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public/civil servants im going to run you over...

13567…16

Comments

  • #62
    hobochris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,163 ✭✭✭hobochris


    steof1984 wrote: »
    I dont wanna get involved in arguing Public vs Private again (seems like thats been the only debate on boards for the past 2 weeks)

    I will ask though

    Glaston, TwintyTwo, Delop

    If the public sector is such a great place to work where you earn a fortune for doing nothing . Why did you never apply ?
    that's actually a good point.

    Must look into this myself.


  • #63
    RasTa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,111 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    jim o doom wrote: »
    not really; what I said was the levy should be higher for those who get paid a lot more.. and lower for those who get paid less, is that really so hard to understand, that you need to "interpret" it as a rant?


    No it shouldn't, you should have being forced to take a 10% pay cut at all levels.


  • #64
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    I dont get what the public service is compaining about. They are being made pay for their pension, instead of getting it for free. This is the way everyone else has to do it. What am I missing?

    Also, my mate works in the Department of finance, and I asked him how this would affect him. He said it will result in him having 4.5% net less take home pay, but he is getting a 7% increment to his salary in March! Apparently he just gets these increments twice a year automatically or something. And people wonder why the private sector resents them.


  • #65
    hobochris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,163 ✭✭✭hobochris


    In reality the real solution should be reform the public sector so that only those that need to be there are there and get rid of the unnecessary administration and consultants. In these times the dossers need to be removed from the public service.

    Then,

    a PAYE Hike across all sectors relevant to your salary band.That way everyone pays what they can afford and obviously the well paid will be taxed more as they can afford it.

    but of course that would make to much sense for this government to do.


  • #66
    twinytwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    steof1984 wrote: »
    I dont wanna get involved in arguing Public vs Private again (seems like thats been the only debate on boards for the past 2 weeks)

    I will ask though

    Glaston, TwintyTwo, Delop

    If the public sector is such a great place to work where you earn a fortune for doing nothing . Why did you never apply ?

    I am currently finishing off college... but my plans after would be to start my own business thus creating jobs if all goes well. I would this because i like the challange it would bring. Like i have already said there is no real drive in the CS because ones job is safe so why bother just tip along.

    But i am willing to accept the pros and cons of the private sector


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  • #67
    Lu Tze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,533 ✭✭✭Lu Tze


    steof1984 wrote: »
    If the public sector is such a great place to work where you earn a fortune for doing nothing . Why did you never apply ?

    I had the option several years ago, the pay was better in the public sector, but i had spent a couple of months in a L.A. as a student and i think you hit the nail on the head as to why i didn't join as a graduate, i would go insane "doing nothing" as you put it.

    The challenge just isn't there, there is no innovation, no motivation, and despite the shakiness of my job, i still odn't regret the choice.

    I see the public sector as something i may retire into.


  • #68
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 27,498 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    twinytwo wrote: »
    Like i have already said there is no real drive in the CS because ones job is safe so why bother just tip along.

    That's an interesting approach to deciding whether to work hard or not.


  • #69
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    spurious wrote: »
    That's an interesting approach to deciding whether to work hard or not.
    For those of us in the private sector there is no 'deciding'. You work or youre out.


  • #70
    RATM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,591 ✭✭✭RATM


    Biggins wrote: »
    Yep and as long as we are infighting too, we are diostracted away from taking actions against those really responsible.

    Has many read 1984 where part of the sub-plot was a never ending war, to keep the populace distracted away from the actually inner-workings of the government and their daily actions!

    'And Oceania was always at war with Eurasia'

    God that man Orwell was a true visionary, hard to believe he wrote that book as far back as 1949.

    Agree with you there Biggins, there seems to be a smokescreen being put up by the media to make people blame the public service for the mess we are in.

    If there's going to be protests it should be a collective action against the bankers and politicans, just like Iceland, instead the divide and rule tactics of the ruling elite are working a treat and people are too busy arguing amongst themselves to notice that they've been had.


  • #71
    delop
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 490 ✭✭delop


    steof1984 wrote: »
    I dont wanna get involved in arguing Public vs Private again (seems like thats been the only debate on boards for the past 2 weeks)

    I will ask though

    Glaston, TwintyTwo, Delop

    If the public sector is such a great place to work where you earn a fortune for doing nothing . Why did you never apply ?

    I didn't apply because what I do is is not a function of the public service.

    Now dont get me wrong, Im sure if I was in the public sector all my life Id be standing shoulder to shoulder with public sector workers, I woudlnt know any better. Its just human nature that ppl will fight for their own corner....

    What drives me nutz is that people in the public sector are so called 'Public servants' in that a long time ago when they were Joining the sector they must have had some deep sense of public service!

    But somewhere along the line the Public service lost the ideals of their industry, and became as selfish as the bankers we should expect nothing more of...


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  • #72
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    CiaranC wrote: »
    For those of us in the private sector there is no 'deciding'. You work or youre out.

    Or increasingly these days: you work, and you're out anyway.


  • #73
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    RATM wrote: »
    'And Oceania was always at war with Eurasia'

    God that man Orwell was a true visionary, hard to believe he wrote that book as far back as 1949.

    Agree with you there Biggins, there seems to be a smokescreen being put up by the media to make people blame the public service for the mess we are in.

    If there's going to be protests it should be a collective action against the bankers and politicans, just like Iceland, instead the divide and rule tactics of the ruling elite are working a treat and people are too busy arguing amongst themselves to notice that they've been had.
    The trouble with that is that we voted this ruling elite into place time after time, like the sheep that we are. We were happy to join them in their greed when it was to our benefit.


  • #74
    Smart Bug
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭Smart Bug


    CiaranC wrote: »
    I dont get what the public service is compaining about. They are being made pay for their pension, instead of getting it for free. This is the way everyone else has to do it. What am I missing?

    Also, my mate works in the Department of finance, and I asked him how this would affect him. He said it will result in him having 4.5% net less take home pay, but he is getting a 7% increment to his salary in March! Apparently he just gets these increments twice a year automatically or something. And people wonder why the private sector resents them.


    This is an example of the ignorance running through most posts in this thread. It seems that the vast majority of the media in this country are willfully engaged in a campaign of misinformation, or else the general populace is remaining willfully ignorant of the facts involved in this 'debate'. Yet again I find myself posting some some facts:

    - The public sector already pays for it's pension
    - Lower paid public sector workers are paying more of this levy (as a percentage of overall gross pay) than those on higher scales (senior management)
    - Part of the levy agreement include a clause whereby senior management (and TDs) get a pay increase before the levy comes into play
    - Those working in the banking sector enjoy most of the same working conditions civil servants do (career breaks (paid in the case of AIB), flexi time, comparable pay)
    - The 7bn guarantee plan for the banks is being taken from the National Pension Fund - which affects everybodys pensions
    - If a civil servant takes a career break they may only return to work at the discretion of the Department they leave - in this current climate if you take a career break it's tantamount to retirement
    - You only get one increment a year - determined by performance
    - The level of your increment is dependent of your grade and ranges from 0.5% to 8% of your pay

    Any more facts anyone wants cleared up, then PM me.

    And OP, I'll be bringing a bag of bricks along to any strike I attend so if you wanna run us over, expect a brick in the face.


  • #75
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 27,498 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    stovelid wrote: »
    Or increasingly these days: you work, and you're out anyway.

    As is happening in many schools.
    The blanket myth of 'safe' public service jobs simply is not true.


    Oh, but don't let that stop anyone repeating it.


  • #76
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    spurious wrote: »
    As is happening in many schools.
    The blanket myth of 'safe' public service jobs simply is not true.


    Oh, but don't let that stop anyone repeating it.
    Thanks for clearing the previous up. Can someone else clarify that the public service pay for their pensions in the same way I do?

    So the idea that public servants are more secure in their jobs is false then?


  • #77
    jim o doom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭jim o doom


    RasTa wrote: »
    No it shouldn't, you should have being forced to take a 10% pay cut at all levels.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=58987678#post58987678

    As per the above post; in between the years 2000 the sec gen received a97% pay rise from 121,431 (at max earning after about 12 years service) to 235,550, whereas a low paid person received a an increase of 51.7% increase from 24,779 (at max earning after about 12 years service) to 37,584.

    So the highest paid who have a LOT of money received a 97% raise, fully twice the amount of the lowest paid, who at their higest wage earn a FRACTION of what the bosses get, should ALL received a 10% pay cut?

    Many of the lowest paid STRUGGLING with mortgages, and those on massive wages swanning around in big fat expensive cars with 2nd homes, travel expenses and all sorts of other bonuses..

    That's not equitable, take less from those WITH less and take more from those with more. Those with less, are making a stand that they are not willing to bear the burden when there are so many (in the public service) earning astronomical wages, far greater than the average pleb on the bottom rungs, scraping by.


  • #78
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 27,498 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    CiaranC wrote: »
    So the idea that public servants are more secure in their jobs is false then?

    I can only speak for where I work.
    Just short of half the staff are on varying short-term contracts and hourly rates.

    Yes, there are older staff who were appointed when it was possible to get a 'permanent' position, but almost all the newer people are on 'contracts of indefinite duration'. They tend to be coming into teaching later so mostly have had to take out AVCs and the like for pensions. The 'levy' may not be a huge imposition on someone with 25 years plus service who is on the top of the pay scale, but for many it is crippling.


  • #79
    thebigcheese22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭thebigcheese22


    Naos wrote: »
    Out of curiosity RATM, why should there be the tax on second homes?

    Joe Bloggs, works hard and saves his money. He buys a second home somewhere down the country as a retreat for his family and he plans to retire down there when he's finished working.

    Ah come on now, we all know that the majority of people who buy second homes are rich people who can afford that tax...

    And I have no problem with lowly paid civil servants going on strike - they shouldn't be hit with the same pay cut as the fat cats in senior management. I know its on a sliding scale but its still sickening - we should be paying our gardai and teachers more not less. Its such a popilist thing to say atm - sack all civil servants! :rolleyes:

    They weren't the ones who got us in this proverbial mess, it was the bankers , construction firms and their buddies in Fianna Fail.


  • #80
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 18,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    jim o doom wrote: »
    Those with less, are making a stand that they are not willing to bear the burden when there are so many (in the public service) earning astronomical wages, far greater than the average pleb on the bottom rungs, scraping by.
    I actually agree with the anger over how the levy is being spread across the service - how odd that TDs, on the top of the pay scale, don't have to pay a huge levy...

    There are many though in the PS/CS who fundamentally do not wish to pay any levy whatsoever, even if it was more fairly distributed (which it should be).


  • #81
    jim o doom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭jim o doom


    ixoy wrote: »
    I actually agree with the anger over how the levy is being spread across the service - how odd that TDs, on the top of the pay scale, don't have to pay a huge levy...

    There are many though in the PS/CS who fundamentally do not wish to pay any levy whatsoever, even if it was more fairly distributed (which it should be).


    I literally agree wholeheartedly, I know this levy has to come out, I accept it wholeheartedly.

    The problem is they are going to have to take even more next year again, and if we (the lowest paid) bend over & take it in the ass now, while they pay themselves massive wages & the same for senior management, earning TONS of money, with huge "personal allowances" and ridiculous travel allowances; then we will be leaving ourselfs open to the same unfairly biased rape again, next year.

    I needs to be biased in favour of the people with not much money, not those who can afford to light cigars with €50's.. (yes I know I'm being dramatic here, but you get the picture ;) )


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  • #82
    twinytwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    thebigcheese22 wrote: »
    Ah come on now, we all know that the majority of people who buy second homes are rich people who can afford that tax...

    And I have no problem with lowly paid civil servants going on strike - they shouldn't be hit with the same pay cut as the fat cats in senior management. I know its on a sliding scale but its still sickening - we should be paying our gardai and teachers more not less. Its such a popilist thing to say atm - sack all civil servants! :rolleyes:

    They weren't the ones who got us in this proverbial mess, it was the bankers , construction firms and their buddies in Fianna Fail.

    Agree with you on that one


  • #83
    branners69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭branners69


    hobochris wrote: »

    I'm in IT as well I hope I have to move to Poland or somewhere as I'll have a head start against many of the locals with the multinationals as while they need to be trained up, I'm trained and have relevant experience.

    But imagine the pay cut you will have to take as there is no way you would earn half of what you are on now in Poland!
    hobochris wrote: »

    I have to say any national pride I had has disappeared over the last 6 months.

    So things aint going your way so your national pride has gone, so your one of these proud to be Irish when things are going good but when it gets tough you just want to bail and not want to help rebuild it?? Amazing!!!


  • #84
    hobochris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,163 ✭✭✭hobochris


    branners69 wrote: »
    But imagine the pay cut you will have to take as there is no way you would earn half of what you are on now in Poland!
    In Poland the wages would go alot further though and who knows there government might actually know how to run a country with the peoples interests (and not just their friends) in mind.
    branners69 wrote: »
    So things aint going your way so your national pride has gone, so your one of these proud to be Irish when things are going good but when it gets tough you just want to bail and not want to help rebuild it?? Amazing!!!

    Nope, I'm one of these people that cant beleave what a **** hole this country has become through the celtic tiger era where people become b*stardised b*stards with a b*stard filled center. Where people only look out for number one, Truth be told the whole attitude of people has really worn me down.

    Id be happy to rebuild it, providing I know what we're rebuilding and not just being a good puppet like the government wants and rebuilding a system that has the people in mind not the property developers and bankers as the government would prefer to do.

    At the moment we're all my self including puppets and the government is the puppet master: when are we going to remind the government that they work for us the tax payers(public sector and private).

    if their weren't so many dodgy goings on, free Maison style dealings in this country then maybe Id have a bit more national pride.

    Its the profit before people attitude of this country that I have a huge problem with.

    as I said before I support the lower paid public sector in this dispute but the higher up public sector workers jumping on the bandwagon is a joke, why have the higher ups not been hit as hard?


  • #85
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Would this be a possible solution:-

    Instead of the levy on each public service worker, would the PS accept sweeping changes to improve efficiencies, work longer hours, less holidays - basically the same hours as a typical private sector worker.

    That means 40 hour weeks for nurses, no summer holidays for teachers, remove redundant staff, etc

    Would public service workers agree to this??


  • #86
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    I'm hoping that this is just union heads trying to hang onto their own jobs by giving the appearance that they're looking after their constituents...

    But I've also found myself getting increasingly angry when I hear of unions threatening strike action.


  • #87
    Zzippy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    CiaranC wrote: »
    So the idea that public servants are more secure in their jobs is false then?

    For some, yes. I have no guarantee that I will have a job in 6 months time. My boss and 3 other senior execs will be vying for one position, at a lower grade - the rest are out on their ear. From there on down we have no idea how many jobs will be cut.
    salonfire wrote: »
    Would this be a possible solution:-

    Instead of the levy on each public service worker, would the PS accept sweeping changes to improve efficiencies, work longer hours, less holidays - basically the same hours as a typical private sector worker.

    That means 40 hour weeks for nurses, no summer holidays for teachers, remove redundant staff, etc

    Would public service workers agree to this??

    I would love to have a 40 hour week, it would mean more time at home or doing something else. Summer is our busiest period so I rarely get to take more than a few days off then. I actually haven't taken my full allocation of annual leave in several years. And no, its not 30 days or anything close to it...


  • #88
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Smart Bug wrote: »
    Yet again I find myself posting some some facts:

    - The public sector already pays for it's pension
    - Lower paid public sector workers are paying more of this levy (as a percentage of overall gross pay) than those on higher scales (senior management)
    - Part of the levy agreement include a clause whereby senior management (and TDs) get a pay increase before the levy comes into play
    - Those working in the banking sector enjoy most of the same working conditions civil servants do (career breaks (paid in the case of AIB), flexi time, comparable pay)
    - The 7bn guarantee plan for the banks is being taken from the National Pension Fund - which affects everybodys pensions
    - If a civil servant takes a career break they may only return to work at the discretion of the Department they leave - in this current climate if you take a career break it's tantamount to retirement
    - You only get one increment a year - determined by performance
    - The level of your increment is dependent of your grade and ranges from 0.5% to 8% of your pay

    1 - not all do.
    2 - agree
    3 - disgraceful
    4 - unreal
    5 - you're a bit misleading on this. The National Pension Fund pay the state pension through welfare of the private sector and pays the public sector pensions. It does not pay private sector pensions which most are near collapse.
    At the end of the day, you've got a guaranteed pension, that's where the upset is.

    6 - hope thats true. TD's on their career breaks from being teachers should give up those jobs.

    7 & 8 - alot of contention here. As well as increments, there is alot of anger towards benchmarking of previous years which put up public sector wages unjustifiably.
    My solution would be to benchmark backwards with different percentages for different grades towards the private sector level because after all benchmarking was for benchmarking upwards towards the private sector level in the first place.
    And yes, top paid civil/public servants should take the most hit.


  • #89
    branners69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭branners69


    hobochris wrote: »
    why have the higher ups not been hit as hard?

    I for one am happy about this recession, I saw it coming 2 years ago and I battened down the hatches. I sold my car and cleared all debts apart from the mortgage of course! People on my road actually laughed at me and now most are out of a job with huge overheads and some are now trying to sell their cars for next to nothing! With a bit of luck it will ground people and remove the "Mé feiners" and this whole keeping up with the Jones's attitude.

    I have no problems paying the levy but I agree with you - why have the higher ups not been hit hard. To me the Minister's and TDs should lead by example and take a 25% salary cut. It would make it easier to justify hitting the lower paid Civil Servants. This Government are masters of distraction, they have us all fighting amongst ourselves as they sit in the Dáil scratching their @rses earning a wack of cash on top of their salary for just turning up in the Dáil. Something is very wrong and eventually it will catch up with this Government probably when the country is declared bankrupt!

    Does anyone know if the Principal Officers (salary of up to €90k) are still getting their 1% increase before the levy kicks in??


  • #90
    Smart Bug
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭Smart Bug


    branners69 wrote: »
    Does anyone know if the Principal Officers (salary of up to €90k) are still getting their 1% increase before the levy kicks in??

    As far as I know everyone above AP gets the increase - AP, PO, Asst Sec, Sec Gen etc & TDs.
    gurramok wrote: »
    5 - you're a bit misleading on this. The National Pension Fund pay the state pension through welfare of the private sector and pays the public sector pensions. It does not pay private sector pensions which most are near collapse.
    At the end of the day, you've got a guaranteed pension, that's where the upset is.

    Just as speculation - if the banks have to avail of some or all of this €7bn slush fund (which is a real possibility), what happens to our guaranteed PS pensions & the State Pension?


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  • #91
    branners69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭branners69


    Smart Bug wrote: »
    As far as I know everyone above AP gets the increase - AP, PO, Asst Sec, Sec Gen etc & TDs.

    Thats crazy!! It going to make the levy hit a bit easier on them!! As if the Sec Gens who must be coming out with €13k a month into their hands (never mind their €30k bonuses) would even feel the levy?? 10% on €13k is €1300 a month. But still leaving them €11,700 to feed the kids!!!


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