The Brian O'Driscoll thread

ALH-06 · 22-01-2009 11:39PM

premierstone wrote: »

he is not, never has been and never will be a good captain

I don't think it's your place to rate BODs captaining abilities. Have you or anyone else on this forum ever played on a team that O'Driscoll has captained? How could you possibly know how good / bad a captain he is then?

Likewise, I can't say he's a great captain, but all I'll say is that Gary Ella, Michael Cheika, Eddie O'Sullivan, Clive Woodward and Declan Kidney all seem to disagree with you.

Chucky the tree · 23-01-2009 12:13AM

ALH-06 wrote: »

I don't think it's your place to rate BODs captaining abilities. Have you or anyone else on this forum ever played on a team that O'Driscoll has captained? How could you possibly know how good / bad a captain he is then?

Likewise, I can't say he's a great captain, but all I'll say is that Gary Ella, Michael Cheika, Eddie O'Sullivan, Clive Woodward and Declan Kidney all seem to disagree with you.

Maybe his results as captain? While the coaches also get the blame I think so of it has to fall on the captain too. BOD's reigin as captain for various different teams all have 1 theme in common and that is that the teams have hugely under-performed when it mattered. He just cant seem to motivate any of the other players it seems. Leinster nearly always underperformed in the HEC. Ireland did the same in the 6nations and the RWC. The lions tour to N was a disaster, while he was injuried for the 3 matches it still looked poor like being a disaster from the pre-game matches.

Chucky the tree · 23-01-2009 12:17AM

anonymous_joe wrote: »

He's from Leinster which has some clichéd baggage attached to it, as well as being an ex-Rock boy. So a lot of people don't like him for that.

So people dont like Leo cullen cos he's from rock? The south Dublin excuse is b/s I think. Dennis Hickie went to a private south Dublin school and I doubt you find anyone with a bad word to say about him. If your going to put yourself in the media as much as BOD has your going to get abuse for it, no matter where your from.

ALH-06 · 23-01-2009 12:41AM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Maybe his results as captain? While the coaches also get the blame I think so of it has to fall on the captain too. BOD's reigin as captain for various different teams all have 1 theme in common and that is that the teams have hugely under-performed when it mattered. He just cant seem to motivate any of the other players it seems. Leinster nearly always underperformed in the HEC. Ireland did the same in the 6nations and the RWC. The lions tour to N was a disaster, while he was injuried for the 3 matches it still looked poor like being a disaster from the pre-game matches.

His results as captain? Haha of course! So now we know what Ireland's / Leinster's / Lions' problems have been all these years - it's been BOD's captaincy of course!

What absolute BS! BOD was the only player who turned up in RWC07 - he played his heart out and was the only Irish player to come away with some shred of credibility. He was surrounded by players playing the worst rugby of their careers. And that was his fault?

And you mentioned the Lions tour, during which BOD played a whole 90 seconds. Of course we should blame him for its subsequent failure. Why not?

Leinster were underperforming long before BOD became captain, but seeing as its becoming a theme, let's blame him for that as well. By the way - curiously, they still seem to be underperforming this year, even though BOD is no longer the captain. How strange.

As for the 6N, Ireland has had both success and failure under BOD's captaincy. Everyone seems to be so pro-POC for captain now, but their memories must be short indeed. Remember the POC-led Irish team that squandered that famous victory against France in Croke Park, thus costing Ireland the grandslam in 2007? No leadership was shown during the final, seminal moments of that match. POC himself fumbled the French restart, allowing them the possession that Clerc subsequently scored off. I can't remember a worse moment in recent Irish rugby history. And remember what happened when BOD came back to the Irish team in that same 6N? Ireland 43-13 England. One of the most famous Irish wins of all time.

But you didn't mention these things in your post for some reason.

thehighground · 23-01-2009 12:53AM

ALH-06 wrote: »

What absolute BS! BOD was the only player who turned up in RWC07 - he played his heart out and was the only Irish player to come away with some shred of credibility. He was surrounded by players playing the worst rugby of their careers. And that was his fault?

He failed to inspire other around him to perform the same way - in fact he lost the plot when he admonished Peter Stringer for an INTERCEPT pass. One sure way to inspire the 13 others on the field!

As for the 6N, Ireland has had both success and failure under BOD's captaincy. Everyone seems to be so pro-POC for captain now, but their memories must be short indeed. Remember the POC-led Irish team that squandered that famous victory against France in Croke Park, thus costing Ireland the grandslam in 2007? No leadership was shown during the final, seminal moments of that match. POC himself fumbled the French restart, allowing them the possession that Clerc subsequently scored off. I can't remember a worse moment in recent Irish rugby history. And remember what happened when BOD came back to the Irish team in that same 6N? Ireland 43-13 England. One of the most famous Irish wins of all time.

But you didn't mention these things in your post for some reason.

You fail to take into account that Ireland was missing its one world class player in BOD himself, who was replaced by a wing playing as a centre.

Also missing was Peter Stringer who has huge experience for these kinds of situations.

It was a miracle they got so close really. I know most Leinster fans who wouldn't be too happy with Shaggy playing in the centre for Leinster, let alone for Ireland.

[Jackass] · 23-01-2009 01:03AM

When was the last time jesus turned water into wine? Fu*king waist of space, get a new religion!!

Or wait - perspective - he may not be sh*tting some of the greatest tries you will see in your life time from an Irish player (let's forget his little double chip and chase from 50 yards out against the english and 2 time european champions, earls did the same thing a cavan footballer does on any given sunday vs the mighty dragons), but O'Driscoll is still on the list when picking a world XV ... after all his injuries and being marked out of every game and stamped on and punched off the ball and thrown into the ground off the ball....I would say he is still......by a munster mile...the best player to wear the green shirt available.

ALH-06 · 23-01-2009 01:06AM

thehighground wrote: »

He failed to inspire other around him to perform the same way - in fact he lost the plot when he admonished Peter Stringer for an INTERCEPT pass. One sure way to inspire the 13 others on the field!

However you rate BOD as a player or as a captain, no blame, NONE, can be put on his shoulders for the RWC. That's absolutely criminal to do so. That particular incident - you can't rate him on one moment of (very understandable) frustration. Stringer threw a foolish pass and shouldn't have done. Margins are very thin in professional sport and the players know this. That pass killed the game and Ireland's hopes for the tournament.

thehighground wrote: »

You fail to take into account that Ireland was missing its one world class player in BOD himself, who was replaced by a wing playing as a centre.

Also missing was Peter Stringer who has huge experience for these kinds of situations.

It was a miracle they got so close really. I know most Leinster fans who wouldn't be too happy with Shaggy playing in the centre for Leinster, let alone for Ireland.

I'm not attibuting that loss to BOD's absence as captain, I wouldn't dream of it. I was only trying to put into context what other people on these boards are saying with regard POC and BOD's captaining abilities.

Chucky the tree · 23-01-2009 01:14AM

ALH-06 wrote: »

His results as captain? Haha of course! So now we know what Ireland's / Leinster's / Lions' problems have been all these years - it's been BOD's captaincy of course!

What absolute BS! BOD was the only player who turned up in RWC07 - he played his heart out and was the only Irish player to come away with some shred of credibility. He was surrounded by players playing the worst rugby of their careers. And that was his fault?

So it's just a big conisidence that 3 teams he's captained have failed miserable on the big occassion?

How can he not take some of the blame? His job as captain is to motivate the players which he has constantly failed to do.

ALH-06 wrote: »

And you mentioned the Lions tour, during which BOD played a whole 90 seconds. Of course we should blame him for its subsequent failure. Why not?

Leinster were underperforming long before BOD became captain, but seeing as its becoming a theme, let's blame him for that as well. By the way - curiously, they still seem to be underperforming this year, even though BOD is no longer the captain. How strange.

Did you not see the lions friendly matches? They were awful, they looked leaderless and it showed in the matches. There seemed to be very little team spirit, and it's similiar to Ireland I think.

It was only when Cullen took over when he was injuried for alot of the season that they won the Magners league.

ALH-06 wrote: »

As for the 6N, Ireland has had both success and failure under BOD's captaincy. Everyone seems to be so pro-POC for captain now, but their memories must be short indeed. Remember the POC-led Irish team that squandered that famous victory against France in Croke Park, thus costing Ireland the grandslam in 2007? No leadership was shown during the final, seminal moments of that match. POC himself fumbled the French restart, allowing them the possession that Clerc subsequently scored off. I can't remember a worse moment in recent Irish rugby history. And remember what happened when BOD came back to the Irish team in that same 6N? Ireland 43-13 England. One of the most famous Irish wins of all time.

But you didn't mention these things in your post for some reason.

Why dont you mention what POC has done for Munster instead of picking out 1 match for Ireland? I am not going to rate POC on 1 performance, I'd rather do it on more then that and he's shown for Munster more often then not that he's an excellent captain. You might think beating a **** england team is impressive, I dont.

Chucky the tree · 23-01-2009 01:16AM

ALH-06 wrote: »

However you rate BOD as a player or as a captain, no blame, NONE, can be put on his shoulders for the RWC. That's absolutely criminal to do so. That particular incident - you can't rate him on one moment of (very understandable) frustration. Stringer threw a foolish pass and shouldn't have done. Margins are very thin in professional sport and the players know this. That pass killed the game and Ireland's hopes for the tournament.

I'm not attibuting that loss to BOD's absence as captain, I wouldn't dream of it. I was only trying to put into context what other people on these boards are saying with regard POC and BOD's captaining abilities.

wtf?

thehighground · 23-01-2009 01:30AM

ALH-06 wrote: »

However you rate BOD as a player or as a captain, no blame, NONE, can be put on his shoulders for the RWC. That's absolutely criminal to do so. That particular incident - you can't rate him on one moment of (very understandable) frustration. Stringer threw a foolish pass and shouldn't have done. Margins are very thin in professional sport and the players know this. That pass killed the game and Ireland's hopes for the tournament.

I don't blame BOD for the RWC disaster. That was all ROG and Peter Stringer's fault

That's the problem - everyone was looking for a scapegoat. It should be collective blame (or praise). Its a team sport. BOD is the captain. He takes on the responsibility to inspire other to do great things. They haven't performed great things when he is captain. (BOD has performed great things though as a player). He is a fantastic rugby player.

I'm not attibuting that loss to BOD's absence as captain, I wouldn't dream of it. I was only trying to put into context what other people on these boards are saying with regard POC and BOD's captaining abilities.

Well, its thrown up a lot that if BOD was on the pitch we would have won. I happen to think we would, not because of his leadership skills, but because of his rugby playing skills.

John_C · 23-01-2009 02:23AM

thehighground wrote: »

That's the problem - everyone was looking for a scapegoat. It should be collective blame (or praise). Its a team sport. BOD is the captain. He takes on the responsibility to inspire other to do great things. They haven't performed great things when he is captain.

We shouldn't scapegoat any single player ... it was BOD's fault.

anonymous_joe · 23-01-2009 03:26AM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

So people dont like Leo cullen cos he's from rock? The south Dublin excuse is b/s I think. Dennis Hickie went to a private south Dublin school and I doubt you find anyone with a bad word to say about him. If your going to put yourself in the media as much as BOD has your going to get abuse for it, no matter where your from.

BOD's more visible than any.

Let's face it, almost anyone with an interest in rugby in this country went to a private school. Lots of people resent that. For that reason, BOD, as the most visible of all Irish rugby players, who lived up to all the stereotypes... Of course he's unpopular.

Chucky the tree · 23-01-2009 03:42AM

anonymous_joe wrote: »

BOD's more visible than any.

Let's face it, almost anyone with an interest in rugby in this country went to a private school. Lots of people resent that. For that reason, BOD, as the most visible of all Irish rugby players, who lived up to all the stereotypes... Of course he's unpopular.

Going with an attention seeking supermodel didnt help his cause either to be fair. I certainly dont think it's because he went to a private school. I just think people tend to dislike people who are always in the media and BOD from his relationships/his book-moaning about Umaga/advertisements etc is bearing the brunt of that rather then because he went to a private school.

anonymous_joe · 23-01-2009 03:58AM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Going with an attention seeking supermodel didnt help his cause either to be fair. I certainly dont think it's because he went to a private school. I just think people tend to dislike people who are always in the media and BOD from his relationships/his book-moaning about Umaga/advertisements etc is bearing the brunt of that rather then because he went to a private school.

Perhaps so, but I'm judging my comments on those made by people who don't come from what would be called a traditional rugby background.

He certainly, as Ireland's first high profile rugby played, did became a bona fide celebritiy which is never popular.

Diamondmaker · 23-01-2009 08:37AM

Is it just me or did the tone of the whole thread change when a certain individual turned up with the usual, expected inflamatory comments.

Well at least for once it can all be kept here and wont ruin other thread.

No point debating here, the world rugby public think highly of him and every coach that he has ever played for has thought the same. The upcoming Lions tour wil again cinfrim this and DK will again confrim this by slecting him.

If one coach, just one thought he was worth dropping you may give some of the nay sayers some credence, but the professionals and his peers think highly of him so If a few random punters, anomously posting on a forum, dont agree, it does not really matter, who are they to judge?

RugbyFanatic · 23-01-2009 12:05PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Going with an attention seeking supermodel didnt help his cause either to be fair. I certainly dont think it's because he went to a private school. I just think people tend to dislike people who are always in the media and BOD from his relationships/his book-moaning about Umaga/advertisements etc is bearing the brunt of that rather then because he went to a private school.

You see that just doesn't wash with me. Who cares if he went out with a model thats no one's business but his and if your trying to claim one of the world's most famous rugby players went out with a model for extra attention thats bull****.

As for writting a book and moaning well a lot of Irish players have done that about far less petty stuff than nearly having their neck broken on what was supposed to be the pinnacle of their career it was his autobiography ffs and you don't expect him to talk about one of the biggest inciddents of his career?

As for advertisements it still doesn't wash with me why doesn't POC get the same abuse for doing Lucozade?? or ROG for lucozade, gillette, addidas? The fact is nearly every big, established name in Irish rugby does advertising and I would argue there are players that do far more than BOD yet still BOD gets abuse for it.

Its all down to this D4, private school going stereotype and its unfortunate to be honest. From listening to BOD over the years and from all accounts of people that do know him he is supposed to be a very down to earth, easy going individual.

Slagging BOD has nothing to do with what you listed above and everything to do with demographics. Wait for a few years down the line when Luke Fitzgerald or anyone with a South Dublin accent starts to talk more to the media etc. and the random punter starts to hear them and you will see the same happen. I Guarantee it.

Do you honestly think calling Leinster ladyboys is to do with how they are playing or do you think its to do with soft, posh boys stereotype I referred to?

The sooner this ****e ends the better.

premierstone · 23-01-2009 01:13PM

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

You see that just doesn't wash with me. Who cares if he went out with a model thats no one's business but his and if your trying to claim one of the world's most famous rugby players went out with a model for extra attention thats bull****.

Same reason that the majority of people on here are dismissive of Gavin Henson and Danny Cipriani in fairness im not sayin its right but its a fact and has nothing to do with private schools, Dublin 4 etc.

RugbyFanatic · 23-01-2009 01:24PM

premierstone wrote: »

Same reason that the majority of people on here are dismissive of Gavin Henson and Danny Cipriani in fairness im not sayin its right but its a fact and has nothing to do with private schools, Dublin 4 etc.

Gavin Henson and Cipriani are two completely different beasts.

The former admitted using fake tan, hair spray, waxing his legs and missed trainings and was photographed on the lash days before games whilst the later was regularly spotted out drinking till all hours and causing trouble.

SJPRogue · 23-01-2009 02:04PM

When it comes to rugby, BOD ROCKS!

I went to a private rugby school. Hated it. Hated the rugby players. think that as a person BOD has little personality and always says the right PC thing for the media. I've seen dozens like him.

Still, when it comes to rugby, BOD ROCKS & ALWAYS HAS ROCKED & WILL ALWAYS WILL CONTINUE TO ROCK!

old boy · 23-01-2009 03:24PM

he has to be one of the best ireland has produced, one time one of the best in the world, he was a great player, unfortunately he is not the player he was, which in my opinion is where this arguement starts and finishes, some people are of the opinion that he is still as good as in 2001, this is impossible, age, training, knocks, etc he is still playing reasonable well, the way the game has gone and his lack of speed over the first five yards is hampering him, perhaps kidney can come up with one play (set piece) in each game to release him, or someone to be released by him to give us a seven pointer.

Chucky the tree · 23-01-2009 04:26PM

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

You see that just doesn't wash with me. Who cares if he went out with a model thats no one's business but his and if your trying to claim one of the world's most famous rugby players went out with a model for extra attention thats bull****.

As for writting a book and moaning well a lot of Irish players have done that about far less petty stuff than nearly having their neck broken on what was supposed to be the pinnacle of their career it was his autobiography ffs and you don't expect him to talk about one of the biggest inciddents of his career?

As for advertisements it still doesn't wash with me why doesn't POC get the same abuse for doing Lucozade?? or ROG for lucozade, gillette, addidas? The fact is nearly every big, established name in Irish rugby does advertising and I would argue there are players that do far more than BOD yet still BOD gets abuse for it.

Its all down to this D4, private school going stereotype and its unfortunate to be honest. From listening to BOD over the years and from all accounts of people that do know him he is supposed to be a very down to earth, easy going individual.

Slagging BOD has nothing to do with what you listed above and everything to do with demographics. Wait for a few years down the line when Luke Fitzgerald or anyone with a South Dublin accent starts to talk more to the media etc. and the random punter starts to hear them and you will see the same happen. I Guarantee it.

Do you honestly think calling Leinster ladyboys is to do with how they are playing or do you think its to do with soft, posh boys stereotype I referred to?

The sooner this ****e ends the better.

As much as I agree it's none business that's just not how the world works. I'm sure people saw BOD and Glinda splashed over the front page of the star etc etc and just didnt like him/them for it. I never said he went out with her just for the media attention. Most people generally tend to dis-like "celebraties". It was the book really, it was the constant moaning afer the incident that irked alot of people.

The advertising just adds to the him being constantly in the media and at the for front of peoples thoughts and to him being one of the best irish rugby players produced.

Before the last few years rugby wasnt that popular and most people didnt like it, BOD being the poster for irish rugby he was just the main figure of hatred and it's generally people who still dont like rugby will hate him. Look at ROG and the rumours spread about him during the WC and the abuse he got, 10 times worse then anything BOD has had to ever face. I also remeber plenty of sly comments about him doing ads for the TV.

ManofMunster · 24-01-2009 12:18AM

was bod the best irish player of his generation? probably. will he be remembered as one of ireland's greatest ever players? probably. will he be remembered as a good captain/leader of men? probably not. should the ireland captaincy be given to a forward (there's a fairly obvious candidate)? probably.

let drico focus on his rugby. he's only thirty. no reason why he can't produce another two or three seasons for ireland. superb finisher, tough-as-nails tackler, great eye for a break and at one time had blistering pace. he still deserves his starting place for ireland - no question. and he'll probably make the starting line-up for the lions.

off the field, can't say i'm a huge fan of the perma-grin and the whole celebrity bird, smug git sh*te that seems to go with it. but if he helps this side win a long overdue six nations championship then i couldn't give a monkey's what he gets up to in his personal life.

Crash · 24-01-2009 12:26AM

You know, i've always questioned why people are so obsessed with the whole "captain should be a forward" thing. To be honest, the major risk there is having a player as captain who can't see the wood from the trees, forcing the option of keeping it up front rather than going out wide.

To me the obvious best option for any team is having a halfback as captain, seeing as they're a much larger part of the decision making during the game anyhow.

turtleshead · 24-01-2009 12:41AM

As an avid Munsterfan I have to say this, Brian O'Driscoll was one of the very few world class players this country has produced in the modern era, and hugely respected down here in Limerick and the rest of Munster. I still think he is worth taking on the lions tour if fit, however for Ireland I think we need to start looking at the 2011 world cup (I know o'driscoll will only be 32 pushing 33 but i dont think he will make it) and bringing players into the international arena in advance of that. Darren Cave is the obvious option for me, he has been outstanding for Ulster this season and definitely looks as an international in the making, Keith Earls gets a mention but is not playing enough at centre to merit selection.

Serenity Now! · 24-01-2009 12:58AM

premierstone wrote: »

Same reason that the majority of people on here are dismissive of Gavin Henson and Danny Cipriani in fairness im not sayin its right but its a fact and has nothing to do with private schools, Dublin 4 etc.

Good old fashioned spiteful jealousy. The Irish seem to love knocking their heroes/celebs/call'em-what-you-will...

Podge_irl · 24-01-2009 01:45AM

ManofMunster wrote: »

was bod the best irish player of his generation? probably. will he be remembered as one of ireland's greatest ever players? probably. will he be remembered as a good captain/leader of men? probably not. should the ireland captaincy be given to a forward (there's a fairly obvious candidate)? probably.

Best win/loss ratio of any Ireland captain. I certainly don't think BOD was Ireland's best captain ever and he started off quite poorly, but the notion that he was a bad captain is just plain silly. He has improved immeasurably since his first few efforts and has brought the team on to great heights. I don't think anyone could have stopped the decline that has happened in the previous number of years. It probably wouldn't hurt to have a new voice as captain at this stage, but I don't think BOD was or is a bad captain.

The notion that a forward should always be captain is silly. Forwards are more stuck into the nitty gritty, but backs have a better view of the overall game. I could name great captains from both sets of players.

ManofMunster · 24-01-2009 03:06AM

ok, i'll rephrase. should the ireland captaincy now be given to paul o'connell? probably. i have a personal preference for forwards as captains. half-backs would be my next choice. just think as a very general rule of thumb that wider backs are too far from the cut and thrust of the action to give leadership when and where it's required. of there have been some fine backs captains down the years but just a personal preference.

as for bod's captaincy, you could argue that he led ireland through one of its most successful eras. or you could argue that ireland are second on all time six nations points list but have won not a single championship in that time while england france and wales divvied up nine between them. and that perhaps the captain has to shoulder some of the blame for his side not performing in numerous crunch games over this period. i also don't think he always makes the best decisions when the pressure is - see castres game for recent example. and the least said about his rabble-rousing 'we will be victorious' speech the better.

quality player though (to keep ruggie bear happy

)

Podge_irl · 24-01-2009 03:22AM

ManofMunster wrote: »

i also don't think he always makes the best decisions when the pressure is - see castres game for recent example

O'Driscoll isn't even a vice-captain for Leinster. Cullen is the captain, followed by Whitaker and then Jennings.

I think, by and large, O'Driscoll makes the right choices as captain. He didn't initially, and it neither did O'Connell. It would have been my major concern with POC until recently but he has improved in that regard, much as BOD did. There is the issue of the team under-performing, but I remain of the opinion that that was due to a staleness then there was little BOD could do about. I would go as far to say that the only reason we expected more of the team was because BOD has dragged them through so much over the years that we had an over-inflated expectation of what they were capable of.

Chucky the tree · 24-01-2009 04:27AM

I was about to agree that I think the argument that forwards make better captains is stupid but then I tried to think of great captains who played in the backs as a counter arguement and I am struggling. George Gregan is the only one who came to mind straight away.

ManofMunster · 24-01-2009 12:20PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

O'Driscoll isn't even a vice-captain for Leinster. Cullen is the captain, followed by Whitaker and then Jennings.

did you see the game, podge? i was referring to his decision near the end to grab the ball of a teammate and take a quick penalty kick to touch himself with kearney and contepomi on the pitch and time still on the clock. needless to say he failed to make touch by some distance ending whatever hope they had of a comeback (they were only three points down). everyone makes mistakes now and again; i just wouldn't put 'good decision-making under pressure' too high on bod's list of attributes.

The Brian O'Driscoll thread

Comments