What do you have to do to get convicted of murder these days?

12-02-2009 05:35PM

cornbb wrote: »

So now its "PC" if you are against murder :rolleyes:

yes if you replace "murder" with "kill a ward in self defense"

my government tells me it's wrong to kill (politcally correct)

my primitive instinct is kill to survive (not so politically correct)

Svalbard · 12-02-2009 05:36PM

Dudess wrote: »

No, not "making your life a misery" - making you fear for your life.

You have to put yourself in Nally's shoes - how could he have been rational and reasonable at that point in time? To compare this to a cold-blooded murder case is inappropriate, IMO.

If not murder, would you agree it was an unlawful killing?

12-02-2009 05:38PM

Svalbard wrote: »

Oh thank God. Up to now I thought a few intelligent rational fellow citizens were engaging me in debate. I now see you are morally bankrupt racists and there is no point in arguing with you. What a relief.

i don't really consider them people.

people contribute to society. dogs don't contribute to society.

Pub07 · 12-02-2009 05:38PM

cornbb wrote: »

The comparison stands. The question at hand is "is it ok to take someone else's life because they are making your life a misery?" and the answer is no in either case (unless there is an immediate threat to your own life). Fearing for your own life is irrelevant. Plenty of awful drivers on the roads make me seriously fear for my life but that doesn't make killing them ok either.

There was more to it than making his life a misery. Maybe you didnt read the stories in the papers around this time about what was happening to old people in these isolated rural areas, many were assaulted during robberies by travellers and some were even killed. Nallys life was potentially in danger when this guy decided to target him. And when Nally ended up getting the better of him after a confrontation there was not a chance in hell that this guy would not come back and kill him. I mean, seriously, do you expect us to believe that this traveller who was as violent and dangerous as they come would not have exacted revenge on Nally? What fantasy land are you living in?

cornbb · 12-02-2009 05:39PM

Dudess wrote: »

I disagree strongly. As I said, I think people are underestimating what Nally was going through.

I disagree entirely with this "what would you do in his shoes?" mentality. Although we have not been through what he went through (and I'm sure it was terrifying)

It is not "ok" but it's understandable to a degree

I agree with you there - but the fact that he wasn't under extreme emotional stress doesn't negate the fact that he killed a man in cold blood.

you have to remember how he was driven to it.

Saying "i was driven to it" has never been an acceptable defence as far as I'm aware. I'm aware that Nally was under extreme pressure and felt threatened but surely that shouldn't justify murder?

It's not like he made the decision to go out and hunt Ward down and put a gun to his head - you have to consider how he got caught up in the moment.

Killing someone on the spur of the moment is second degree murder (as opposed to premeditated killing which is first degree murder). Its still defined as murder, in either case.

Pub07 · 12-02-2009 05:39PM

Svalbard wrote: »

Oh thank God. Up to now I thought a few intelligent rational fellow citizens were engaging me in debate. I now see you are morally bankrupt racists and there is no point in arguing with you. What a relief.

I'll give you morally bankrupt but where is the racism? My gf is non-national, Im as unracist as you get.

Pub07 · 12-02-2009 05:41PM

Deleted User wrote: »

That is not a valid comparison to be honest(very tabloidy), he got involved in a fight which escalated out of control, he wasn't picked on for no reason.

There are tons of fights up and down this country every weekend, how many of them end up with someone getting kicked to death by a group of rugby players twice their size?

Local-womanizer · 12-02-2009 05:44PM

Wasent Nally being harrased over a time of a few years?

I know at one point he was so afraid he stayed in his shed with his shotgun at nights.And Frog ward had gained entry to his house on numerous occasions.

The way I see it is that Nally was driven to murder,there is no way an old man would be able to defend himself against a middle aged man using resonable force tbh.

Its all fine and dandy for us to be saying we would have done it this way or that,but we were not under the strees this old man was.

cornbb · 12-02-2009 05:44PM

Pub07 wrote: »

There was more to it than making his life a misery. Maybe you didnt read the stories in the papers around this time about what was happening to old people in these isolated rural areas, many were assaulted during robberies by travellers and some were even killed.

Really, who was killed? And by who? By Ward?

Nallys life was potentially in danger when this guy decided to target him.

My life is "potentially in danger" every time I walk across the street. Killing someone because there's a vague possibility they might kill you is not acceptable in civilised society!

And when Nally ended up getting the better of him after a confrontation there was not a chance in hell that this guy would not come back and kill him. I mean, seriously, do you expect us to believe that this traveller who was as violent and dangerous as they come would not have exacted revenge on Nally? What fantasy land are you living in?

You are basing your defense of Nally's actions around pure speculation. Do you have any respect for laws at all or do you think we should all go around killing people based on hunches and fear?

12-02-2009 05:44PM

Pub07 wrote: »

There are tons of fights up and down this country every weekend, how many of them end up with someone getting kicked to death by a group of rugby players twice their size?

I love the twice their size comparison.Where did you get this or were you basing it on the fact that one of them was a rugby player.Plus he died of Apnoea!;)

Svalbard · 12-02-2009 05:46PM

Pub07 wrote: »

I'll give you morally bankrupt but where is the racism? My gf is non-national, Im as unracist as you get.

I was lumping you in with the other guy, sorry. Sorry to hear your gf has no nationality, maybe marry her so she can be Irish.:D

cornbb · 12-02-2009 05:50PM

Pub07 wrote: »

I'll give you morally bankrupt but where is the racism? My gf is non-national, Im as unracist as you get.

I'm not accusing you of racism, but I would bet everything I own that Nally would be in jail today if he had killed anyone other than a traveller.

Irish people aren't particularly racist in most respects I think, but attitudes towards the travelling community are shocking and would shock most of the rest of the civilised world too. This is evidenced by prejudice in this thread and elsewhere, by jokes about selling gates, calling them dogs and extensive use of the word "knacker" to describe travellers. (most of those posts have thankfully been deleted).

Its exactly the same as calling blacks "****", calling Pakistanis "pakis" or whatever. People abhor the last two words, and rightly so, but for some reason its still ok to say "knacker". Its exactly the same thing folks.

Svalbard · 12-02-2009 05:51PM

Pub07 wrote: »

What racial slur? I'm unaware of this separate race of people who are natives of this country, what is this other race?

Interesting. I remember seeing a documentary that said Travellers are descended from the Roma. But wikipedia doesn't seem to agree.

cornbb · 12-02-2009 05:55PM

Pub07 wrote: »

What racial slur? I'm unaware of this separate race of people who are natives of this country, what is this other race?

Maybe they are defined as an "ethnic minority" or whatever. Just because they have the same colour skin doesn't mean they are the same race or ethnicity as the settled community. They have customs, traditions, and a history that is very distinct. So they are ethnic slurs, racial slurs, whatever you want to call them.

12-02-2009 05:55PM

cornbb wrote: »

I'm not accusing you of racism, but I would bet everything I own that Nally would be in jail today if he had killed anyone other than a traveller.

Irish people aren't particularly racist in most respects I think, but attitudes towards the travelling community are shocking and would shock most of the rest of the civilised world too. This is evidenced by prejudice in this thread and elsewhere, by jokes about selling gates, calling them dogs and extensive use of the word "knacker" to describe travellers. (most of those posts have thankfully been deleted).

Its exactly the same as calling blacks "****", calling Pakistanis "pakis" or whatever. People abhor the last two words, and rightly so, but for some reason its still ok to say "knacker". Its exactly the same thing folks.

Is Tinker still acceptable?

cornbb · 12-02-2009 05:57PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Is Tinker still acceptable?

I have no idea.

12-02-2009 06:00PM

cornbb wrote: »

I have no idea.

I suppose though that neither Tinker or Knacker applies to them anymore seeming as their main income from where I live is drug dealings.Its amazing seeing the aul Range Rover in the halting site and the lad who owns it not even having a junior cert to his name.

12-02-2009 06:00PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Is Tinker still acceptable?

probably not..

is it "geographically displaced" or something that's the right term? can't remember

javaboy · 12-02-2009 06:00PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Is Tinker still acceptable?

Look it up in Wikipedia and you'll see that Boards is actually referenced.

UrbanSea · 12-02-2009 06:00PM

CiaranC wrote: »

Murder is planned and premeditated.

That is true,although in my opinion carrying a knife counts as premeditated.It isnt as if he found one on the ground beside him.
No this should have been done for murder,whichever coward carries a knife and then uses it and says they didnt mean to is a liar.Carrying a knife is intent to harm and ultimately murder in my opinion.

cornbb · 12-02-2009 06:08PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I suppose though that neither Tinker or Knacker applies to them anymore seeming as their main income from where I live is drug dealings.Its amazing seeing the aul Range Rover in the halting site and the lad who owns it not even having a junior cert to his name.

Regardless of what you call them, do you think it is ok to make assumptions about a person based on what ethinicity/race they are?

Put it this way - if you were born a traveller (not something you choose obviously) and led a good life as a traveller, would you be happy about the assumptions that people make about you and prejudices they hold against you, based on their opinion of your ethic background?

murfie · 12-02-2009 06:09PM

cornbb wrote: »

.........They have customs, traditions, and a history that is very distinct.........

:rolleyes: Yes your right, their customs and traditions include but not limited to, stealing, trespassing, blackmail, assault, incest, rape, murder........etc etc etc.

12-02-2009 06:13PM

cornbb wrote: »

Regardless of what you call them, do you think it is ok to make assumptions about a person based on what ethinicity/race they are?

Put it this way - if you were born a traveller (not something you choose obviously) and led a good life as a traveller, would you be happy about the assumptions that people make about you and prejudices they hold against you, based on their opinion of your ethic background?

I wouldn't be me if I was born a traveller, I agree some travellers lead a good lifestyle but I reckon they are in the minority.

Pub07 · 12-02-2009 06:18PM

cornbb wrote: »

My life is "potentially in danger" every time I walk across the street. Killing someone because there's a vague possibility they might kill you is not acceptable in civilised society!

It would've been unnacceptable to kill him when he first targetted Nally because as you say killing someone who is potentially a threat is unnacceptable. I agree with you 100% there. The thing it was gone well beyond a vague possibilty after they had a confrontation during which Ward was injured. It was a certainty.

Let me ask you this, in your opinion, do you think Ward would not have taken revenge? Yes or no.

You are basing your defense of Nally's actions around pure speculation. Do you have any respect for laws at all or do you think we should all go around killing people based on hunches and fear?

As I said, it was gone beyond speculation when he beat the crap out of him. Go ask someone in the guards who has experience dealing with criminals of Wards calibre, someone living in the real world, what they think he wouldve done if Nally hadn't shot him.

Pity your man Ward didn't have any respect for the law or he mightn't have been targetting an old farmer in an isolated area and end up getting killed by him.

cornbb · 12-02-2009 06:25PM

Pub07 wrote: »

It would've been unnacceptable to kill him when he first targetted Nally because as you say killing someone who is potentially a threat is unnacceptable. I agree with you 100% there. The thing it was gone well beyond a vague possibilty after they had a confrontation during which Ward was injured. It was a certainty.

Let me ask you this, in your opinion, do you think Ward would not have taken revenge? Yes or no.

The only answer I can honestly offer is "I don't know" - any other answer would be based on speculation, and I don't think its right to take someone's life based on a hunch.

As I said, it was gone beyond speculation when he beat the crap out of him. Go ask someone in the guards who has experience dealing with criminals of Wards calibre, someone living in the real world, what they think he wouldve done if Nally hadn't shot him.

Even the opinion of a well-informed garda would still be speculation. In any case, it would be a matter of killing someone for something that they might do, how is that acceptable in any circumstance?

Pity your man Ward didn't have any respect for the law or he mightn't have been targetting an old farmer in an isolated area and end up getting killed by him.

Ward should have been harshly punished for what he did but not by getting shot dead in the back. I can see why people say "he got what he was coming to him" but that doesn't mean it was fair or just. No-one came out a winner in this case, whereas if the law had dealt with Ward and put him behind bars at least we could say that justice was done.

Dudess · 12-02-2009 06:45PM

Svalbard wrote: »

You can end this argument here and now by telling me exactly when it is ok to kill a man, tell me exactly where the line is to be drawn.

As I said, I'm not saying what Nally did was ok but it's understandable when the trigger for it was sheer terror.

Deleted User wrote: »

my government tells me it's wrong to kill (poliitcally correct)

Seriously, learn what "politically correct" means...

Svalbard wrote: »

If not murder, would you agree it was an unlawful killing?

I would indeed. But do you examine each murder on a case by case basis or do you apply a blanket set of rules to the crime known as murder? Do you not consider the circumstances? I mean, the Rachel O'Reilly killing was murder - can you compare that to the Nally/Ward case? In my opinion you can't.
I'm not saying what Nally did was right, but I do think his circumstances should be taken into consideration.

cornbb wrote: »

Saying "i was driven to it" has never been an acceptable defence as far as I'm aware. I'm aware that Nally was under extreme pressure and felt threatened but surely that shouldn't justify murder?

There are mitigating circumstances here, and it's not as if Nally plotted a killing like e.g. Joe O'Reilly. Nally's situation doesn't justify murder but it can lead to it - the man was pushed to breaking point. I shudder to think about what kind of terror he was going through.

cornbb wrote: »

I'm not accusing you of racism, but I would bet everything I own that Nally would be in jail today if he had killed anyone other than a traveller.

I'm not so sure - someone who subjects a vulnerable person to a campaign of terror over a prolonged period of time would be seen as a scumbag, irrespective of background.

Irish people aren't particularly racist in most respects I think, but attitudes towards the travelling community are shocking and would shock most of the rest of the civilised world too. This is evidenced by prejudice in this thread and elsewhere, by jokes about selling gates

I don't see anything damaging about that joke.

Svalbard wrote: »

Interesting. I remember seeing a documentary that said Travellers are descended from the Roma. But wikipedia doesn't seem to agree.

I don't see how it's "racist" to slag off travellers - casting ethnic slurs, yes.

cornbb wrote: »

Put it this way - if you were born a traveller (not something you choose obviously) and led a good life as a traveller, would you be happy about the assumptions that people make about you and prejudices they hold against you, based on their opinion of your ethic background?

Look, it's a fact there are problems endemic within traveller society - yes indeed there are some wonderful people who are travellers, I have met such people, but I think they should be far more pissed off at the people who ruin the reputation of their community than some ignoramuses from the settled community.

12-02-2009 06:50PM

Dudess wrote: »

Seriously, learn what "politically correct" means...

fitting for your signature.

i know what it means, that was a slip in description.

Jeapy · 12-02-2009 07:02PM

cornbb wrote: »

Really, who was killed? And by who? By Ward?

Ever heard of Eddie Fitzmaurice? Maybe educate yourself on what was REALLY going on in the area (Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, Sligo) at the time. It might give you an insight into Frog Ward's behaviour.

conlonbmw · 12-02-2009 07:04PM

Deleted User wrote: »

probably not..

is it "geographically displaced" or something that's the right term? can't remember

Brilliant:D

Love your posts, we should go into politics together.

Frog Ward had 17 convictions and 4 bench warrants, when he went to rob Nally for the 6th time, the real figure is much higher, we had a John McDonagh once with over 100 separate ID's on Pulse.

Every convicted creamy has at least more than 2 alias's. Thats why the names are so similar and you see siblings with the same first name.

Dudess · 12-02-2009 07:06PM

It doesn't mean he deserved to die though, it just makes what Nally did more understandable.

What do you have to do to get convicted of murder these days?

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