Court told of support for incest mother by Catholic group

walshb · 23-01-2009 02:21PM

Slow Motion wrote: »

It was the judge who pointed this out, giving the impression that he would have given a longer sentence if he could! The other thing that I don't understand perhaps someone with more of a legal understanding can clarify is why if she was convicted for multiple crimes was she not given consecutive (sp) sentences thereby resulting in longer jail time?

The judge pointed it out, yet it's judges who don't give proper sentences in cases.
Many men have been convicted of vile sex crimes against women and children and they
have received pissy sentences. This is an ongoing issue and to get a harsh and fair sentence, you really have to be twisted; and even then, the sentence can be reduced on good behaviour. Technically, a lifer can apply for parole after 7 years. Ludicrous!

The system here stinks!

The issue concerning concurrency has long been occurring. I would imagine it was because of certain mitigating:rolleyes: circumstances. I would say she pleaded guilty, was cooperative and that, so the judge acted this way when sentencing! Concurrent sentencing is one of the biggest screw ups in the Irish legal system!

Also, the judges in this country are at times so far removed from reality, they just cannot act in a proper and just fashion

Slow Motion · 23-01-2009 02:26PM

walshb wrote: »

The judge pointed it out, yet it's judges who don't give proper sentences in cases.
Many men have been convicted of vile sex crimes against women and children and they
have received pissy sentences. This is an ongoing issue and to get a harsh and fair sentence, you really have to be twisted; and even then, the sentence can be reduced on good behaviour. Technically, a lifer can apply for parole after 7 years. Ludicrous!

The system here stinks!

The issue concerning concurrency has long been occurring. I would imagine it was because of certain mitigating:rolleyes: circumstances. I would say she pleaded guilty, was cooperative and that, so the judge acted this way when sentencing!

Also, the judges in this country are at times so far removed from reality, they just cannot act in a proper and just fashion

I couldn't agree more, it's actually quite depressing, going slightly OT for a moment it was pointed out to me that the scumbags who were shot were recently were out on bail and if we had tougher enforcement and sentencing in this country they would still have been in prison and therefore alive, now that's irony!

Ambersky · 23-01-2009 03:34PM

http://www.rte.ie/news/1999/0723/nun.html

Just on the women dont get life sentences point.
Remember the demonisation of Norah Wall. It was a high profile case, she was a former nun and got life for her part in a rape.
The conviction was later overturned.

norbert64 · 23-01-2009 04:35PM

fun times to be had now
the obligatory liveline show about it - > http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/

click on ''Listen to Latest Show'' (will probably be podcasted tomorrow)

CDfm · 23-01-2009 04:44PM

Dragan wrote: »

Obviously they were fine with it as she was not using contraception.

Dragan AFAIK Bean UI Chibin who was the activist who appears to have supported the convicted woman was a Postmistress - so you could equally say she had close links with an Post

You could also say Celia Ahern has close links with a former head of a republicamn organisation.

ITs an awful story and IMO the Social Worker was creating a smoke screen.

23-01-2009 04:45PM

Sowra wrote: »

oh please.for someone to say something like that, after years of the catholic church having this country under its thumb in EVERY way (media, reproduction, politics..)that, imo is 'actually quite sad'

its not 'catholic bashing' or 'mocking religion'.People are taking issue with the catholic church, the authorities of catholicism in ireland, and what they did to keep these children from getting help.

the fact that the abuse of these poor kids was helped to be covered up by this organisation in only the LAST TEN YEARS is a testament to the fact that we are not yet as free from their control and interferance as we should be

Don't be pathetic. Where are the fact in this case to say it was the Catholic Church? You don't have to be a ****ing Catholic to have a bit of respect for peoples religion you bloody bird brain. You're just like a lot of the people who mock the Catholic Church (or any religion for that matter) - uneducated, highly ignorant and more personal issues than your average nutcase.

But anyway, no need to be surprised, it's been happening for centuries and nowadays if you attack Catholicism, you're seen as "Mature" or "Modern".

Slow Motion · 23-01-2009 04:51PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't be pathetic. Where are the fact in this case to say it was the Catholic Church? You don't have to be a ****ing Catholic to have a bit of respect for peoples religion you bloody bird brain. You're just like a lot of the people who mock the Catholic Church (or any religion for that matter) - uneducated, highly ignorant and more personal issues than your average nutcase.

But anyway, no need to be surprised, it's been happening for centuries and nowadays if you attack Catholicism, you're seen as "Mature" or "Modern".

Personal abuse much? Sound's like you are the one with the chip!

corkgal23 · 23-01-2009 05:10PM

I agree that 7 years was inadequate but it is not fair to blame the judge- she (yes it was a woman NOT a man as everyone assumes) gave the maximum penealty allowed for the crime. Why? because our government have not updated the legislation in over 100 years. The judge is tied it is the legislature everyone should be pissed off at. Also while the mother is of course to blame the lack of intervention is the real tragedy, the same thing happened in England with the Baby P case

javaboy · 23-01-2009 06:04PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't be pathetic. Where are the fact in this case to say it was the Catholic Church? You don't have to be a ****ing Catholic to have a bit of respect for peoples religion you bloody bird brain. You're just like a lot of the people who mock the Catholic Church (or any religion for that matter) - uneducated, highly ignorant and more personal issues than your average nutcase.

But anyway, no need to be surprised, it's been happening for centuries and nowadays if you attack Catholicism, you're seen as "Mature" or "Modern".

Banned

Dudess · 23-01-2009 06:17PM

corkgal23 wrote: »

I agree that 7 years was inadequate but it is not fair to blame the judge- she (yes it was a woman NOT a man as everyone assumes) gave the maximum penealty allowed for the crime. Why? because our government have not updated the legislation in over 100 years. The judge is tied it is the legislature everyone should be pissed off at. Also while the mother is of course to blame the lack of intervention is the real tragedy, the same thing happened in England with the Baby P case

I don't think it's the "real" tragedy - that puts too much blame at the feet of the authorities. The blame lies with the perpetrators first and foremost.

Kat Slater · 23-01-2009 10:41PM

I see the nut Ui Chroibin is on her soapbox again...

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/mother-from-hell-supporter-hits-out-at-health-staff-1612148.html

How pompous, self righteous and horrible are those comments. That's right Mena, shift the blame away from yourself and forget about the suffering of those poor innocent children. Not much compassion for one who claims to be "pro life".

What does "Ograchas Naoimh Papain" translate to in English???

Handsome Bob · 23-01-2009 11:12PM

As a person who is studying Social Work, I have sympathy for their position. But in all honestly, it just sounds like the case workers on this family have just reflected any responsibility away from themselves by mentioning Catholicism.

Blaming Catholicism as an organisation in this case for the actions of a break-away nutter and her right wing group is kind of like blaming Christianity every time Phelps and co. rear their ugly head. It's way too simplistic.

the_syco · 25-01-2009 07:06PM

Dont turn away from the lord jesus christ or thou shall burn for eternily in the lake of fire.

Bring it :cool::pac::D:p

Madame Razz wrote: »

i'm not defending the church or anything; merely pointing out that I do not think they can be blamed for the actions of an extreme right wing group that they do not approve of.

A lot of these laws were most likely written when the church was in power. Unless you were to look at every law now, many will stay the same.

“Article 41 1.

1° The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.

2° The State, therefore, guarantees to protect the Family in its constitution and authority, as the necessary basis of social order and as indispensable to the welfare of the Nation and the State.”

Found this to be interesting, if true:

The guilty woman has been given seven years (1908 legislation), the judge has said she would have given a man life, under more recent legislation.

jay-me · 26-01-2009 11:58AM

In fairness isn't this kind of crap happening on a daily basis in the traveling community and people don't give a damn. I don't know about the sexual side of things but the neglect and physical abuse is definitely ongoing. Also does anyone know that homeless kid that is usually on Henry St he looks about 14 and is very pale thin and sick looking. I would go as far as to say he is a drug addict but I can't confirm that it's just speculation but non the less the point is nobody seems to care as much about him.

Another thing is regarding the input from the Catholic group is that the mother appears to be somewhat sly and convincing considering she knew enough to tell the kids to say nothing and fed them on the right days etc leads me to think it is possible she used similar tactics in convincing the Catholic group to help her and it is possible they thought they were doing the right thing.

CDfm · 26-01-2009 01:16PM

jay-me wrote: »

In fairness isn't this kind of crap happening on a daily basis in the traveling community and people don't give a damn. I don't know about the sexual side of things but the neglect and physical abuse is definitely ongoing. Also does anyone know that homeless kid that is usually on Henry St he looks about 14 and is very pale thin and sick looking. I would go as far as to say he is a drug addict but I can't confirm that it's just speculation but non the less the point is nobody seems to care as much about him.

Another thing is regarding the input from the Catholic group is that the mother appears to be somewhat sly and convincing considering she knew enough to tell the kids to say nothing and fed them on the right days etc leads me to think it is possible she used similar tactics in convincing the Catholic group to help her and it is possible they thought they were doing the right thing.

yes the social workers are deflecting a lot of attention here. would social workers impress me deal with the traveling community or kids that are not attending school or present as homeless or appear before the childrens court.

it does seem the mother was smart enough to get a group to act for her

but it was a tridentine group latin mass etc subscribing to pre vatican 2 beliefs. the leaders or clergy of such groups are normally excommunicated so to imply that the group is Roman Catholic is not true

seamus · 26-01-2009 01:27PM

the_syco wrote: »

Found this to be interesting, if true:

The guilty woman has been given seven years (1908 legislation), the judge has said she would have given a man life, under more recent legislation.

I'd be interested to know if this has any implications under Article 40 of the constitution:

All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law.

Does this give scope for male sex offenders, convicted of sentences of more than 7 years to challenge their sentencing as unconstitutional and have it commuted to 7 years?

Terry · 26-01-2009 01:32PM

Kat Slater wrote: »

What does "Ograchas Naoimh Papain" translate to in English???

The organisation of saint something which does not promote sex out of wedlock, unless those participating are immediate family members, including one who does not consent to these sexual acts or is too young to know what is going on.

I'm most likely wrong though. My Irish isn't up to scratch.

Hobart · 26-01-2009 01:43PM

seamus wrote: »

I'd be interested to know if this has any implications under Article 40 of the constitution:

Does this give scope for male sex offenders, convicted of sentences of more than 7 years to challenge their sentencing as unconstitutional and have it commuted to 7 years?

I don't think so. The Punishment of Incest Act deals with incest by males and females separately. Secondly the Constitution was not voted into being until 1922 (or 1937 depending on your view of legal continuity), while The Punishment of Incest Act was passed in 1908 .

Strangely enough, the punishment for incest by males and females was a maximum of 7 years up until an amendment made in 1993, where male incest was increased upto (a maximum of) 20 years, while female incest was left at 7.

seamus · 26-01-2009 01:47PM

Well, that's kind of my point - surely the amendment to the act could be challenged on the grounds of being unconstitutional?

justcallmetex · 26-01-2009 01:51PM

brendansmith wrote: »

Exactly, just because one dosnt embrace catholicism dosnt mean one must fear and torment ones soul with the work of the devil. Dont turn away from the lord jesus christ or thou shall burn for eternily in the lake of fire.

Funny!

Hobart · 26-01-2009 01:56PM

seamus wrote: »

Well, that's kind of my point - surely the amendment to the act could be challenged on the grounds of being unconstitutional?

Ahh, I see. It won't happen in the current climate. Secondly, I cannot recall the last time a man was charged with incest.

Normally they are charged (in cases like this) under the CJA with Statutory rape, Defilement, Reckless endangerment etc (something I'd like to see considered in this case on those who enabled this abuse to continue).

Kat Slater · 26-01-2009 05:42PM

jay-me wrote: »

Another thing is regarding the input from the Catholic group is that the mother appears to be somewhat sly and convincing considering she knew enough to tell the kids to say nothing and fed them on the right days etc leads me to think it is possible she used similar tactics in convincing the Catholic group to help her and it is possible they thought they were doing the right thing.

The son of Mina Bean gave a statement to the news saying if someone asks his mother for help, she gives it. So by my understanding they made no effort to vet the woman.

Court told of support for incest mother by Catholic group

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