BER Cert cost?

Slig · 19-01-2009 12:20PM

Red Camel wrote: »

Would these be the construction qualifications of the people involved in building tens of thousands of poor quality houses over the last 15 years?

-blame the quality control. Unfortunately Architects/technicians cant afford to have principles if we want to be hired. No matter how much we argue for better construction methods it all comes down to the bottom line.

Slig · 19-01-2009 12:21PM

No6 wrote: »

You could be spot on there slig!!!

This is a landmark, only 840 posts and I finally got something right:D

No6 · 19-01-2009 12:24PM

Red Camel wrote: »

Would these be the construction qualifications of the people involved in building tens of thousands of poor quality houses over the last 15 years?

Strangely I was under the impression that is was builders & developers who built the tens of thousands of poor quality houses.

Energysaver · 19-01-2009 12:29PM

Lots of people have been made redundant from the construction industry (and other industries), there is an over supply of BER assessors and a lower demand for ratings than originally expected because of the housing downturn. Common sense tells you that all this is going to drive down prices. Some of the posters here imply that for them €35 per hour isn't worth getting out of bed for.

If you've got a family to feed and a mortgage to pay and no job, then €35/hr would be more than welcome. €35/hr for 40 hours a week for 42 weeks a year is over €58k per year before (relatively low) expenses.

Wake up people, the days of the construction industry ripping off the public are over.

Energysaver · 19-01-2009 12:30PM

No6 wrote: »

Strangely I was under the impression that is was builders & developers who built the tens of thousands of poor quality houses.

Weren't the engineers involved at all then?

Energysaver · 19-01-2009 12:33PM

Slig wrote: »

-blame the quality control. Unfortunately Architects/technicians cant afford to have principles if we want to be hired. No matter how much we argue for better construction methods it all comes down to the bottom line.

Are you arguing that these people who can't afford to have principles should now be paid a premium rate for carrying our BERs because they will do a better job than others?

brianmacl · 19-01-2009 12:36PM

A fair number of Surveyors will also be BER Assessors, so this is a good point. Further more as the Surveryor does not have to get a new cert just a rating there is €30 knocked off the price straight away. then most surveyors will reduce the price of the additional service because they are already out at the property.

If it differs the property owner will have a choice to either correct the property or bargin. (in this case the original Assessor may be liable) remember all offers on property should alway be made subject to Contract / Contract Denied and subject to survey.

I think that a good flexible assessor should help the owner get as good a rating as possible by showing the owner what effects minor changes would have if carried out. Then they should give the owner an option to carry out such works and hold of on issueing the cert until they re assess the property.

Slig wrote: »

That is the conclusion that I came to. Obvairiously the more accurate the rating the better it is for the purchaser. As its the vendor thats responsible for getting the survey carried out it is not in their interrest to get the most accurate rating, its to get the best rating (and from what I know of the programme best accuracy does not equal best result.)

So the conclusion I would come to is that along with the snag/structural survey the potential purchaser should also budget for a BER cert. The result between the 2 will inevitably be different which
A: Will provide bargaining power for the purchaser
B: Could incourage the vendor to get an accurate survey done in the first place
C: Give SEI a bit of help weeding the crop of BER assessors

Energysaver · 19-01-2009 12:36PM

topcatcbr wrote: »

... Most people will not do much more than 5 hrs work a day if they are honest with themselves...

But you still expect to earn a full-time wage?
Is this what the Celtic Tiger has done to us?

MicktheMan · 19-01-2009 12:40PM

Slig wrote: »

So the conclusion I would come to is that along with the snag/structural survey the potential purchaser should also budget for a BER cert. The result between the 2 will inevitably be different which
A: Will provide bargaining power for the purchaser
B: Could incourage the vendor to get an accurate survey done in the first place
C: Give SEI a bit of help weeding the crop of BER assessors

The ber wont tell a purchaser if the insulation is effective or performing correctly or if the house is air tight (big hole behind kitchen units) or if 30% of oils is being wasted to the ground between the boiler house and the house no matter who does the ber. The ber doesn't do workmanship!!The only way for the purchaser to know all the energy issues with a house before moving in and freezing is to have a proper heat loss survey (ti and att) carried out before purchasing. This will then give them real bargaining power!

Red Camel · 19-01-2009 12:40PM

topcatcbr wrote: »

Most people will not do much more than 5 hrs work a day if they are honest with themselves.

The ones who aren't lazy will.:rolleyes:

sydthebeat · 19-01-2009 12:53PM

Energysaver wrote: »

If you've got a family to feed and a mortgage to pay and no job, then €35/hr would be more than welcome. €35/hr for 40 hours a week for 42 weeks a year is over €58k per year before (relatively low) expenses.
.

if you are doing bers at 40 hrs per week, 42 weeks per year then fair dues..

but i would serious doubt that....

house completions has dried up.. the existing housing stock for sale / rental is an unrealistic standard to measure the future by.. .once the 100,000 or so existing stock is cleared there will not be enough work for a BER to make a full time living on.

Slig · 19-01-2009 01:07PM

Energysaver wrote: »

Are you arguing that these people who can't afford to have principles should now be paid a premium rate for carrying our BERs because they will do a better job than others?

As this thread as gone on for 6-7 pages at this stage I can assume that either the original question has been answered or it will never be. Either way I think a little OT banter wont disrupt the results.

If you had the option of getting an accurate B3 rating or a cheap poorly done B1 rating which would you opt for? (Thankfully the BER process isnt as clear cut as this and a bad survey can just as easily yeild a C1 as a B1)

I have had to design housing estates with small gardens and compact house types just to yield the most units and therefor biggest profits for the developer, If I refused I would have lost the job. The difference is that I knew what was small and what was too small. When it came to construction it was the developers that took over and cut corners.
There were many occasions that we refused to sign off on construction but there was always someone else that would.

There is undeniabily a bad standard of construction in this country but to assume the architect, relying on payment from the developer, to provide an unbiased quality control role, while the Building Control department do nothing, is asking alot.
How many architects would be in business if everybody that wanted a one-off house in the country was told that they should live in the town?

We get paid by the client, if they want a poor build then we will inform them of the minimum standards (how they follow on from that is their own business). If they want an energy efficient building with a high standard of building we will design to that.

sinnerboy · 19-01-2009 01:43PM

Indeed Slig . Around Dublin we experience often the client who aspires to shop in BT .....but on seeing the cost ... crosses the road to M+S

Energysaver · 19-01-2009 01:51PM

Slig wrote: »

If you had the option of getting an accurate B3 rating or a cheap poorly done B1 rating which would you opt for? (Thankfully the BER process isnt as clear cut as this and a bad survey can just as easily yeild a C1 as a B1)

You are making the assumption that just because someone offers to do a BER at a lower price than you then it will be poorly done. If you look at the widely ranging prices (€250 - €500+) they are not simply explained by some assessors not being engineers. Prices between different engineers vary quite a bit too - so should I only go to the most expensive engineer to ensure that my BER is done "properly". Maybe I should avoid technicians completely, because from your logic they won't be as good as an engineer. Maybe I should insist that the assessor has a PhD in construction studies to ensure that the assessment is really, really well done. What about a Professor - I'm sure that I'd get a really excellent assessment then.:rolleyes:

BTW, I'm an engineer.;)

Energysaver · 19-01-2009 01:56PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

if you are doing bers at 40 hrs per week, 42 weeks per year then fair dues..

but i would serious doubt that....

I am.

I agree that in 12 months the market will be different, but who knows how good or bad it could be. Does anyone know the future in volatile times? Hey, the USA could even have a black president by then:D

Red Camel · 19-01-2009 01:59PM

Slig wrote: »

This is a landmark, only 840 posts and I finally got something right:D

What does it feel like? I've never been right in my life.:(

Slig · 19-01-2009 02:08PM

Energysaver wrote: »

You are making the assumption that just because someone offers to do a BER at a lower price than you then it will be poorly done. If you look at the widely ranging prices (€250 - €500+) they are not simply explained by some assessors not being engineers. Prices between different engineers vary quite a bit too - so should I only go to the most expensive engineer to ensure that my BER is done "properly". Maybe I should avoid technicians completely, because from your logic they won't be as good as an engineer. Maybe I should insist that the assessor has a PhD in construction studies to ensure that the assessment is really, really well done. What about a Professor - I'm sure that I'd get a really excellent assessment then.:rolleyes:

BTW, I'm an engineer.;)

Lets not get silly here. I have never said that a cheap survey is a bad one. (But realistically why would anyone spend alot of time and effort carrying out an accurate survey and charge peanuts for it?)
My whole point is WHY would somebody want an accurate survey done in the first place?
If I wanted a house designed I would not go to an engineer or an Arch Tech. I would go to an Architect. Sure I would pay for it but the end result is something that would really affect me.

I could get the same result for a BER from anybody and it really doesnt matter how accurate it is.

All this BS about how it really matters what construction qualification is better is rubbish. At the end of the day all that matters is that some construction knowledge is used to carry out a survey.

sydthebeat · 19-01-2009 02:14PM

I completely agree with slig about the focus being made on someone with a construction background. Im an AT yet i have a lot of trouble identifying different heating controls. I have had to walk houses with plumbers / electricians in order for them to identify to me how 'separate time control of domestic water in summer' is achieved... and its not simply a switch on a boiler!...

recognizing a 'load compensator' is hard.

recognizing a boiler interlock system is also hard...

these are easy on a 2005 onwards house, but anything previous and it take a fair amount of time to actually take account of what the actual controls are.

topcatcbr · 19-01-2009 02:16PM

Energysaver wrote: »

You are making the assumption that just because someone offers to do a BER at a lower price than you then it will be poorly done. If you look at the widely ranging prices (€250 - €500+) they are not simply explained by some assessors not being engineers. Prices between different engineers vary quite a bit too - so should I only go to the most expensive engineer to ensure that my BER is done "properly". Maybe I should avoid technicians completely, because from your logic they won't be as good as an engineer. Maybe I should insist that the assessor has a PhD in construction studies to ensure that the assessment is really, really well done. What about a Professor - I'm sure that I'd get a really excellent assessment then.:rolleyes:

Are you suggesting that those that got into this from a non construction backround will be as good as those who qualified for the scheme as it was meant.

But you still expect to earn a full-time wage?
Is this what the Celtic Tiger has done to us?

I think if i work directly for a client i will have to charge more due to the fact you will not be paid for the time you are not working. If you are working for an employer there will always be time when you will be paid for time when you are not productive. this is the nature of work. and this is why you would be expected to get paid less.
If you were only to charge your clients the same as you would expect from a full time employer then why bother and save yourself the trouble and just work for someone who will do your tax pay your holidays cover your CPD and provide you with the facilities and equipment to do all the work.

BTW, I'm an engineer.;)

There is a thread to discuss what you would expect to earn from Client / Employer. Id be interested to hear what you think.

No6 · 19-01-2009 02:36PM

We are going is so many circles here we could all be architects!!! I would hope that the system will bed down in the next few months and SEI will do a lot of quality control and weed out the bad assessors (if there are any!!) whether they are cheap or expensive. As has been pointed out the market will find its own level and then we can individually decide if its worth doing it or not.

sinnerboy · 19-01-2009 03:07PM

No6 wrote: »

we can individually decide if its worth doing it or not.

it isn't - i am turning down plenty of existing BER / existing untill the tide turns . might not renew my registration even

topcatcbr · 19-01-2009 04:01PM

sinnerboy wrote: »

it isn't - i am turning down plenty of existing BER / existing untill the tide turns . might not renew my registration even

I wouldnt give up now as it costs so little to keep registered and insured compared to setting up.

I wouldnt drop prices but offer a consistant service

muffler · 19-01-2009 04:06PM

topcatcbr wrote: »

I wouldnt drop prices but offer a consistant service

Thought it couldnt be done

Energysaver · 19-01-2009 04:08PM

No6 wrote: »

We are going is so many circles here we could all be architects!!! I would hope that the system will bed down in the next few months and SEI will do a lot of quality control and weed out the bad assessors (if there are any!!) whether they are cheap or expensive. As has been pointed out the market will find its own level and then we can individually decide if its worth doing it or not.

I agree, and the sooner the national exam is introduced the better.
The market is in turmoil and hopefully it will settle in 6 - 9 months.
You've hit the nail on the head - the market will find it's own level (because unlike most markets in this country there is genuine competition) and then everyone will know how much money there is in it for them and then they can decide if it's worth it or not.

I'd better get on - lots of BERs to do.

Energysaver · 19-01-2009 04:12PM

sinnerboy wrote: »

it isn't - i am turning down plenty of existing BER / existing untill the tide turns . might not renew my registration even

If you're turning down work then you should increase you price to the point that you generate just the level of business that you need at the price that is acceptable (if the two things are consistent).

topcatcbr · 19-01-2009 04:44PM

muffler wrote: »

Thought it couldnt be done

You could do them for free if you payed the SEI fee yourself and worked at a loss but it would be an expensive hobby.:D

No6 · 19-01-2009 05:42PM

topcatcbr wrote: »

You could do them for free if you payed the SEI fee yourself and worked at a loss but it would be an expensive hobby.:D

I told your before, do them for free but charge expenses like travel at 1 euro per meter!!!!:D See you in Galway tomorrow roads permitting!!!

muffler · 19-01-2009 05:46PM

No6 wrote: »

I told your before, do them for free but charge expenses like travel at 1 euro per meter!!!!:D See you in Galway tomorrow roads permitting!!!

Christ is that the next of it. They're only making roads to Galway now

topcatcbr · 19-01-2009 05:53PM

No6 wrote: »

I told your before, do them for free but charge expenses like travel at 1 euro per meter!!!!:D See you in Galway tomorrow roads permitting!!!

Cant trust roads in such remote corner of the world:D

Im going by train:p

dunie001 · 19-01-2009 06:20PM

I just want to point out some thing to everyone posting on this thread about carrying out a BER certs.

If an assessor is doing the BER Cert as he/she is supposed to then they'd be doing extremely well to get one BER Cert finished every two days or two weeks, never mind two a day!!!

Example:
First of all, let's presume that the house is an Existing Dwelling that was extended, renovated, retro fitted, had new heating system changed, cavity walls pumped etc. etc. etc.
Now let's presume that an assessor agrees to do the BER on a house like that:

Stages involved:

1st Day:
1. They have a lot of research and chasing up to do just to make damn sure that the BER will end up being legit. i.e. get invoices from clients for every single upgrade fitted (making sure that they correspond to the house being assessed) They also have to make sure that there is adequate proof of the retrofit and make the appropriate changes to the u-values and building elements etc. in DEAP.

2. Then presuming that the assessor manages to get all that and the survey done in the first day, and also go back to the office and do up the calculations on DEAP that same evening...

2nd Day:
3. They will then have to tell the said home-owner what the rating is...B2 or E... and that if they do x,y,z to the house then the new rating will be B1 or whatever.

4. Then if, by sure luck the said home-owner decides not to do the improvements then the assessor can go ahead and publish the Energy Certificate and make some money.

Alternatively:
Two Weeks later:

5. However if the home-owner decides to do said improvements to the house, the assessor must wait a further two weeks minimum for the home-owners to eventually get around to doing the improvement...then the assessor has to go back to the house to check that the improvements are completed as claimed, do some more adjustments on DEAP and finally issue a BER Cert and make some money.

So if any Assessor can do all that for less than €200 and still say afterwards that they made good money from it...i'd like to know where they spend their money...coz it couldn't be in Ireland!!!

BER Cert cost?

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