UK Nurse faces the sack after offering to pray for sick patient

Run_to_da_hills · 02-02-2009 12:55AM #1

Its quite unusual to come across a story like this from the British Tabloids,

A nurse could be sacked and even struck off for offering to say a prayer for an elderly patient. Caroline Petrie, a community nurse and devout Christian, has already been suspended for an alleged breach of her code of conduct on equality and diversity.

She now faces disciplinary action, even though the patient involved did not make a formal complaint.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1133423/Persecuted-praying-Nurse-faces-sack-offering-pray-sick-patient.html

Thomas_S_Hunterson · 02-02-2009 12:59AM

Dismissal would be very harsh.

A verbal/written warning and a polite reminder of the terms of her employment would suffice imo.

/edit: I see she already received a warning. This complicates things.

Mickeroo · 02-02-2009 12:59AM

That ain't right

Fanny Cradock · 02-02-2009 01:04AM

Granted it was her second 'offence', but it seems quite bizarre that her employers should become so hysterical over the possibility that someone may become upset by such a gesture. Really, there are worse things happening in the world.

Zombrex · 02-02-2009 01:24AM

Whether or not the person complained or not is rather irrelevant. The purpose is to stop this sort of thing before it upsets someone, not wait till it upsets someone and then do something about it.

She was given a warning, ignored it, and continued to do it. In fairness to Christians this smacks more of the insecurities of this nurse needing to express her beliefs even if it is inappropriately (an example you can relate to, an atheist telling people going into church there is not God), rather than some clash between Christianity and the hospital.

The Christians can correct me if I am wrong, but it should be perfectly possible for a Christian to not go around telling people they are going to pray for them when they have been asked not to and they are representing an organisation (the NHS) that is supposed to be secular and not favouring on religion over another. It isn't like some fundamental requirement of being a Christian.

sorella · 02-02-2009 05:41AM

You are funny sometimes:)

Wicknight wrote: »

Whether or not the person complained or not is rather irrelevant. The purpose is to stop this sort of thing before it upsets someone, not wait till it upsets someone and then do something about it.

sorella · 02-02-2009 05:43AM

Well, we pray for everyone we meet.

No need to say so though:)

Prayer is the life-breath for a Christian.

As for all, did they but know it.

Blessings this day

Nodin · 02-02-2009 09:32AM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Its quite unusual to come across a story like this from the British Tabloids,

Actually, it isn't, particularily the Telegraph and Mail.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

A nurse could be sacked and even struck off for offering to say a prayer for an elderly patient. Caroline Petrie, a community nurse and devout Christian, has already been suspended for an alleged breach of her code of conduct on equality and diversity.

A bit petty. In the event she did manage to offend somebody, a quick apology would presumably suffice. The Brits tend to go mad with procedure now and again.

Zombrex · 02-02-2009 01:19PM

Nodin wrote: »

Actually, it isn't, particularily the Telegraph and Mail.

Yeah I did think that comment was a bit funny. This sort of stuff is bread and butter for the Daily Mail.

robindch · 02-02-2009 02:03PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Granted it was her second 'offence', but it seems quite bizarre that her employers should become so hysterical over the possibility that someone may become upset by such a gesture. Really, there are worse things happening in the world.

There certainly are worse things happening, but the whole point of a religion-free hospital system is that nobody has to be put into the difficult situation of having to deal with somebody else's religious views, when one is already ill oneself.

Reversing the position, I wonder how an ill christian or muslim fundamentalist would feel if an atheist doctor told him that there was no god out there helping him? I would imagine that most religious would be then be quite happy to have the doctor disciplined (as he should be).

Also, and at least as importantly, there's good research out there which strongly suggests that if people know that they're being prayed for, that they tend to fare worse than people who aren't being prayed for (or equivalently, being prayed for, but not knowing of it). By telling this patient that she was praying for her, evidence suggests that she may well be doing the patient harm and I can't imagine that too many people are in favour of that.

Nodin · 02-02-2009 02:12PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Yeah I did think that comment was a bit funny. This sort of stuff is bread and butter for the Daily Mail.

O yes.

From the Article wrote:

A source close to the current case told the Daily Mail: 'Caroline Petrie is being disciplined under equal opportunities and "diversity" policies - and there is a growing tendency to use such policies to single out for attack our own Judaeo-Christian customs and culture.
'Christians are now becoming the most discriminated-against group of people in our society. It's getting quite frightening and out of hand.'

OoooOOOoooo - a 'source'.

Only thing missing from it is a mention by way of comparison of a 'Mad Imam in Inmate Madhouse' or some such. And free bikes for Romanians.

Rev Hellfire · 02-02-2009 02:15PM

robindch wrote: »

Reversing the position, I wonder how an ill christian or muslim fundamentalist would feel if an atheist doctor told him that there was no god out there helping him? I would imagine that most religious would be then be quite happy to have the doctor disciplined (as he should be).

Are you seriously comparing the two ?
I can only surmise that the nurse offered to pray for the person in the hope it would offer them some comfort, it wasn't done out of malice. Its hard to see how a doctor would telling someone that there's no god could be seen as an act of comfort.

Quite frankly its acts like this which harm the atheist agenda, since people can see it for the petty nitpicking that it is.

MrPudding · 02-02-2009 02:15PM

At the end of the day it is a simple disciplinary matter. There are rules and regulations, she has been warned before and chose to ingnore the rule. I would expect she is also not allowed to have a whiskey with her patients, is that wrong too?

Rules are rules. Why should religion be somehow above or exempt from the rules?

MrP

Fanny Cradock · 02-02-2009 02:16PM

robindch wrote: »

Reversing the position, I wonder how an ill christian or muslim fundamentalist would feel if an atheist doctor told him that there was no god out there helping him? I would imagine that most religious would be then be quite happy to have the doctor disciplined (as he should be).

I actually think that an analogy whereby a Wiccan doctor (or someone of a different faith) tried to force their views on a patient would be better understood. Hope derived from the belief in a deity wouldn't be removed in such a case as it would in your example, robin; it would merely be replaced. As it stands, I don't think that the woman objected, nor did the nurse brazenly force her views on the patient - I believe she asked if it would be OK to pray for her. This said, while I believe that a nurses duty goes beyond simply dispensing meds, I do believe that she overstepped the mark. While I see no problem with the nurse praying with the somebody if they asked for it, it must be recognised that there is an imbalance of power in such a relationship. She is clearly passionate about here beliefs, but also very naive in how she goes about practising them.

Nodin · 02-02-2009 02:23PM

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Quite frankly its acts like this which harm the atheist agenda, .

Theres an agenda now?

Dear me. I haven't received a copy. Don't suppose you could fill me in....?

MrPudding · 02-02-2009 02:32PM

Hmmm, I registered on the Evil Atheist Conspiracy site, but I still have not received my badge, decoder ring and agenda.

MrP

Rev Hellfire · 02-02-2009 02:34PM

MrPudding wrote: »

Hmmm, I registered on the Evil Atheist Conspiracy site, but I still have not received my badge, decoder ring and agenda.

MrP

Your application was rejected because you used one of those stamps with a baby Jesus on it it. I suggest you reapply.

MrPudding · 02-02-2009 02:38PM

Cheers for the update, rookie mistake.

MrP

Fanny Cradock · 02-02-2009 02:45PM

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Are you seriously comparing the two ?
I can only surmise that the nurse offered to pray for the person in the hope it would offer them some comfort, it wasn't done out of malice. Its hard to see how a doctor would telling someone that there's no god could be seen as an act of comfort.

Quite frankly its acts like this which harm the atheist agenda, since people can see it for the petty nitpicking that it is.

Indeed, It does seem that the patient didn't object to the prayer offer for her own sake, rather it was lodged for someone who might be offended. That seems like a rather odd reason to me, but what the nurse did was completely different than trying to argue someone out of their faith.

As an aside, I find it amusing that the nurse is being disciplined for being in breach of 'diversity' policies.

MrPudding · 02-02-2009 02:52PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

As an aside, I find it amusing that the nurse is being disciplined for being in breach of 'diversity' policies.

Why?

MrP

LolaDub · 02-02-2009 02:53PM

Did the article not say that the patient who the prayer was offered to was a Christian? If so then its not the same as a muslim or athiest pushing their beliefs on another. There was no pushing of anything just a kind gesture from one person of faith to another.

Fanny Cradock · 02-02-2009 02:53PM

I'll let you ponder that, Mr P. It's not too difficult.

LolaDub wrote: »

Did the article not say that the patient who the prayer was offered to was a Christian? If so then its not the same as a muslim or athiest pushing their beliefs on another. There was no pushing of anything just a kind gesture from one person of faith to another.

Apparently she is a Christian, but felt it inappropriate. Not sure how reliable the facts are in this story, though.

LolaDub · 02-02-2009 02:58PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I'll let you ponder that, Mr P. It's not too difficult.

Apparently she is a Christian, but felt it inappropriate. Not sure how reliable the facts are in this story, though.

Did she feel it was inappropriate or just surprised by it?

Peoples hands are tied with everything nowadays i'd probably find it surprising too but not in a negative way.

MrPudding · 02-02-2009 03:04PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I'll let you ponder that, Mr P. It's not too difficult.

I think you are missing the point, which christians seem to when they put on their persecuted hat.

The diversity policy is unlike to tell her she is not allowed to be a christian, what she wants to do in her own time is her own business, I would expect that it simply states it should be a private matter.

Her actions are against her companies policies. End of story. If she believes she should be able to offer prayers to her patients then I would presume there is a mechanism for trying to make changes to policy, her union perhaps? But if an employee repeatedly breaks policy, regardless of whether they or anyone else agrees with that policy, then they can rightly expect there to be repercussions.

MrP

Fanny Cradock · 02-02-2009 03:19PM

MrPudding wrote: »

I think you are missing the point,

MrP

No, Mr P, you are missing my point. I have already stated that I think that she acted inappropriately. You are too quick to assume that Christians are going to form ranks on this one.

robindch · 02-02-2009 03:21PM

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Are you seriously comparing the two?

Er, yes. Religious and irreligious views of any kind should stay out of hospital.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Quite frankly its acts like this which harm the atheist agenda, since people can see it for the petty nitpicking that it is.

I'm with MrP on this one -- can somebody CC me on this "agenda"?

And neither is this about atheism either. It's about letting people hold whatever religious or irreligious views they want, without interference from other people.

Fanny Cradock · 02-02-2009 03:22PM

LolaDub wrote: »

Did she feel it was inappropriate or just surprised by it?

Peoples hands are tied with everything nowadays i'd probably find it surprising too but not in a negative way.

I'm not sure, tbh. I would guess that she felt it inappropriate.

JimiTime · 02-02-2009 03:28PM

IMO, ridiculous policy anyway. I hate this idea of choking people with silly red tape. If a Wiccan or a muslim or whatever, said to me that they were going to say a prayer, or whatever the wiccan equivalent is, It will provoke one of a few things:

a) I'd merely say, Thanks.
b) I'd politely say, I'd rather you didn't.
c) Use it as an opportunity to share my own faith.

Why they need to legislate against this, is just so annoying. Can't people just speak for themselves?

Fair enough, if someone is pestering you in your hospital bed with religion, it can become an issue of complaint. However, saying, 'Do you mind if I pray for you?' Its flippin laughable.

robindch · 02-02-2009 03:29PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I actually think that an analogy whereby a Wiccan doctor (or someone of a different faith) tried to force their views on a patient would be better understood.

Perhaps, but the usual religious response in this kind of exchange is that "it's all one god" or something similar, hence the choice of an atheist doctor.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

While I see no problem with the nurse praying with the somebody if they asked for it, it must be recognised that there is an imbalance of power in such a relationship. She is clearly passionate about her beliefs, but also very naive in how she goes about practising them.

I think we can agree on that

JimiTime · 02-02-2009 03:39PM

robindch wrote: »

It's about letting people hold whatever religious or irreligious views they want, without interference from other people.

Incredibly stupid IMO. People should just speak for themselves. It should not be legislated for! If someone has issue with it, they should just say it. If they are then pestered, then make a complaint. Your views, and that of some other atheist posters in matters like these are just ridiculous IMO. Such an oversensitive bunch of cowards you seem to be. Always needing some legislation to fight some imaginary battle. You'll find that most people will be receptive to polite conversation. Sheesh, grow a set guys!

Zombrex · 02-02-2009 03:43PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

As an aside, I find it amusing that the nurse is being disciplined for being in breach of 'diversity' policies.

It would be hard to think of any other policy she would be in breach of

The "diversity" applies to the patients, not the staff. The hospital should be welcoming to all (and that is defined by the patient, not the staff). All the staff are supposed to operate in a secular fashion because they do not know, nor should it matter, the religion of the people they are caring for. To assume they are all Christians would be a mistake and possibly insulting.

We in Ireland should know all about this as there is a long history of people simply not going to a hospital if it run by a different religious denomination.

People may think it is unreasonable or irrational, put some people have trouble being in a place of care, such as a hospital, if they feel that the staff are a different religion to them. The staff have a responsibility to project a secular front (that is not the same as an atheist front) to give the impression that they are religion neutral.

UK Nurse faces the sack after offering to pray for sick patient

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