Star Charts by Geoffry Mandel

ChocolateSauce · 18-12-2008 9:14pm #1

So I got the complete Star Trek atlas, and boy was I disappointed!

I was sceptical at first...I mean, how do you make 2D maps of space? I hadn't a clue, so I bought the book to see. Well, they did it! And by that I don't mean they succeeded (they didn't), I mean they attempted it.

The maps are not only 2D, but they're totally at odds with what I would have expected (I would say I'm an 8.2 on the trekkie scale, so I know what to expect!) the quadrant to look like if it were 2D, in terms of the proportions. For one, the Federation surrounds the Romulan Empire on about 85% of its boarders, and DS9 is hardly what I'd call deep space...

Anyway, I just thought I'd say this. Any thoughts?

oxygen_old · 19-12-2008 1:55pm

I had a quick look at the star charts online, I cant find DS9 but I always assumed it was called DS9, from 60ish years ago when it was built it was deep space, and it kept the title due to the worm hole to the gamma quadrant.

I am surprised by the size of the UFP compared to the Romulan and klingon empire. Im pressuming this guy has some information to base this on

Goodshape · 19-12-2008 4:50pm

oxygen wrote: »

I had a quick look at the star charts online, I cant find DS9 but I always assumed it was called DS9, from 60ish years ago when it was built it was deep space

Don't think so. It belonged to the Cardasians before the start of the DS9 tv series. Would have been called Terrok Nor (spelling?) from when it was built up until that time.

Svalbard · 19-01-2009 11:51pm

I have had this book for a while and I think they got the map pretty much spot on. No, its not perfect, but it takes into account five decades of Trek canon - planets, relative distance from earth, proximity to other empires etc. Lets not forget there are any number of episodes in which events are physically possible only by having the UFP, Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians in fairly close proximity to each other (and especially to Earth). the map-makers have managed to allow for this while still remaining true to assertions that the UFP is 7,000 LY in diameter and it would take 7 years to traverse it at warp speed.

qwertz · 21-01-2009 11:58pm

I'd take it off your hands for a fair price.

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

So I got the complete Star Trek atlas, and boy was I disappointed!

I was sceptical at first...I mean, how do you make 2D maps of space? I hadn't a clue, so I bought the book to see. Well, they did it! And by that I don't mean they succeeded (they didn't), I mean they attempted it.

The maps are not only 2D, but they're totally at odds with what I would have expected (I would say I'm an 8.2 on the trekkie scale, so I know what to expect!) the quadrant to look like if it were 2D, in terms of the proportions. For one, the Federation surrounds the Romulan Empire on about 85% of its boarders, and DS9 is hardly what I'd call deep space...

Anyway, I just thought I'd say this. Any thoughts?

ChocolateSauce · 29-01-2009 12:23pm

Svalbard wrote: »

I have had this book for a while and I think they got the map pretty much spot on. No, its not perfect, but it takes into account five decades of Trek canon - planets, relative distance from earth, proximity to other empires etc. Lets not forget there are any number of episodes in which events are physically possible only by having the UFP, Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians in fairly close proximity to each other (and especially to Earth). the map-makers have managed to allow for this while still remaining true to assertions that the UFP is 7,000 LY in diameter and it would take 7 years to traverse it at warp speed.

Sorry to say Svalbard, but if you think it takes 7 years to traverse the federation, you're not qualified to pronounce on the accuracy of the maps. In the DS9 episode where Kassidy Yates tells Sisko of the baseball game on her brother's colony, Sisko says it's "on the other side of Federation space" and that at maximum warp it would take 2 weeks to get there.

Irishtrekkie · 29-01-2009 11:33pm

no i agree with the 7 years thing , but of course stuff has been stuff that goes against this , and i remeber ent was bad too , getting to the klingon homework in a few days or something at warp 5 ! .ha.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/history-other.htm#cartography

for some info on the problem

and this http://www.stdimension.org/int/Cartography/cartography.htm

Svalbard · 30-01-2009 8:34pm

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Sorry to say Svalbard, but if you think it takes 7 years to traverse the federation, you're not qualified to pronounce on the accuracy of the maps. In the DS9 episode where Kassidy Yates tells Sisko of the baseball game on her brother's colony, Sisko says it's "on the other side of Federation space" and that at maximum warp it would take 2 weeks to get there.

Rubbish. Look at the map again. The Federation is all stretched along a north-east/south-west axis and skinny in the middle. This allows Bajor and DS9 to be within reach of the Klingon Empire and the nearby colony of Cestus III (where Yeats' brother lives).
However pick a point at the periphery of UFP space beyond the Romulan Empire and travel to the opposite side out towards the Galactic edge and it could well take 7 years.

Also she says its 8 weeks at maximum warp.

ChocolateSauce · 06-02-2009 4:43pm

Never is it mentioned that it would take even 1 year to get across federation space. Of course there will be inconsistencies, but it is always made clear that it isn't so huge as to be years. I also dispute the maps given, as these maps, being only 2-D, cannot by definition be accurate to any meaningful degree. Unless of course all alpha quadrant nations are in the same spatial plane!

Slice · 06-02-2009 7:01pm

What's odd is that consider how large the Romulan, Klingon and Cardassian empires are portrayed to be there's very little mention of any of the other species that might actually occupy their space in any of the shows or movies.

Svalbard · 07-02-2009 12:36am

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Never is it mentioned that it would take even 1 year to get across federation space. Of course there will be inconsistencies, but it is always made clear that it isn't so huge as to be years.

That's a bit fluffy ChocolatesSauce.

Capt. Picard in First Contact states the UFP is 8,000 LY in diameter (as does Capt. Picard in First Contact).
The following is from STdimension.com. The author's findings are based on the official Star Trek enclycopedia and since I no longer have my copy I'll use his words:

"Travelling through the "official" Federation (8000 ly) : at warp 6 - 20 years, at warp 8 - 8 years, at warp 9 - 5 years, at warp 9.6 - 4 years. Consequently, even at maximum warp, a patrol ship would need several years to travel through the giant empire only once - not to speak of the fact that the vessels of everyday traffic like freighters and personal transporters mostly can only attain the cruising speed of warp 6 and furthermore have to stop at a starbase after some weeks of flight for maintenance, repair or fuelling (typical ships need tons of deuterium and a antimatter replacement every 3 years). These circumstances increase the horrendous travel time of decades still by many years."

Does anyone remember the weekly collectable Star Trek magazines sold a few years back? The ones you had to organise into folders? They had a neat explaination of warp speed and claimed it would take in the region of 7 years to traverse the federation. I might have to have a look in the attic for them!

Obviously for the sake of storytelling the scriptwriters have ignored established canon on many occasions to make the UFP a more manageable size.
As for your point on Cestus III, I had a look at the map and Mandel does put that planet pretty far from Bajor alright. I never said the map was perfect! But its a pretty good balance of established canon and liberties taken by writers over the years.

ChocolateSauce · 08-02-2009 10:57am

Well if that's the case, I may need to re-evaluate certain aspects. I haven't seen first contact in ages...

Of course, an 8000 light-year federation would create huge logistical problems, as well as many questions. Anyway, I'll look into it some more.

Svalbard · 08-02-2009 9:58pm

I read somewhere that 8000 may refer to lightyears squared rather than diameter, that would make more sense.
I suppose my point is this - Star Trek canon says what it says.
But as we all know during TOS/TNG/DS9 and even ENT, our heroes were often in Klingon space one week, Cardassian space the next and back at earth the week after, so obviously silly things like the laws of physics and relativity never get in the way of good storytelling!

As I have said Mandal's charts do an admirable job of satisfying both canon and what happens on TV. It shows the UFP to cover a vast region of space, but Earth, the major federation member worlds and central empires are all within striking distance of each other.

dyl10 · 10-02-2009 1:33pm

Slice wrote: »

What's odd is that consider how large the Romulan, Klingon and Cardassian empires are portrayed to be there's very little mention of any of the other species that might actually occupy their space in any of the shows or movies.

In the later episodes of DS9, there are several points when it is implied that the Cardassian empire is relatively small.

If I remember correctly in the ds9 episode "in the pale moonlight", Weyoun states that the dominion forces could make it for Cardassia to Romulus in 3 weeks(facing only light resistance)

Star Charts by Geoffry Mandel

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