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Words fail me..

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  • #272
    Quint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭Quint


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    How many games a year do the provinces play? It seems like sports "fans" in this country are only interested in following sides that don't play a huge amount of games each year, i.e. Ireland rugby and footie teams, GAA counties (most fans don't do winter) and rugby's provincial sides.

    Any football franchise here playing in the Barclays League or a pan-European competition will be playing 40 odd games a season. Too much effort for most of their potential customers imho.

    The difference with provencial rugby is that you can go along to a Leinster game and see world class players like O'Driscoll, Contipomi, Darcy, Elsom, CJ van der Linde etc. Plenty of Irish international at the top level. You can watch them play against teams with other established internationals. Competing for the Heineken Cup, the equivalent of the Champions League. Don't try and fool yourself and pretend the reason people go to rugby is because there's less games!


  • #273
    SectionF
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,890 ✭✭✭SectionF


    Quint wrote: »
    The difference with provencial rugby is that you can go along to a Leinster game and see world class players like O'Driscoll, Contipomi, Darcy, Elsom, CJ van der Linde etc. Plenty of Irish international at the top level. You can watch them play against teams with other established internationals.
    So why is it being touted as a model for football?


  • #274
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,097 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Quint wrote: »
    The difference with provencial rugby is that you can go along to a Leinster game and see world class players like O'Driscoll, Contipomi, Darcy, Elsom, CJ van der Linde etc. Plenty of Irish international at the top level. You can watch them play against teams with other established internationals. Competing for the Heineken Cup, the equivalent of the Champions League. Don't try and fool yourself and pretend the reason people go to rugby is because there's less games!

    You're missing my point. I'm saying Irish sports "fans" don't seem interested in going regularly to watch a team that plays 20+ home games a season and are happy with supporting sides that don't involve to much of a regular effort. You only have to look at how crowds disapper for GAA inter-county games in the winter to see how fickle these people are.

    Is there a market here for Dublin Franchise v Wigan on a Saturday and then on a Wednesday v Bolton with both games in Lansdowne and cheapest tickets forty notes? :rolleyes:


  • #275
    Jazzy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,315 ✭✭✭Jazzy


    Des wrote: »

    What would draw fans?

    im not exactly sure what would draw me. i was at the UCD - Galway match towards the end of the season and tbh, it was sh1te. it was a bit of a laugh being there and that sorta thing but it was a really really REALLY awful game. ppl say that the quality arguement doesnt count but if u do go to a game and it is that bad it definately doesnt make me want to come back. my other option is Bray Wanderers and from what ive seen of them, they are terrible too.
    i have no connection to these clubs bar the fact that they are close to me and if i were to start going to local games, id want them to be local. i dont want to go all the way to tallaght every friday night to watch rovers or to tolka to watch shels. if im going to go to a game and support a local side it would help if they didnt play boring unproductive and lazy football. from the UCD - Galway match i saw f-all effort and no passion. as i said, i actually had more respect and more fun watching my college side every wednesday lunch time


  • #276
    themont85
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,608 ✭✭✭themont85


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    So maybe 15 games in a 52 week year. Seems I made a very valid point then.

    Not really at all tbh. Whats it in the Premier league, 19 home games a year. A few cup games and on average its probably just over 20 home games a year(im discounting the CL sides who obviousely have more games).

    You have a very defeatest attitude about Irish people going to games regularly. Rugby doesn't have the universal appeal of soccer yet they can draw consistant home crowds. Soccer is exremelly popular here, there is no reason why there can't be well followed football here.
    Des wrote: »
    Who supports these new clubs?

    Not me, that's for sure.

    What you are proposing is that we scrap teams that already have a following, however small, in favour of teams which NOBODY will support.

    History shows that the vast majority of Irish people have zero interest in supporting a national league. By scrapping the teams which already exist, you are then getting rid of the small amount of people who do actively follow the league. How could I support some other club above Shelbourne? WHY would I support Dublin United. You expect me to stand shoulder with Bohs, Rovers and Pats fans? Get a bleedin' grip here.

    Where will they play? The same stadiums currently used? Sure people won't go to them. What makes you think this will change by inventing new teams?

    Where will they get money? Nobody is investing in the current clubs, why would they invest in the newly invented clubs? People don't go to matches, why would they go matches for the new teams?

    What would draw fans?

    I ask this of every person who ever suggests franchise football, and I never get an answer.

    You see this is the thing, you say nobody will support these teams because they are starting from the bottom. Essentially pro rugby started from the bottom, now look at it. I've already sighted Leinster, i think it was 2004 and just over 2k went to a game which can now be filled multiple times over.

    Finance is a problem naturally but imo a major fault in soccer has been the fact that it hasn't been centrally organised like rugby or Gaa. Each club goes of on its own tangent. A rationalisation of resources can work.


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  • #277
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Jazzy wrote: »
    from the UCD - Galway match i saw f-all effort and no passion. as i said, i actually had more respect and more fun watching my college side every wednesday lunch time
    To be fair, basing your opinion on UCD vs Galway, a bottom of the table clash between the worst team Ive seen in LOI for many a year, in the ground every LOI fan hates going to and a nervous Galway on the brink of disaster is hardly a reflection of the overall quality of the league.
    themont85 wrote:
    You see this is the thing, you say nobody will support these teams because they are starting from the bottom.
    You are essentially talking about creating a new football structure in Ireland which excludes all existing fans as a solution to general apathy for the game here.

    Its just ridiculous.


  • #278
    smackbunnybaby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,335 ✭✭✭smackbunnybaby


    CiaranC wrote: »
    To be fair, basing your opinion on UCD vs Galway, a bottom of the table clash between the worst team Ive seen in LOI for many a year, in the ground every LOI fan hates going to and a nervous Galway on the brink of disaster is hardly a reflection of the overall quality of the league.

    it is if there are 10-12 teams in the division and that is the top division...


  • #279
    Pure Cork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 672 ✭✭✭Pure Cork


    themont85 wrote: »
    You see this is the thing, you say nobody will support these teams because they are starting from the bottom. Essentially pro rugby started from the bottom, now look at it. I've already sighted Leinster, i think it was 2004 and just over 2k went to a game which can now be filled multiple times over.

    Finance is a problem naturally but imo a major fault in soccer has been the fact that it hasn't been centrally organised like rugby or Gaa. Each club goes of on its own tangent. A rationalisation of resources can work.
    Pure Cork wrote: »
    There's already leagues like the MSL, LSL, etc. The LOI is the pinnacle of Irish football. Why would you get rid of clubs that have fans and history, and replace them with franchises? I could understand if you were suggesting restructuring the league, restructuring clubs, etc. Where would you have the franchises based? How many franchises would there be?
    .


  • #280
    Gavin "shels"
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,980 ✭✭✭✭Gavin "shels"


    themont85 wrote: »
    Not really at all tbh. Whats it in the Premier league, 19 home games a year. A few cup games and on average its probably just over 20 home games a year(im discounting the CL sides who obviousely have more games).

    And how many would the majority of Oirish "fans" go to? Maybe 1, or if a Champions League final, FA Cup final, etc... arises they might make a few prawn sandwiches and pop over to that.:rolleyes:


  • #281
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,097 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    themont85 wrote: »
    Not really at all tbh. Whats it in the Premier league, 19 home games a year. A few cup games and on average its probably just over 20 home games a year(im discounting the CL sides who obviousely have more games).

    So that's over twice as many home games then............. :rolleyes:
    themont85 wrote: »
    You have a very defeatest attitude about Irish people going to games regularly.

    It's safe to say I don't. I've a realist attitude. One that is obtained from looking at the facts to hand.

    As I've already pointed out, where do all the "loyal" GAA fans go when their county is playing in the winter???? Most people in Ireland just couldn't be arsed on too much of a regular basis.

    I'll repeat my point again. What sort of crowds will turn up for "top class" football when dublin Franchise are playing Bolton and Wigan?

    And what happens if they get relegated? Sell-out crowds at Lansdowne for the visit of Doncaster?


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  • #282
    Pure Cork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 672 ✭✭✭Pure Cork


    smackbunnybaby wrote: »
    it is if there are 10-12 teams in the division and that is the top division...
    The team who finished in last place and the team who escaped relegation by one point reflect the whole quality of the league? I'd be laughed out of it if I said that Derby, Fulham, and Newcastle reflected the overall quality of the EPL for the 07/08 season.


  • #283
    Jazzy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,315 ✭✭✭Jazzy


    Gavin shels wrote: »
    And how many would the majority of Oirish "fans" go to? Maybe 1, or if a Champions League final, FA Cup final, etc... arises they might make a few prawn sandwiches and pop over to that.:rolleyes:

    do u mean to throw in so many cliches into ur sentences ?


    but yeah ciaran, the standard didnt help at all. tbh, that was the game i would have had the most connection to. UCD is near me and i knew folks who played for them once upon a time and I was in class with one of the Galway players and another was a year ahead in school. i went with the intention of trying to find a reason to go and aside from me and my mates getting pissed before during and after the match there was no reason to return watsoever


  • #284
    themont85
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,608 ✭✭✭themont85


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    So that's over twice as many home games then............. :rolleyes:

    Not really, maybe 22 games for the average English teams. Not over twice as many if i count correctly. I gurantee there would be a similar attendence number if Leinster had 20 home games a year, its just rugby is attritional and is different to football in that there are no mid week games.

    Leinster vs Glasgow Warriors isn't glamouous but people still go. The public may initally have been attracted by the glamour of the HC but a rather large proportion stay to go to the run of the mill not so exciting ML games.


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    It's safe to say I don't. I've a realist attitude. One that is obtained from looking at the facts to hand.

    As I've already pointed out, where do all the "loyal" GAA fans go when their county is playing in the winter???? Most people in Ireland just couldn't be arsed on too much of a regular basis.

    I'll repeat my point again. What sort of crowds will turn up for "top class" football when dublin Franchise are playing Bolton and Wigan?

    And what happens if they get relegated? Sell-out crowds at Lansdowne for the visit of Doncaster?

    Facts at hand, well your paintentally ignoring my pro rugby example as one of a successful operation which has gone beyond just glamour ties. I don't want to see a Dublin team in the EPL, I want an All Ireland soccer league in this country with i reckon a cap of 10 teams in it. That could easily attract averages of 20k at it if it was done properly. Champions league football would be attainable with such a league and it would be more than viable imo.

    Your are clearly defeatest and are an example of why pro soccer will never go far in this country with your attitude. The best you can do in this argument is basically criticise Irish people in general.


  • #285
    dreamers75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,558 ✭✭✭✭dreamers75


    Jazzy wrote: »
    aside from me and my mates getting pissed before during and after the match there was no reason to return watsoever

    **** lads he has found the real secret to Friday Night football. :D

    in fairness many a beer has got me tru a UCD game.


  • #286
    Pure Cork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 672 ✭✭✭Pure Cork


    themont85 wrote: »
    I want an All Ireland soccer league in this country with i reckon a cap of 10 teams in it. That could easily attract averages of 20k at it if it was done properly. Champions league football would be attainable with such a league and it would be more than viable imo.
    Once again:
    Pure Cork wrote: »
    There's already leagues like the MSL, LSL, etc. The LOI is the pinnacle of Irish football. Why would you get rid of clubs that have fans and history, and replace them with franchises? I could understand if you were suggesting restructuring the league, restructuring clubs, etc. Where would you have the franchises based? How many franchises would there be?

    List of questions:
    1. Why would you get rid of clubs that have fans and history and replace them with franchises?

    2. Why wouldn't any of the current LOI clubs be capable of competing in this franchise league?

    3. Why couldn't the current league and clubs be restructured?

    4. Would IL clubs not be allowed in this AIL franchise league, but only new franchises?

    5. Where would you have franchises based? Who would they represent?

    6. How many times would teams play each other in this ten-team league?

    7. Who is going to set up the franchises?

    8. Where are the franchises going to play their games? Will there be new stadiums built? Where's the money going to come from for the stadiums? Will it be possible to get planning permission to build these stadiums?

    9. Is it that simple to set up an AIL? Will both the FAI and IFA agree to it? What will happen to the number of European places?

    themont85 wrote: »
    Your are clearly defeatest and are an example of why pro soccer will never go far in this country with your attitude. The best you can do in this argument is basically criticise Irish people in general.
    He has a realist attitude, not a defeatest attitude. I'm not thrilled about the idea of a franchise league, and I have asked a number of questions more than once on this thread, and I've yet to get satisfactory answers. Am I defeatest too? I haven't just criticised Irish people in general. It is a fact that Irish people prefer glamour sports like the EPL, the H Cup, GAA Championship games (rather than league games), hurlers over footballers (in Cork). I'm a big fan of the GAA, so I'm not being bitter criticising people who support sports that i've no interest in. Isn't part of the reason of setting up franchises to make football in this country seem more glamourous?


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