Poland - 'No Irish need apply'

Terry · 02-01-2009 11:58AM

Rb wrote: »

Sounds like they took yer jawb Terry?

Quite a few of them actually.

It's not very nice driving all the way to a job, onl to get there and see someone else has already started it.

Mind you, I don't really blame the Poles for that.
Free market and all that.
They have no right to complain about wages here if they are the ones setting the prices though.

Some people are just too up their own arses to phone the person they first asked to do the job and tell them that they got someone else to do it.

javaboy · 02-01-2009 12:00PM

And to think. This entire mess started because old Mrs. McGinnity who runs a corner shop got fed up of telling people she was out of Pledge and just put a sign in the window.

Solair · 02-01-2009 12:00PM

I'd like to see a photo of one of the signs !

I have to say though, while there maybe unscrupulous employers (and they exist in every country). We (as a nation) did put serious machinary in place to combat discrimination in the work place. If you put a sign up like that in Ireland on a site or anywhere else you'd be spending rather a lot of time in court.

These guys had the same rights as anyone else, if they were prepared to go out and seek to have them enforced. Half the problem was that people were willing to accept bad working conditions and not challenge them. While I have every respect and deep concern about the abuse of workers in any situation, the Polish community in Ireland are not illegal immigrants, they're not on work permits and have IDENTICAL rights to an Irish citizen when it comes to employment law. If they were being abused in the work place, there are very serious ways of redressing that situation. There were other nationalities who were FAR more vulnerable to abuse as they were not EU citizens and were reliant on our archaic work permit system which effectively bonds you to a single employer, or were working illegally thus had to take whatever was on offer. I have heard horror stories from both Ireland and the UK from Chinese nationals who have ended up in this situation.

I'm Irish and I know that I did temp work with various agencies while I was doing a masters and was treated like total dirt. Problems with being paid late, being underpaid, assignments ending without proper notice etc etc..

There are plenty of unscrupulous employers, landlords etc out there, but I doubt they're unique to Ireland. People have to stand up to them too!

getz · 02-01-2009 12:04PM

Solair wrote: »

The building industry's always treated workers like dirt. It's nothing new, once they can get away with it.

Look at how badly Irish workers were treated in the UK in the 1960s/70s. I [have seen shocking abuse of foreign workers, mostly from Poland and other parts of Eastern Europe in the UK too and clearly it went on here.]

I am wondering if that "No Irish" sign is just a single one off ?

Also, is there a massive movement of Irish people to Poland ? I haven't seen any evidence of this. The wages are really low relative to here, I'd say a lot of people would re-train / look towards English speaking markets before they'd move to somewhere like Poland.

what a load of crap i lived in london in 1960s-1970s i never met any anti irishness yet even then the IRA was collecting in the irish clubs-the only racism i came across was when a drunken irish lady came into my pub[in ladbrook grove] heard my manchester accent and told me to f...k off back to my own country

galwayrush · 02-01-2009 12:07PM

I couldn't imagine too many Irish flocking to Poland for work that would enable them to send home enough money each week to keep their families in the relative comfort we have become accoustomed to here in Ireland.:rolleyes:

Ordinary man · 02-01-2009 12:07PM

I worked with a lot of nationalities in the building trade over the last few years and we all had to put up with a lot of ****ty conditions on site and hectic deadlines. The one thing i noiced was the polish were the first to complain about their rights. They were all union workers and constantly on about what they deserved.

Not all irish workers were getting the full entitlements but most just put up and shut up. I found lithuanians and latvians were a more flexible and likeable kind of workmate to work with.

mikemac · 02-01-2009 12:08PM

<3BeingIN6th wrote: »

So the Poles come over here, undercut the locals and then complain about being underpaid?

Yes it goes on but I direct my venom at greedy Irish employers and not people here just looking for work and save some money and experience a new country.
Irish people were undercut, picket the employers who pocketed pension entitlements and did other illegal actions, not hassle and blame the workers.

Rb wrote: »

I don't think there is any significant movement of Irish people to Poland and I agree, I think it's far more likely that people will head towards English speaking countries than Poland.

Agreed, not many Irish builders will be going . Of cousre some will but wages are comparitivly low.

Welcome back Rb!

Solair wrote: »

The building industry's always treated workers like dirt. It's nothing new, once they can get away with it.

I don't know the building trade but I know tourism/hospitality any everyone gets gets treated like dirt, Irish included

And certainly I saw many Polish people benig underpaid, I'd try to help them out but only so much you can do.

The people who were treated worst of all were from the Phillipines, I believe they apply for a work permit and are tied to an employer. Maybe one day it'll improve.

SimpleSam06 · 02-01-2009 12:08PM

Vadrefjorde wrote: »

Google polish + non payment + ESB = one of the most prominent cases.

That was actually the non-Irish sub contractors that refused to pay for work done, not the ESB, as I understand it.

To be honest I can't say I'm terribly surprised at this news. They come here to "earn and learn", a direct quote from a Polish poster recently, and they have no intention of giving anything back. That makes them rather unwelcome guests to the party, in my opinion. They were invited to ours, came, and ate their fill from our rather small table, but we don't get invited to theirs.

What we should be doing is taking a page from our fellow EU members and keeping the borders closed to EE workers until 2011 or 2012, or even better leave it till a few years after they have opened their borders so their enormously larger populations can absorb the huge numbers of impoverished from Eastern Europe.

And for the love of christ, before the usual crowd leaps on this post with two boots, and I'm looking at you Kintarō Hattori, personally I have no problems with Polish people or EE people generally. I even speak a little Russian. But on the larger economic scale, they aren't doing us any good - quite the opposite.

Yes, they pay taxes, but taxes are also a drain on the economy, not an advantage. 400,000 migrants in a country of 4 million, dedicated to sending as much money out of the economy as they can, you do the maths. Keep in mind that not all of the remainder of that population are working, or are working in the public sector (300k) which gets paid from the tax take.

I might just leave it there rather than trying to hammer economic reality into the thick heads of those who would love to find an authentic anti immigrant racist in their midst. Its really not worth it for what is a deliberate misunderstanding on their part. Have at it, sure.

All will become clear regardless, in due time. Pre-emptive "bah".

Solair · 02-01-2009 12:10PM

getz wrote: »

what a load of crap i lived in london in 1960s-1970s i never met any anti irishness yet even then the IRA was collecting in the irish clubs-the only racism i came across was when a drunken irish lady came into my pub[in ladbrook grove] heard my manchester accent and told me to f...k off back to my own country

I've never come across any in modern times either, but there's plenty of evidence to indicate that there was plenty of it about during that period. Perhaps you were just lucky with your particular experience. Your Manchester accent may also have helped!

SimpleSam06 · 02-01-2009 12:10PM

mikemac wrote: »

The people who were treated worst of all were from the Phillipines, I believe they apply for a work permit and are tied to an employer. Maybe one day it'll improve.

Actually I know a shedload of Filipinos, and they rarely have much bad to say about their workplaces. Thats not to say there aren't horror stories, but most are doing okay.

Rb · 02-01-2009 12:12PM

<3BeingIN6th wrote: »

Quite a few of them actually.

It's not very nice driving all the way to a job, onl to get there and see someone else has already started it.

Mind you, I don't really blame the Poles for that.
Free market and all that.
They have no right to complain about wages here if they are the ones setting the prices though.

Some people are just too up their own arses to phone the person they first asked to do the job and tell them that they got someone else to do it.

I absolutely agree with the emboldened statement, however I think that the employers themselves bear a lot more of the blame than the Poles they employed.

I think it's safe to say the Irish building contractors really let down the Irish workforce over the past few years, they made an absolute fortune throughout the celtic tiger and the most unfortunate part is that when the economy and building industry picks up, Irish people will be so stuck for work that they'll return to work for the very contractors who chose cheap foreign labour over Irish during the good times and couldn't provide a single job during the bad times.

Kintarō Hattori · 02-01-2009 12:16PM

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

And for the love of christ, before the usual crowd leaps on this post with two boots, and I'm looking at you Kintarō Hattori, personally I have no problems with Polish people or EE people generally.

Don't worry. I can't be bothered. You've shown yourself time and again to be extremely bigoted and anti-immigrant so there really is no point.

Rb · 02-01-2009 12:16PM

<3BeingIN6th wrote: »

From that blog:

It's actually quite interesting to read things from the Polish people's perspective.

This part actually confirmed a lot I've been saying about integration over the past few years

Still the main problem of Polish community is the fact of closing itself in kind of national ghetto, and the lack of knowledge of English practically makes it impossible for many Poles to communicate with Irish.
also the attitude of many of my compatriots to Ireland and Irish, who are not interested in Ireland at all, who are actually and mentally still live in Poland, and who are only working in Ireland, regarding Ireland only as a place of work (since at home they are in Poland), doesn’t help neither.

Solair · 02-01-2009 12:17PM

Well it's no surprise that building contractors and property developers let the side down in so many ways. They also basically screwed the entire country over and then their private bank had to be bailed out...

byronic · 02-01-2009 12:17PM

I never really saw Polish here under cutting Irish workers, but I heard a lot of them complaining that they had often to work harder and longer for less money than their Irish colleagues doing the same job. Again, I think the fault lies with Irish employers who were keen to exploit the Polish.

Rb · 02-01-2009 12:20PM

byronic wrote: »

I never really saw Polish here under cutting Irish workers, but I heard a lot of them complaining that they had often to work harder and longer for less money than their Irish colleagues doing the same job. Again, I think the fault lies with Irish employers who were keen to exploit the Polish.

A lot of Irish employers will attempt to exploit any of their employees if given the chance, and we're going to see a lot more of it now and in the coming months/years due to it currently being a "buyers market".

getz · 02-01-2009 12:20PM

Solair wrote: »

I've never come across any in modern times either, but there's plenty of evidence to indicate that there was plenty of it about during that period. Perhaps you were just lucky with your particular experience. Your Manchester accent may also have helped!

i apologize i am wrong there was racistism in the uk, wimpys would only employ irish on the building sites

Solair · 02-01-2009 12:22PM

byronic wrote: »

I never really saw Polish here under cutting Irish workers, but I heard a lot of them complaining that they had often to work harder and longer for less money than their Irish colleagues doing the same job. Again, I think the fault lies with Irish employers who were keen to exploit the Polish.

During the boom, you didn't HAVE to do anything. Jobs were quite easy to come by. If you were treated badly, and were an Irish or EU citizen you could walk out and into another job very quickly indeed. Many companies lost huge numbers of employees and had huge churn because they were not pleasant to work with. E.g. quite a lot of call centres had almost zero staff retention during the boom.

So, I really don't see how you could be trapped in a low paid job. It's quite possible to be now during a recession, but a year + ago, it certainly was not a consideration for most people.

Exploitation of those on work permits / those here working illegally was much more rife though and it wasn't (and isn't) just non-English speakers. I know quite a few well-educated, but jobless South Africans who had terrible conditions of employment.

brianthebard · 02-01-2009 12:25PM

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Actually I know a shedload of Filipinos, and they rarely have much bad to say about their workplaces. Thats not to say there aren't horror stories, but most are doing okay.

Jesus if I was being kept in a shed with a load of other people I'd be complaining...

Solair · 02-01-2009 12:28PM

I still think this 'story' may be a load of hot air to highlight a point about worker discrimination.

I would like to see some hard evidence of those signs in Poland, or at least a first hand account from an Irish builder who has decided to move there.

Rb · 02-01-2009 12:30PM

It'd actually be quite amusing if they were putting up the signs and no Irish were emigrating there in the first place.

byronic · 02-01-2009 12:31PM

Solair wrote: »

During the boom, you didn't HAVE to do anything. Jobs were quite easy to come by. If you were treated badly, and were an Irish or EU citizen you could walk out and into another job very quickly indeed. Many companies lost huge numbers of employees and had huge churn because they were not pleasant to work with. E.g. quite a lot of call centres had almost zero staff retention during the boom.

So, I really don't see how you could be trapped in a low paid job. It's quite possible to be now during a recession, but a year + ago, it certainly was not a consideration for most people.

Exploitation of those on work permits / those here working illegally was much more rife though.

Yes, I saw plenty of that also. But the point I was trying to make is that I did not see any Polish workers actively try to work for less- in fact they quickly complained if they thought they were being short changed. But it's not so easy to change jobs at will, if one is in a foreign country, with few contacts and speaking little English. And that makes it easier for an employer to exploit someone, not necessarily pay them less per hour or per day, but perhaps make them work longer (for no extra pay), or give them the dirty jobs that we won't do.

Terry · 02-01-2009 12:43PM

Solair wrote: »

I've never come across any in modern times either, but there's plenty of evidence to indicate that there was plenty of it about during that period. Perhaps you were just lucky with your particular experience. Your Manchester accent may also have helped!

Anyone I know who went to England in the 80's has nothing but good things to say about the place. Even with the IRA blowing the place to bits.

The thing is, they integrated well. They went for a few pints with their workmates and so forth.
From what I've been told about the current situation is that the English are not too fond of the Poles and miss the days when the sites were "filled with Paddies".

Rb covered the integration thing better a few posts back.

Rb wrote: »

I absolutely agree with the emboldened statement, however I think that the employers themselves bear a lot more of the blame than the Poles they employed.

I think it's safe to say the Irish building contractors really let down the Irish workforce over the past few years, they made an absolute fortune throughout the celtic tiger and the most unfortunate part is that when the economy and building industry picks up, Irish people will be so stuck for work that they'll return to work for the very contractors who chose cheap foreign labour over Irish during the good times and couldn't provide a single job during the bad times.

I don't disagree with you about Irish builders. One ripped me off last month.

It tends to be the smaller contractors though, rather than the likes of Laing, McInerny and Hegarty.

I gave up site work a few years ago due to small builders being complete pricks.

On the other hand, if the Poles are going onto those jobs and agreeing to work for six or seven Euro and hour, they only have themselves to blame.

SimpleSam06 · 02-01-2009 12:48PM

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

Don't worry. I can't be bothered. You've shown yourself time and again to be extremely bigoted and anti-immigrant so there really is no point.

Humorous comment, in a thread about "No Irish" signs in Poland...

Kintarō Hattori · 02-01-2009 12:49PM

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Humorous comment, in a thread about "No Irish" signs in Poland...

Pictures or GTFO.

thebman · 02-01-2009 12:59PM

Rb wrote: »

A lot of Irish employers will attempt to exploit any of their employees if given the chance, and we're going to see a lot more of it now and in the coming months/years due to it currently being a "buyers market".

True, already trying it where I work. All of a sudden telling people that their jobs are on the line if we don't work overtime with no extra pay. Its having zero affect on the IT department though

Some of the other departments seem to actually believe that tripe.

byronic wrote: »

Yes, I saw plenty of that also. But the point I was trying to make is that I did not see any Polish workers actively try to work for less- in fact they quickly complained if they thought they were being short changed. But it's not so easy to change jobs at will, if one is in a foreign country, with few contacts and speaking little English. And that makes it easier for an employer to exploit someone, not necessarily pay them less per hour or per day, but perhaps make them work longer (for no extra pay), or give them the dirty jobs that we won't do.

True but employers do this with all the lower paid or new workers who always get the crap work nobody else wants to do especially starting off.

Happened to me in my job and I got told to pass it off to the new guy when he started. Its been like that in every job I worked.

I doubt many went out of their way to treat the Polish worse as most people couldn't be arsed going out of their way like that. I'm guessing a lot of it is just peoples impressions.

sillymoo · 02-01-2009 01:03PM

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

Pictures or GTFO.

Out of curiosity what do you think of all this? Could you get us a picture :rolleyes:

Kintarō Hattori · 02-01-2009 01:11PM

sillymoo wrote: »

Out of curiosity what do you think of all this? Could you get us a picture :rolleyes:

Well to be honest I haven't thought much about it. My noisey neighbours kept us awake til 4:30am, I'm sitting in work knackered, tired and with a sore throat. I'll comment when I feel better. What's with the :rolleyes: eh? It's very easy to claim/suggest anything without any shred of proof....... so where's the picture of the sign?

Dudess · 02-01-2009 01:21PM

Yeah, what IS the rolleyes about?

If this is true though, it's appalling. But I wonder whether it is, or whether it's just one sign...

FloorBoard wrote: »

That is how things should work, the average irishman has had his head so fried by political correctness he does not know what he is at.

Could you elaborate?

FloorBoard wrote: »

At all times I am ashamed to be Irish, I never seen a people so turned by the lure of a few pound. Disgusting.

FFS. Ashamed to be Irish because some other Irish people are greedy? Yeah, you should really feel responsible for their behaviour... simply because you share their nationality. LOL

seanybiker wrote: »

They are right to though. We treat them like crap so why not

"We" do? I don't recall ever treating a Polish person like crap. And no, they're not right to discriminate against all Irish who apply simply because they share their nationality with unscrupulous employers. Jebus, this nonsense of "some people of a certain nationality are assholes, therefore all people of that nationality should be punished" is a bit frightening really.

braf89 wrote: »

there would be no problem with irish people in ireland getting jobs during this recession if them polish would go home and take their own jobs.

Well they're leaving now - as you point out next...

just dont like them using our country and then the minute the recession hits they leave us out to dry like that.

Why not? They came to a country that was doing really well financially because they wanted a slice of the pie - and also, they were actually needed to work. Then the economic situation went down the toilet so they're packing up. Perfectly logical. Why exactly should they stick around? What could they actually do? And maybe they aren't sticking around because... oh yeah because they don't have jobs anymore.

i never liked the polish people i have ever met in the first place, the lithuanians and latvians etc are a much nicer race.

LOL
It's like this: you get assholes, you get nice people - whatever their race/nationality/ethnicity...

getz wrote: »

what a load of crap i lived in london in 1960s-1970s i never met any anti irishness

Probably because you're not Irish (at least Irish born/raised)?
How is it a load of rubbish anyway just because you alone didn't witness anti Irishness? Are those "No blacks, no dogs, no Irish" signs a myth?

Ordinary man wrote: »

I worked with a lot of nationalities in the building trade over the last few years and we all had to put up with a lot of ****ty conditions on site and hectic deadlines. The one thing i noiced was the polish were the first to complain about their rights. They were all union workers and constantly on about what they deserved.

Not all irish workers were getting the full entitlements but most just put up and shut up. I found lithuanians and latvians were a more flexible and likeable kind of workmate to work with.

Why shouldn't the Polish workers insist their worker entitlements are met? I find it a bit disconcerting that it's considered more desirable for people to "put up and shut up".

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

To be honest I can't say I'm terribly surprised at this news. They come here to "earn and learn", a direct quote from a Polish poster recently, and they have no intention of giving anything back. That makes them rather unwelcome guests to the party, in my opinion

What's wrong with them doing that though? And what should they give back? I think it was pretty clear they were, in general, only coming here to take advantage of all the wealth (and why not? Plenty of us Irish would do the very same - I know I would) but there are some who have chosen to make a life here.

SimpleSam06 · 02-01-2009 01:23PM

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

Pictures or GTFO.

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

Well to be honest I haven't thought much about it. My noisey neighbours kept us awake til 4:30am, I'm sitting in work knackered, tired and with a sore throat. I'll comment when I feel better. What's with the :rolleyes: eh? It's very easy to claim/suggest anything without any shred of proof....... so where's the picture of the sign?

Why are you asking me for pictures, I didn't start the thread. The link is in the first post, linking to the Irish Independent. Talk to Michael Kilcoyne, president of the Consumers Association of Ireland. Talk to the editor of the paper directly right here: independent.letters@independent.ie.

Poland - 'No Irish need apply'

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