Anti fees protest

Wagon · 05-02-2009 02:50PM

galwayguy22 wrote: »

Not one person in my 4th year class went to the protests and generally don't care. Yes, it doesn't effect me so I don't care. boo hoo.

You're not doing business by any chace are you?

galwayguy22 · 05-02-2009 02:52PM

No.

gamblitis · 05-02-2009 03:02PM

Anyone here complaining about students not having to pay fees now has some serious issues. I don't see how you lot could have such a **** attitude towards the people who are going to rule this country in future years. I think you all suffer a little from the green eyed monster, because

A)You either didn't do as well in college as you could have and now you regret it.

B)Newly graduated students are being hired into your company above your head year after year and your still climbing that ladder step by step.

C)Or once you've got yourself sorted fcuk the rest as was said earlier.And if this is the case, I feel sorry for you to be honest.

K-9 · 05-02-2009 03:13PM

TouchingVirus wrote:

That pre-95 argument is bull**** K-9, one which you've not backed up with sources either (including your 69% of the civil service have degrees comment) so here comes my take on it, also without references.

Census 06 mate. It is one of those things used by Public Service workers to justify benchmarking etc.

TouchingVirus wrote:

The price of goods and services has risen so much that what people could have gotten for a few pence back in the day isn't what we pay now even after you take in inflation, currency changeover etc etc. So basically, students may get 200 euro for a weekend job which you compare to I dunno, £40 we'll say. The cost of ESB/Heating/etc isn't comparable to what was paid pre-1995.

Incorrect. ESB and Gas rises have kept in line with inflation, except for the last year or 2 with high oil prices.
On the income side you have minimum wage, wages are far higher than 95.

TouchingVirus wrote:

There are over 460,000 people with degrees in the country compared with 233,000 back in 1996, at least partially because of the increase in numbers attending college. Only 6,000 students aged 19 and over (who i'll assume are mostly college students) travelled more than 15 miles to college back in 1996. Over 28,000 people do it now and I'm sure if things were the same now as they were back in 1995 then those numbers would be the same too

Which probably explains why the college car park in Letterkenny is over flowing with cars.

K-9 · 05-02-2009 03:15PM

gamblitis wrote: »

Anyone here complaining about students not having to pay fees now has some serious issues. I don't see how you lot could have such a **** attitude towards the people who are going to rule this country in future years. I think you all suffer a little from the green eyed monster, because

A)You either didn't do as well in college as you could have and now you regret it.

B)Newly graduated students are being hired into your company above your head year after year and your still climbing that ladder step by step.

C)Or once you've got yourself sorted fcuk the rest as was said earlier.And if this is the case, I feel sorry for you to be honest.

Oh, can I play the generalising game too?

I never agreed with the middle class sop that was free fees in 95 and guess what?

I was a student then.

05-02-2009 03:15PM

How about they abolish loss making faculties like arts?;)

gamblitis · 05-02-2009 03:17PM

K-9 wrote: »

Oh, can I play the generalising game too?

I never agreed with the middle class sop that was free fees in 95 and guess what?

I was a student then.

Well which one are you because you sound like your been sucking on lemons over your last few posts!

K-9 · 05-02-2009 03:19PM

gamblitis wrote: »

Well which one are you because you sound like your been sucking on lemons over your last few posts!

LOL. Learn to read, I explained I always was opposed to free fees.:rolleyes:

Do keep up.

gamblitis · 05-02-2009 03:25PM

Jesus the government would love you.
A student who actually opposed a free education!

You sure your not Brian Cowen in disguise??

K-9 · 05-02-2009 03:36PM

gamblitis wrote: »

Jesus the government would love you.
A student who actually opposed a free education!

You sure your not Brian Cowen in disguise??

Nah, I'm a socialist, well, on certain issues!

Free fees hasn't done much for the disadvantaged, but loads for the middle and upper classes.

I like free thought too!

Ostrom · 05-02-2009 04:09PM

Fees are an excellent idea, especially now for a number of reasons;

The most recent suggested thresholds for full and partial fee liability were set at a combined income bracket of 120000 for half fees, and 140000 for full respectively. Considering the proposed public sector reforms, this is an excellent opportunity to restructure the woefully inefficient and unfair college admissions and grant process.

Channelling ineffective public service middle management into proper and exhaustive means testing (for both potential fee payers and grant recepients), and ensuring the revenue generated from fees charged to those who can comfortably afford them would remain within the higher education grant system is a fantastic idea.

I cant believe with all this supposed education, students cant see the top end inequalities - people who can comfortably afford to contribute full fees do not, and the woefully inefficient grant administration currently in place means people like you (and me going back a few years) miss out on necessary benefits.

Why not campaign for reform not abolition? - overhaul the entire administrative structure and take to the streets to ensure the manpower goes into vetting and testing - we have everything to gain from this, provided it is done under the right conditions.

skywalker · 05-02-2009 04:21PM

galwayguy22 wrote: »

Not one person in my 4th year class went to the protests and generally don't care. Yes, it doesn't effect me so I don't care. boo hoo.

The fact that your brazen about your attitude doesnt make it any less disgusting to me. You should be ashamed of yourself.

As for it not affecting you, are you going to have kids at some stage? Do you expect they might want to go to college?

shock_value · 05-02-2009 04:43PM

You're either pro-fees or anti-fees, no inbetweens.

"Fees for the rich" goes completely against the principles of equality! :eek::eek::eek:

Rich people pay way more in taxes to make up for their increased ability to pay (one of the fundamentals of a modern democracy).

As a result they are just as entitled to benifit from public services as anyone else is. This is what the higher tax bracket is all about.

If you think that things are currently unfair, you're basically saying the tax system is unfair, if that is the case then therin lies the problem.

Luckily for politicians, Irish begrudery is alive and well. Giving them the opportunity to introduce the perfect stepping stone on the way to their ultimate goal of full fees.

galwayguy22 · 05-02-2009 04:58PM

skywalker wrote: »

The fact that your brazen about your attitude doesnt make it any less disgusting to me. You should be ashamed of yourself.

As for it not affecting you, are you going to have kids at some stage? Do you expect they might want to go to college?

I suppose in 10 years time I may have had some kids, add 17-18 years for them to grow old enough to be eligible for college adds up to nearly 30 years away.

Fees will have come and gone, and come and gone again in the space of 30 years I'd imagine.

Anyway I'm not overly concerned. I've a wide base of skills and am nearly finished my formal education which I fully expect to come away with a 1.1 Higher Degree. (With little enough ease I might add, I'm that intelligent). So I'll have a decent job no matter what the economic climate, therefore I will be able to help pay for my kids college expenses if they wish to go.

skywalker · 05-02-2009 05:30PM

galwayguy22 wrote: »

Anyway I'm not overly concerned. I've a wide base of skills and am nearly finished my formal education which I fully expect to come away with a 1.1 Higher Degree. (With little enough ease I might add, I'm that intelligent).

Poor attempt at trolling.

Duck's hoop · 05-02-2009 05:34PM

K-9 wrote: »

Free fees hasn't done much for the disadvantaged, but loads for the middle and upper classes.

I think this is fair comment. If people can send their kids to the Institute at a few K per annum then they should be prepared to pay for Third level. In fact I reckon the people who benefited most from the free fees over the last while are the 'grind schools' And of course the car dealers who sold the cars which clog up every 3rd level institution's car park in the country. Many people could afford the fees but now they don't have to pay they put the money into other stuff, as above. Has it increased the numbers from disadvantaged backgrounds attending 3rd level? Don't think so.

Degrees are seriously devalued these days also. Too easy to get. Much too easy.

javaboy · 05-02-2009 05:41PM

shock_value wrote: »

You're either pro-fees or anti-fees, no inbetweens.

"Fees for the rich" goes completely against the principles of equality! :eek::eek::eek:

That depends on your definition of equality. I would say applying the same criteria for who needs to pay and who doesn't is equality i.e. anyone earning over X amount should pay fees regardless of race, creed, gender etc.

If we used your definition of equality we would have to completely overhaul the idea of grants, welfare and god knows what else. For the record, I'm an inbetween.

astrofool · 05-02-2009 06:01PM

galwayguy22 wrote: »

I suppose in 10 years time I may have had some kids, add 17-18 years for them to grow old enough to be eligible for college adds up to nearly 30 years away.

Fees will have come and gone, and come and gone again in the space of 30 years I'd imagine.

Anyway I'm not overly concerned. I've a wide base of skills and am nearly finished my formal education which I fully expect to come away with a 1.1 Higher Degree. (With little enough ease I might add, I'm that intelligent). So I'll have a decent job no matter what the economic climate, therefore I will be able to help pay for my kids college expenses if they wish to go.

Wow, with that attitude, I think the chances of you ever climbing the career ladder are zero to none (unless you're a politician of course..).

IronMan · 05-02-2009 06:11PM

Christ, the sense of entitlement in this thread is mind boggling. You expect to get fees paid for you by the state using limited resources. Resources that could be better pushed towards first and second level education. You get a higher standard of living as a result of a third level education, it opens up opportunities for you. You should pay for that privelige. This old mantra of "I couldn't go to college, if there wasn't free fees" is just shoite. You should take a loan, and then pay it back when you start employment. People expect everything to be handed to them on a plate these days. There are hundreds of other areas where limited funding could be channeled.

In Ireland we have a system where every Tom, Dick and Harry aspires to college, they faff around for 6 months and drop out at Christmas. Our colleges are producing graduates that do not compare to those from other countries. This is because of lack of government funding, and this crazy notion of free third level education, a form of socialism for the rich.

PrivateEye · 05-02-2009 06:12PM

Personally, I thought it was great to say a greater political presence on this demo compared to the last one. Fair enough, the 'Careful nows' were still in the majority- but I seen plenty of placards from individual students in relation to the bankers/the public sector and the occupation of Waterford Crystal too.

I marched with other NUI-M students behind a banner that read 'Students united with workers for justice, Bravo Waterford!' The reception we recieved from bus drivers in particular was fantastic, and spoke volumes of the changing political climate in the country at the minute. Plenty of honks, waves and encouragement. The same from a passing Dublin Fire Brigade ambulance. Its a-brewin'.

Last time we marched thousands of OAPs marched on the same day. This time, it was trade unionists and ordinary people in Waterford. Students have to take these protests more seriously that 'lets put a funny Graham Linehan line on a piece of cardboard and drink ****e cider' They only alienate themselves and become hated that way. 'Jobless liberal students looking for handouts' etc.

One of the USI stewards said to his fellow 'big man in a high-vis jacket' the place was 'full of commie types'. If we're in the business of generalisations, I'm sure the rest of the careerist 'Can I have a job in Fianna Fail/Labour please?' 'union' are just as worried.

Also: several hundred students took off at the end while the speeches were in protest, marched down a road that was in use to the Dail were they staged a sitdown (though allowing buses through) The idea was raised to push the U.S.I to call for a one day shutdown of Irish Uni's. A good one? For sure.

bythewoods · 05-02-2009 06:18PM

<rant>
I'm anti-fees, but I get where people are coming from with the pro-fees argument.
Yes, there are a lot of people in College who are only doing it to have something to do, just for the sake of it. In my 6th Year class a lot of people had attitudes like "Well, I don't know what I want to do with my life, so I'm going to go do Arts".

But what lovely, sparkling brushes many of you seem to be wielding! How they compliment this tar-like substace you're covering everyone in!

Personally, I want to study medicine. I'm 18, I plan on starting in September.
However, I live in the South East, a good 3 hours away from Dublin by bus and about the same from Cork. I don't come from a wealthy background. I mean, yes, I'm not exactly from a disadvantaged background, but I would by no means be considered rich.
If fees were reintroduced, I don't think my parents could afford to send me to University for 5-6 years, especially seeing as I've 2 siblings also in/ planning on being in 3rd level education in the future.
Take into account that I'd definitley have to live in Cork/ Dublin/ Galway as I live too far away, as well as transport costs, food, books, etc etc.
Also, doing a demanding course such as this would limit my opportunity to get part time work. Summer employment is almost impossible to get, and even if I was to there's no way I'd be able to pay all the fees myself from it.

The system as it is is flawed, but fair in many ways. People get college courses based on intelligence and dedication, not based on their parents' pay packets.
Personally, I'd find it unfair if I couldn't study Medicine just because of socio-economic reasons but someone else could, not because they're more intelligent or more suitable, but because they can afford to.

</rant>

melekalikimaka · 05-02-2009 06:30PM

fees should be reintroduced... and will be no doubt... its a bloody recession, and we have been spoilt for too long

Lockstep · 05-02-2009 06:36PM

PrivateEye wrote: »

One of the USI stewards said to his fellow 'big man in a high-vis jacket' the place was 'full of commie types'. If we're in the business of generalisations, I'm sure the rest of the careerist 'Can I have a job in Fianna Fail/Labour please?' 'union' are just as worried.

I did notice a lot of SWP placards around.

challengemaster · 05-02-2009 06:45PM

Ironic that a lot of the pro-fees people here are ones who are finished milking the no-fees system and are out of college now, with a 3rd level degree, without paying a cent towards college fees for it.

If you honestly feel that fees should be payed, then why don't you all go an repay the college you studied at for your course? Fairly sure if everyone so far who feels that courses should be paid for, paid for their own 4+ years they did, there'd be plenty of money for the Colleges already now. Would you honestly have the same attitude if you were still studying in college?

The smart thing to do is not introduce them. No fees mean more people go to college, because they can afford it. That means a large qualified workforce (even allowing for dropouts). Exactly what's needed to get out of a recession. The last thing you need is even more people going straight from 2nd level onto the dole.

And for the 'get a loan from the banks' comments...lol. In this financial situation, that's the last thing people want to have to do. If everyone was to get loans to go to 3rd level to keep the level of attendance now, first of all, the banks would probably crash again and need more bailouts. And when people do get work after their degrees then, all their money is going into the banks, not into the economy to rebuild it.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 05-02-2009 06:54PM

Patricide wrote: »

Our government is going to get this money where exactly? There not exactly in the best of financial condition at the moment, what with all the salary caps in the public sector and so on.

They're paying it now without getting repayments so I don't know why you bothered saying that. Some people would be able to pay up front which would bring the cost down a small bit. Then in 5-6 years time they'll be getting repayments from the first batch to pay for the current students

Bottle_of_Smoke · 05-02-2009 07:02PM

bythewoods wrote: »

<rant>
I'm anti-fees, but I get where people are coming from with the pro-fees argument.
Yes, there are a lot of people in College who are only doing it to have something to do, just for the sake of it. In my 6th Year class a lot of people had attitudes like "Well, I don't know what I want to do with my life, so I'm going to go do Arts".

But what lovely, sparkling brushes many of you seem to be wielding! How they compliment this tar-like substace you're covering everyone in!

Personally, I want to study medicine. I'm 18, I plan on starting in September.
However, I live in the South East, a good 3 hours away from Dublin by bus and about the same from Cork. I don't come from a wealthy background. I mean, yes, I'm not exactly from a disadvantaged background, but I would by no means be considered rich.
If fees were reintroduced, I don't think my parents could afford to send me to University for 5-6 years, especially seeing as I've 2 siblings also in/ planning on being in 3rd level education in the future.
Take into account that I'd definitley have to live in Cork/ Dublin/ Galway as I live too far away, as well as transport costs, food, books, etc etc.
Also, doing a demanding course such as this would limit my opportunity to get part time work. Summer employment is almost impossible to get, and even if I was to there's no way I'd be able to pay all the fees myself from it.

The system as it is is flawed, but fair in many ways. People get college courses based on intelligence and dedication, not based on their parents' pay packets.
Personally, I'd find it unfair if I couldn't study Medicine just because of socio-economic reasons but someone else could, not because they're more intelligent or more suitable, but because they can afford to.

</rant>

You wouldn't have to pay the fees until you're in employment. On a doctors salary wouldn't be the end of the world. So once your parents can afford theh other stuff fees would make no difference to you

norwegianwood · 05-02-2009 07:54PM

ugh, i hope to god they don't bring back fees. in a year i'll be wanting to go to college, so i'm fcuked if they do!:(

marco murphy · 05-02-2009 08:22PM

Ogra Shinn Fein video of the protest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0ZBRGpjAFo

Twee. · 05-02-2009 08:44PM

GalwayRush, I can't afford to to pay for college if they reintroduce fees, my parents would also struggle to help me. I'm 19 and the youngest in my family, so I don't think my parents deserve to be pulling cash together to send me to college when they should be enjoying life after raising a family for 27 years. I love college and need a degree to get the job I want, I shouldn't have to sacrifice that because I can't pay.

I currently work part time and go to college full time. The money I make goes on bus tickets, one night out a week and other college related things. College is not free. Due to the nature of my course I attend gigs and the theatre at least once a month, adding an extra 20-40 euro per month to my expenses.

I attended the protest yesterday and was greatly embarrassed to be surrounded by drunken idiots, downing naggins and waving bottles at cameras. I'm not trying to come off high and mighty as I do drink and enjoy myself in that manner, but god not at a time when we need to solidify the fact that young Ireland needs equal access to third level education.

EDIT: Also, all the misspellings and grammar mistakes! Maybe the next protest should highlight the level of grammar teaching in primary schools.

brianthebard · 05-02-2009 10:56PM

challengemaster wrote: »

Ironic that a lot of the pro-fees people here are ones who are finished milking the no-fees system and are out of college now, with a 3rd level degree, without paying a cent towards college fees for it.

If you honestly feel that fees should be payed, then why don't you all go an repay the college you studied at for your course? Fairly sure if everyone so far who feels that courses should be paid for, paid for their own 4+ years they did, there'd be plenty of money for the Colleges already now. Would you honestly have the same attitude if you were still studying in college?

The smart thing to do is not introduce them. No fees mean more people go to college, because they can afford it. That means a large qualified workforce (even allowing for dropouts). Exactly what's needed to get out of a recession. The last thing you need is even more people going straight from 2nd level onto the dole.

Ok so I've gone back and applied the proposed criteria for fees. Turns out I won't have to pay fees. Its actually possible to take a pro-fees position (in this instance) and not be hypocritical.

Anti fees protest

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