're at the mercy of international markets. All we can do right now is structure our economy properly. And that means massive cuts in public services or massive increases in direct taxation.

the reason we have poor facilities in schools and hostpitals is because the bulk of the funds are spent on wages , we have the highest wages for nurses in europe , we have one of the highest wages for teachers in europe , were less money to be spent on teachers wages and instead spent on class rooms , we wouldnt have the highest teacher per pupil ratio in europe , if less money was spent on nurses wages , we would have more money for beds in hospitals

spoonbadger · 13-02-2009 06:55PM

Because he's a good alternative to that slimeball Brian Cowen, and that other slimeball Enda Kenny?

.

thebigcheese22 · 13-02-2009 07:01PM

irish_bob wrote: »

the reason we have poor facilities in schools and hostpitals is because the bulk of the funds are spent on wages , we have the highest wages for nurses in europe , we have one of the highest wages for teachers in europe , were less money to be spent on teachers wages and instead spent on class rooms , we wouldnt have the highest teacher per pupil ratio in europe , if less money was spent on nurses wages , we would have more money for beds in hospitals

Sources? You can't just bandy out stats like that when it comes to an important issue.
And I'd pay nurses as much as possible coz they're the cornerstone of our health service. Ditto with our teachers and the education system.

me_right_one · 13-02-2009 07:18PM

shamblertine wrote: »

he knows difficult, unpopular decisions have to be made, yet he has proved that he is not capable of making any such decisions, and will instead just jump on the bandwagon by deriding the decisions the government are making without putting forward any opinions and thoughts for how things could be handled better

How has he not proved capable? He's never had the chance! He put forward some of the best opinions I've heard in the dail for a long time, like his idea to take this opportunity to build some badly needed schools, and upgrade our environmental infrastructure while we have tonnes of unemployed tradesmen only too happy to work!

Here's an idea that will be unpopular and difficult (NOT!): Why dont we employ the government the way they employ private companies/businesses - Here's an example of a job advertisement:

We, The Irish People inc., seek 1 accountant, 1 doctor, 1 civil engineer, 1 teacher etc. and 1 team manager/spokesperson/liason to work as part of a team which will be known as "the government!". Your job will be to oversee the everyday running of our national company. Your qualifications will be relevant to your particular position, and not related to party affiliation, popularity (or lack of!), nepotism, or ability to talk sh1te.

You will answer directly to the Irish people. Renumeration will be minimum wage, and upon 6 monthly review of performance, you may earn a bonus proportional to work done. Total annual salary including bonus will not exceed E40K. Perks include company car, position of trust and respect (if job done well), and fame in the annals of history

Love of Ireland is a must. Any squabbling for the sake of it will result in immediate termination of contract. So will any incompetance, fraud, cronism, party politics, feathering of own nest, or whatever action(s) the Irish people deem to be unworthy to be part of the team. Since this is a position of high responsibility, any breach of contract or action resulting in termination of contract will be punishable by imprisonment.

CV's to...........

Lockstep · 13-02-2009 07:22PM

I met Eamon Gilmore just after he became Labour party leader and he was saying the same stuff as he is now.

It seems people like to label him a "populist" (someone who says whatever they need to do to get elected) because others are coming around to his way of thinking.
I guess it's easier to accept that he;s a populist than the fact that Labour might actually be right about something.

ongarite · 13-02-2009 07:28PM

thebigcheese22 wrote: »

Sources? You can't just bandy out stats like that when it comes to an important issue.
And I'd pay nurses as much as possible coz they're the cornerstone of our health service. Ditto with our teachers and the education system.

Around 50% of total government department budgets is spent on wages & pensions but in health that figure jumps to 60% of total budget which is totally out of control.
The HSE budget has doubled in the last 10 years but huge percentage of it, is spent paying wages instead of new hospitals, equipment, keeping wards open.

Health absorbs one in every four euro of government spending, a €14.9 billion this year alone. Over 60 per cent of that is spent on wages.

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2008/10/12/story36679.asp

shamblertine · 13-02-2009 07:41PM

me_right_one wrote: »

How has he not proved capable? He's never had the chance! He put forward some of the best opinions I've heard in the dail for a long time, like his idea to take this opportunity to build some badly needed schools, and upgrade our environmental infrastructure while we have tonnes of unemployed tradesmen only too happy to work!

and where's the monies going to come from to pay for all of that?

The_Minister · 13-02-2009 07:55PM

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I met Eamon Gilmore just after he became Labour party leader and he was saying the same stuff as he is now.

It seems people like to label him a "populist" (someone who says whatever they need to do to get elected) because others are coming around to his way of thinking.
I guess it's easier to accept that he;s a populist than the fact that Labour might actually be right about something.

How can they be onto something when their suggestions all involve paying out massive sums of money on projects, when we are broke.

It's the policy equivalent of telling a homeless person to get a job.

dfx- · 13-02-2009 08:37PM

Because the current bluster is to not vote FF and if you wouldn't vote FF, why would you vote FG. It's either that or the flying spaghetti monster party (fsmp).

So I'm applying to become fsmp election co-ordinator:cool:

seamus · 13-02-2009 09:12PM

irish_bob wrote: »

the reason we have poor facilities in schools and hostpitals is because the bulk of the funds are spent on wages , we have the highest wages for nurses in europe , we have one of the highest wages for teachers in europe , were less money to be spent on teachers wages and instead spent on class rooms , we wouldnt have the highest teacher per pupil ratio in europe , if less money was spent on nurses wages , we would have more money for beds in hospitals

Although the package for teachers and nurses and so forth is good, they're not exactly rolling in money. They're getting paid a lot because the rest of us are too.

It's not sufficient to say, "cut their wages". Then you basically condemn those with the most responsibility for our society, to life on the lower financial rung. All the good classrooms in the world are useless if the teachers have no morale and are stressing about paying their bills this month.

If we want good healthcare, good teachers and good Gardai, we need to pay them the same as what the rest of us get paid, but critically we should aim to make their budgets as unlimited as possible. That way we have happy civil servants who are adequately resourced. Of all the state organs, Health, Education and Security are the most important for economic and social stability. We can have a public sector who run these well, or we can have a private sector who run these well. At the moment we have a public sector who try their best to be the best but just don't get enough money.

Boskowski · 13-02-2009 09:46PM

thebigcheese22 wrote: »

Sources? You can't just bandy out stats like that when it comes to an important issue.
And I'd pay nurses as much as possible coz they're the cornerstone of our health service. Ditto with our teachers and the education system.

Argh. On the same grounds you could pay street sweepers or guards a fortune. I don't buy that 'cornerstone of our society', that's a lot of bull. Nurses are glorified carers changing bedpans, giving injections and changing dressings unless they are specialised like theatre nurses or something. Same with teachers. Both very respectable and educated and whatnot jobs and should be properly paid no doubt but certainly not more important than a fireman or someone working as an engineer in water supply. Everybody is important in a society. Some more some less but the medical profession is overpaid, the legal profession is overpaid and upper administration & management levels in some public services are grossly overpaid. Ireland has a funny tradition it seems of some very well protected and very well looked after professions, closed clubs so to speak. You only get in with ridiculous grades you get (comparably) huge money from the start with no experience whatsoever and everybody thinks they're the bee knees. What the **** is so special about a pharmacist or someone operating an x-ray machine? Nothing someone who qualifies for a proper engineering degree couldn't be taught either.

But back to the topic.

The problem with FF or FG or Labour is that it won't make a difference.

With Ireland it's the same problem that I have seen in my home country. No political party has the guts to make proper structural changes that would be needed because they may piss off vested interests, lobby groups, you name it. So when changes are needed they dont make them but rather find a few bucks where they think they going to get the least resistance at the time and potter along until they have to do it again. As a politician if you were intending to change something that really stirs things up for the better but may piss off some vested interests, well then you'd never get into the position to change things in the first place. This is how democracy works apparently, not good but that's it.

Why when everything is in the **** and the public service needs money was there never anything heard about a proper HSE reform? Not that it was guaranteed to raise enough money to forget about the public service paycut altogether but now would be the time to do it. But it ain't going to happen and that's why.

irish_bob · 13-02-2009 10:23PM

seamus wrote: »

Although the package for teachers and nurses and so forth is good, they're not exactly rolling in money. They're getting paid a lot because the rest of us are too.

It's not sufficient to say, "cut their wages". Then you basically condemn those with the most responsibility for our society, to life on the lower financial rung. All the good classrooms in the world are useless if the teachers have no morale and are stressing about paying their bills this month.

If we want good healthcare, good teachers and good Gardai, we need to pay them the same as what the rest of us get paid, but critically we should aim to make their budgets as unlimited as possible. That way we have happy civil servants who are adequately resourced. Of all the state organs, Health, Education and Security are the most important for economic and social stability. We can have a public sector who run these well, or we can have a private sector who run these well. At the moment we have a public sector who try their best to be the best but just don't get enough money.

thier is so much wrong with this post , im not sure where to start , il just adress a few of the ludicrious points

when you say teachers and nurses and gardai need to be paid the same amount as the rest of us , who are the rest of us , a seargant earns over 60 k a year , most dont earn that
you also seem to believe that if we didnt continue to make our nurses the highest paid in europe , they might then give someone a shot of sianide instead of morphine , its a bizzare logic to think that the only thing that maintains standards within a proffesion is monetery return

thier was a letter from an irish man who lives in australia to the irish indo the other day , the crux of his letter was a comment on the wages in ireland , he explained that the average cop in australia earns 33 thousand euro per year where as in ireland the average cop earns over 60 k , ireland is not a richer country than australia even our wages are presently higher

wages are out of whack across the board and thier will have to be a major readjustment if the country is to sort out its woes , this country was to property what saudi arabia is to oil this past number of years , well guess what , if the saudis ran out of oil , they would not be wiping their asses with 20 dollar bills anymore

me_right_one · 13-02-2009 11:44PM

shamblertine wrote: »

and where's the monies going to come from to pay for all of that?

Eh, its the money the unemployed tradesmen are already getting called "the dole", except you are getting some work done for giving it out.

me_right_one · 14-02-2009 12:05AM

seamus wrote: »

Although the package for teachers and nurses and so forth is good, they're not exactly rolling in money. They're getting paid a lot because the rest of us are too.

It's not sufficient to say, "cut their wages". Then you basically condemn those with the most responsibility for our society, to life on the lower financial rung. All the good classrooms in the world are useless if the teachers have no morale and are stressing about paying their bills this month.

If we want good healthcare, good teachers and good Gardai, we need to pay them the same as what the rest of us get paid, but critically we should aim to make their budgets as unlimited as possible. That way we have happy civil servants who are adequately resourced. Of all the state organs, Health, Education and Security are the most important for economic and social stability. We can have a public sector who run these well, or we can have a private sector who run these well. At the moment we have a public sector who try their best to be the best but just don't get enough money.

What planet are you living on lad? "The rest of us" are 10% unemployed, and the rest of "the rest of us" are barely clinging onto our jobs, taking pay cuts, re-arranging shift patterns, reducing hours and none of us have 3 months holidays, free uniforms, or guaranteed work every Monday morning! Might you secretly be a civil servant??????? FFS, unlimited budget? You're off your head. +1 to your post Irish bob

Lockstep · 14-02-2009 12:07AM

The_Minister wrote: »

How can they be onto something when their suggestions all involve paying out massive sums of money on projects, when we are broke.

It's the policy equivalent of telling a homeless person to get a job.

And yet, FDR bailed out the Americans after a Depression.
Attlee implemented a welfare state in an almost bankrupt Britain post WWII.

And we still have the money to inject into banks or to give high pensions to financial regulators.

Mycroft H · 14-02-2009 12:16AM

In my opinion there are 4 able people in dail today - joan bruton, richard bruton, eamon gilmore and john gormly. They seem to be the only ones that are not talkin through their backsides.

realcam wrote: »

Bloody labour ye, why not tax the **** out of everyone so that we can play hard ball with the few remaining employers and consequently are able to afford to feed 1 million people on the dole....

You basing that on past experiences?? Sure everything was sh!te in the eighties and not just labour.....

You got to look at it objectivly. If there was a general election tomorow i would vote labour as they seem to be talking sense and i wouldnt trust the other crowd (ff or fg) to lead us out of the financial pile of sh!te were in now.

shamblertine · 14-02-2009 01:20AM

me_right_one wrote: »

Eh, its the money the unemployed tradesmen are already getting called "the dole", except you are getting some work done for giving it out.

So the government will just phone up all these lads and say "by the way, instead of sitting around on your hole all day watching ironside and jeremy kyle, you have to go out and build a few schools, we aren't going to give you any more money but I'm sure you don't mind, sure it'll get you out of the house for a while anyway." And if the unemployed tradesmen were to say "ok that sounds reasonable", where is the money for the administration and management of these projects going to come from?

Min · 14-02-2009 01:30AM

I think a lot of people would like an alternative to whole lot in the Dáil.

We certainly don't need this Democratic Left-over.....

brianthebard · 14-02-2009 01:41AM

The_Minister wrote: »

Populists always rise at a time like this.

WTF are FF so??

OPENROAD · 14-02-2009 03:11AM

landyman wrote: »

You got to look at it objectivly. If there was a general election tomorow i would vote labour as they seem to be talking sense and i wouldnt trust the other crowd (ff or fg) to lead us out of the financial pile of sh!te were in now.

But what are Labour policies? we don't hear a whole lot on what they would do if government, have Labour actually come out and said we would do x,y and z if elected.

I agree with you re: Richard Bruton, he does come across very well and while FG are polling well, I still feel they are being held back by Kenny, when I think of FG, I think Richard Bruton not Enda Kenny. But again I would like to hear more about policy from FG and Labour.

me_right_one · 14-02-2009 08:38AM

shamblertine wrote: »

So the government will just phone up all these lads and say "by the way, instead of sitting around on your hole all day watching ironside and jeremy kyle, you have to go out and build a few schools, we aren't going to give you any more money but I'm sure you don't mind, sure it'll get you out of the house for a while anyway." And if the unemployed tradesmen were to say "ok that sounds reasonable", where is the money for the administration and management of these projects going to come from?

Pretty much, its been done before. As an extra incentive, the dole money you recieve will not affect the amount of stamps you have paid. And I dont know about watching Jeremy Kyle, I'd say most people are preparing CV's at this stage. There would be feckall more administration than there already is, and any extra money spent on these projects would be money well spent, an investment for the future AND jobs for the present. It beggars belief the govt. didnt upgrade all the schools etc when the country was swimming with money instead of squandering it all on the SSIA scheme!

irish_bob · 14-02-2009 11:16AM

brianthebard wrote: »

WTF are FF so??

us irish revel in populism in both good times and bad , it fits in very well with our collective capacity for denial

labour havent put forward a single specific proposal , when i hear posters in here claim they are talking the most sense , it furthers my belief of our capacity as a nation to engage in denial

Craft25 · 14-02-2009 11:30AM

'Cos when Biffo made his 'Big Speech' in the Dail a few weeks ago on the economy & the cuts to public service pay, Enda Kenny blew his chance to make a good response & then Gilmore capitalised big time...

loadsa people were watchin de telly = highest approval rating

seamus · 14-02-2009 12:13PM

irish_bob wrote: »

when you say teachers and nurses and gardai need to be paid the same amount as the rest of us , who are the rest of us , a seargant earns over 60 k a year , most dont earn that

A Sergeant is the equivalent of a 2nd level manager. 60k sounds about normal for that level. Industry-depending obviously but a 2nd level management job typically pays between 50 and 75k.

you also seem to believe that if we didnt continue to make our nurses the highest paid in europe , they might then give someone a shot of sianide instead of morphine , its a bizzare logic to think that the only thing that maintains standards within a proffesion is monetery return

Although paying lower wages will tend to get more people who are interested in the work as opposed to the money, wages which are not in line with the rest of the country will discourage the best people - vocation or not, people will still generally pick jobs that pay best. We need to maintain their wages close to the average, which is where they are now.

thier was a letter from an irish man who lives in australia to the irish indo the other day , the crux of his letter was a comment on the wages in ireland , he explained that the average cop in australia earns 33 thousand euro per year where as in ireland the average cop earns over 60 k , ireland is not a richer country than australia even our wages are presently higher

Our cost of living is about twice theirs, as someone already said. I also doubt that the "average" cop gets 60k. You've already said that a sergeant gets 60k. So which is it?

wages are out of whack across the board and thier will have to be a major readjustment if the country is to sort out its woes , this country was to property what saudi arabia is to oil this past number of years , well guess what , if the saudis ran out of oil , they would not be wiping their asses with 20 dollar bills anymore

You know what, I'm not disagreeing that our wages need to come down across the board, but as others have been experiencing, massive cuts in a person's salary cause financial strife. Civil servants have been getting incremental increases over the past number of years, it's only fair that we give them the same benefit of incremental decreases in line with deflation rather than swinging cuts across the board.

me_right_one wrote: »

What planet are you living on lad? "The rest of us" are 10% unemployed, and the rest of "the rest of us" are barely clinging onto our jobs, taking pay cuts, re-arranging shift patterns, reducing hours and none of us have 3 months holidays, free uniforms, or guaranteed work every Monday morning! Might you secretly be a civil servant??????? FFS, unlimited budget? You're off your head. +1 to your post Irish bob

The "rest of us" are barely clinging onto our jobs? That's true for way less than half of the workforce. Recession or no, most of us aren't danger of losing our jobs except where we're exposed to affected industries. Stop listening to the media doom mongers and get a grip on reality.

I'm not the biggest fan of civil servants by a long shot, but trying to curtail services in health, education and security is shooting ourselves in the foot in a big way.

ninebeanrows · 14-02-2009 01:03PM

It's probably because Eamon Gilmore is the best leader out of the 3 parties!

Enda Kenny is Enda Kenny.

Brian Cowen is Brian Cowen!!!

Eamon Gilmore comes across as a decent and intelligent block.

Why has that slimeball Eamon Gilmore got the highest approval rating?

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