Is religion obsolete?

Zombrex · 27-12-2008 02:32AM

Cantab. wrote: »

There's an infinitely deeper love, an infinitely deeper meaning -- the celebration of the birth of Jesus, the saviour of all of mankind.

Meh, one can say that about anything. As someone else asked, how would you know? All you have to compare your current "infinitely deeper love" (must resist Bee Gees joke) is your own emotional experience. For all you know what you are experiencing now could be the emotional equivalent of watching Star Wars for the first time from 5 miles away through an out of focus telescope with no sound. Infinitely better than not watching Star Wars at all, but still a far worse experience than seeing it in a proper cinema.

Perhaps a Muslim experiences a far greater love for Mohammad? Or an atheist for a taco, again how would you know?

This is the fallacy of taking your own experiences as being hugely significant at demonstrating something external to you

Zombrex · 27-12-2008 02:35AM

jill_valentine wrote: »

Hmm. Don't want to leap headfirst into this argument again, but this caught my eye because it comes up a lot.

This:

People keep saying it in these conversations, and it always makes me wince, because it's one of the saddest things I've ever heard. I don't mean that in a patronising "I'm sad you can't see THE LIGHT!" kind of way - it just speaks to me of a really profound despair in all other things, that somebody would say that about anything.

It is often pointed out on this forum, by Christians themselves as much as anyone else, that profoundly unhappy people are drawn the Christianity. Most of the regular posters here have tales of how they were very unhappy with themselves and their lives before Christianity gave them some direction and purpose in their lives.

Great for them I guess, but it would be foolish to believe that everyone is as miserable as they were without Christianity.

CDfm · 27-12-2008 03:02AM

jill_valentine wrote: »

Hmm. Don't want to leap headfirst into this argument again, but this caught my eye because it comes up a lot.

This:

People keep saying it in these conversations, and it always makes me wince, because it's one of the saddest things I've ever heard. I don't mean that in a patronising "I'm sad you can't see THE LIGHT!" kind of way - it just speaks to me of a really profound despair in all other things, that somebody would say that about anything.

But as God exists there is no problem with that -unless you get some uncaring atheist unfairly picking on someone.

Whats wrong if someone finds reason and gets assistance and hope from their religion.

Zombrex · 27-12-2008 01:33PM

CDfm wrote: »

Whats wrong if someone finds reason and gets assistance and hope from their religion.

it doesn't really address why they were profoundly unhappy in the first place.

i've know a few very unhappy people in my time (dated a few) and in my experience they tend to be looking around for something external to "fix" them. This can be a relationship, a new job, getting their friends to be nicer to them, a religion etc etc. It is always along the line of the world owes me happiness. IF the world will only give them X Y Z then they will be happy.

I've never seen any of these things actually bring contentment and happiness, despite claims to the contrary (I once had a girlfriend say "But you make me so happy" after I broke up with her, which was a bit odd considering she had spent the last 3 months being in a constant state of cross annoyance with me. I tried explaining to her that the car crash of a relationship we just had isn't how I would define "happy").

ultimately without dealing with the actual issues people have, in a proper fashion (professional counciling for example) these external things are never going to make someone actually happy.

I would include religion in that, heck even if it is true. God may truly love you, but that is the same as a boyfriend or girlfriend truly loving you. In the end if someone is miserable and seeking love external to them to fix them, be it a boyfriend, a wife, or a supernatural deity, ultimately it isn't going to make them happy.

(and before anyone says it, yes generalizations and all that, I don't need a ton of replies going "well it made me happy, look I'm really happy. happy happy happy"

xxmarymoxx · 27-12-2008 01:38PM

how can you prove god exists you cant all you have is a book called a bible that has been rewriiten so many times its a joke no one on this earth can prove there is a god its all in the mind if you believe it then yes its like your afraid not to you have some man callled a pope telling you there is a god and if you dont believe you wil rot in hell once your dead your dead thats it every one has to die sometime god or no god people worship a statue made of stone

Fanny Cradock · 27-12-2008 01:54PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Great for them I guess, but it would be foolish to believe that everyone is as miserable as they were without Christianity.

Yes, while faith has made me a happier and more rounded person, I really don't believe that it is true or wise to argue that somebody without faith in God is a forlorn and miserable old sod. Of course, I believe that a person will become happier with a true faith and relationship in Jesus, but that's not to say that they aren't already.

Fanny Cradock · 27-12-2008 02:09PM

xxmarymoxx wrote: »

how can you prove god exists you cant all you have is a book called a bible that has been rewriiten so many times its a joke no one on this earth can prove there is a god its all in the mind if you believe it then yes its like your afraid not to you have some man callled a pope telling you there is a god and if you dont believe you wil rot in hell once your dead your dead thats it every one has to die sometime god or no god people worship a statue made of stone

You can't prove that God exists. Then again you can't prove He doesn't. Or can you? Stepping outside the realm of mathematical certainty, I believe there is nothing that one can truly prove - we simply operate on a sliding scale of certainty bolstered by evidence.

Not all Christians are Catholics. Christians in this country are often somehow 'guilty' by a perceived association with an organisation they don't belong to. A fair proportion of the Christians who post here are not Catholics, but this simple fact seems to escape many. Unfortunately it's a myopic view of Christianity that we often see on this forum.

If you are claiming that the bible has not been faithfully reproduced, and instead altered, then I would like to see evidence to this end.

xxmarymoxx · 27-12-2008 02:14PM

i have no evidience as does no one god is a figment of ones imagination simple people preach people choose to listen and then make up there own minds if it makes a person happy to believe in god and pray thats their choice

homer911 · 27-12-2008 02:22PM

xxmarymoxx wrote: »

all you have is a book called a bible that has been rewriiten so many times its a joke

Not this old potato again! Do some research! Modern translations have always gone back to the oldest available manuscripts. Show me something in a modern translation (paraphrased editions excluded) that biblical scholars are convinced was translated incorrectly!!

CDfm · 27-12-2008 02:32PM

Wicknight wrote: »

it doesn't really address why they were profoundly unhappy in the first place.

i've know a few very unhappy people in my time (dated a few) and in my experience they tend to be looking around for something external to "fix" them.

I've never seen any of these things actually bring contentment and happiness, despite claims to the contrary.

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Wicknight - I see where you are coming from.A belief in God isnt a cure all if you still choose to do all the stuff that makes you and people around you miserable in the first place.

I disagree with you- if people accept life on its own terms they can at least have an honestly on their relationship with God.

Thats not to say that some people dont need professional help -and if they do -they should get it.

CDfm · 27-12-2008 02:35PM

xxmarymoxx wrote: »

i have no evidience as does no one god is a figment of ones imagination simple people preach people choose to listen and then make up there own minds if it makes a person happy to believe in god and pray thats their choice

Did you get a Dawkins book for Christmas by any chance. There is an alternative called the Dawkins Delusion -which by all accounts is much better.

Check out this imparial link on Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dawkins_Delusion%3F

MatthewVII · 27-12-2008 03:11PM

CDfm wrote: »

I disagree with you- if people accept life on its own terms they can at least have an honestly on their relationship with God.

What exactly does it mean to accept life on its own terms in a practical sense?

I completely agree with Wicknight though, religion tends to inspire a passive attitude to one's problems. Those who say "throw yourself to the mercy of god and repent" as an answer to whatever is wrong (as I have met on a number of occasions, not painting anyone with the stereotype brush, but some of the christians i know tell me this) are just plain foolish.

The concept that a higher power is in control of our destinies can definitely be damaging if it changes the degree to which you engage with difficulties

dlofnep · 27-12-2008 03:34PM

Húrin wrote: »

Science deals with physics (the physical, material universe) and religion deals with metaphysics (beyond physics; or, explaining the ultimate nature of being and the world).

Science can explain what needs to be explained. When you say metaphysics, you are really dealing with philosophy.. which is entirely operated by opinion.

Take for example "The meaning of life".

Someone could put it to you that there must be a meaning to life. Without a meaning, life is nonsensical. It would make sense that living a life of purpose demonstrates the possibility of a God.

Someone could return with "Life has no purpose. We live, we die. Sometimes we try to look for more than is really there in an attempt to try and complicate something that is actually pretty simple."

This metaphysics that you refer to is really only required by those who need to explain what sometimes doesn't need an explanation, or is beyond our current understanding of science. In saying that, it doesn't mean that it won't one day be unravalled by science - But just at this moment, it may not or is not.

dlofnep · 27-12-2008 03:37PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You can't prove that God exists. Then again you can't prove He doesn't. Or can you?

We also can't prove or dissprove the existence of the Tooth Fairy, but common sense would lead us to believe that there is no need to have faith in her existence.

We as atheists look at documents like the bible, and the surroundings of that time - we examine the evidence (or lack of) and come to the conclusion that there is no need to have faith in God's existence because the evidence for his existence just isn't there.

If there was some harder evidence, then we could really debate the existence of God. But until then, you'll have to continue to hide behind the good old "But you can't dissaprove it." line..

Abraham · 27-12-2008 03:43PM

Perhaps somebody could explain why God wants all the adoration expected and given.
And those who don't give it, are shortlisted for punishment ?

If he gets all the adoration then he will treat us all with respect and if not then beware the wrath of God ?

Why ? What's that all about ?

MatthewVII · 27-12-2008 03:47PM

Abraham wrote: »

Perhaps somebody could explain why God wants all the adoration expected and given.
And those who don't give it, are shortlisted for punishment ?

If he gets all the adoration then he will treat us all with respect and if not then beware the wrath of God ?

Why ? What's that all about ?

It's sort of like him being your manager at work who'll only give you a promotion if you butter him up.

CDfm · 27-12-2008 03:59PM

MatthewVII wrote: »

What exactly does it mean to accept life on its own terms in a practical sense?

I completely agree with Wicknight though, religion tends to inspire a passive attitude to one's problems. Those who say "throw yourself to the mercy of god and repent" as an answer to whatever is wrong (as I have met on a number of occasions, not painting anyone with the stereotype brush, but some of the christians i know tell me this) are just plain foolish.

The concept that a higher power is in control of our destinies can definitely be damaging if it changes the degree to which you engage with difficulties

Matthew - whatever your belief you have to accept life as it is. The same for Christians. I agree with a lot that Wicknight has said and a sincere belief in God can have a positive affect on a lot of people. It does involve a bit of lifestyle changes which in themselves can be healthy if a person has issues. However, if a person has a mental health issue -it would be foolish not to attend their doctor or councillor.

Christianity doesnt encourage avoiding problems.

MatthewVII · 27-12-2008 04:01PM

CDfm wrote: »

Matthew - whatever your belief you have to accept life as it is. The same for Christians. I agree with a lot that Wicknight has said and a sincere belief in God can have a positive affect on a lot of people. It does involve a bit of lifestyle changes which in themselves can be healthy if a person has issues. However, if a person has a mental health issue -it would be foolish not to attend their doctor or councillor.

What I said had nothing to do with that part of your argument. I of course believe that people need to see someone if they need professional help. That was never in question

CDfm · 27-12-2008 04:04PM

MatthewVII wrote: »

What I said had nothing to do with that part of your argument. I of course believe that people need to see someone if they need professional help. That was never in question

explain it to me in different terms then?

MatthewVII · 27-12-2008 04:10PM

Let me run down what happened:

You made a statement about accepting life on its own terms? and something about god an honesty, as well as a footnote about those needing help going to seek it from a professional

I asked you what you meant about accepting life on its own terms, god and honesty

You challenged me that those who need help should seek it, which isn't what i was contesting

I replied to that effect

You now challenge me to explain what I'm saying in different terms.

At this point, I'm completely lost

Fanny Cradock · 27-12-2008 04:11PM

MatthewVII wrote: »

It's sort of like him being your manager at work who'll only give you a promotion if you butter him up.

No it's not.

Abraham, I assume you are looking for a Christian response? Well, praise of God is seen as a natural consequence of his perfection. That perfection, in turn, has no tolerance for imperfection. If you mix black and white you are left with neither colour.

Although a poor analogy, a relationship with God can be compared to being in love with another person. If, for instance, you started going out with someone, you wouldn't find it odd to think often about them and want to be close to them. Generosity and a type of sacrifice are natural consequence of being in love. However, neither are considered to be something lost on your part, they are things you freely give and benefit from. Christians don't believe that God is on some massive ego trip, nor do we believe that people are separated from him (damnation) for not spending every waking hour worshipping him. Such a line of thought is to misunderstand the core principals of Christian belief.

Húrin · 27-12-2008 06:18PM

MatthewVII wrote: »

Purposely avoiding hard questions? I stated earlier I am an atheist. That means i have already gone through the hard questions and come to conclusions that I am just a body, born through an inbuilt need for the human race to reproduce, that I will live out my lifespan and die, rotting in the ground or wherever they put me. I believe life has no more meaning than the progression of the species to an end which is ultimately without purpose and that no external force has any power over me greater than the hold of physics and random chance.

How fashionable of you. :rolleyes:

jill_valentine wrote: »

People keep saying it in these conversations, and it always makes me wince, because it's one of the saddest things I've ever heard. I don't mean that in a patronising "I'm sad you can't see THE LIGHT!" kind of way - it just speaks to me of a really profound despair in all other things, that somebody would say that about anything.

If there is no God, the meaning and purpose in life is negated by death, is it not?

Wicknight wrote: »

I've never seen any of these things actually bring contentment and happiness, despite claims to the contrary

Well I have seen Christianity make people happy. Your claim to the contrary has no more credibility than my claim.

ultimately without dealing with the actual issues people have, in a proper fashion (professional counciling for example) these external things are never going to make someone actually happy.

Aah, science to the rescue again.

To say that embracing Christ as a solution to unhappiness is to ignore the cause of the unhappiness is a false dichotomy. Christianity is not just a narrative of the universe that we accept intellectually. We feel that Jesus Christ is actively helping us to become more content and better than we were before. He helps address the underlying issues.

homer911 wrote: »

Not this old potato again! Do some research! Modern translations have always gone back to the oldest available manuscripts. Show me something in a modern translation (paraphrased editions excluded) that biblical scholars are convinced was translated incorrectly!!

Don't feed the trolls!

dlofnep wrote: »

Science can explain what needs to be explained. When you say metaphysics, you are really dealing with philosophy.. which is entirely operated by opinion.

...

This metaphysics that you refer to is really only required by those who need to explain what sometimes doesn't need an explanation, or is beyond our current understanding of science. In saying that, it doesn't mean that it won't one day be unravalled by science - But just at this moment, it may not or is not.

I think you're right here, except in the last sentence.

Metaphysics does indeed require a different method of study than physics, and depends on perception and opinion which are subjective.

But most humans, it appears are people who want to ask these questions (since materialist atheists are a minority). So it is necessary and legitimate to explore the possible answers to these questions.

Science cannot answer metaphysical questions. It doesn't have the tools.

dlofnep wrote: »

We also can't prove or dissprove the existence of the Tooth Fairy, but common sense would lead us to believe that there is no need to have faith in her existence.

Does the Tooth Fairy claim to be the creator of the universe? Is there documentation of the tooth fairy being incarnated as a human on earth? Has belief in the Tooth Fairy been observed to change any adult's life for the better?

The existence of a universe with laws of physics (which must be obeyed) and laws of morality (compliance optional) implies to me that there is more likely than not to be a creator.

Cantab. · 27-12-2008 07:25PM

And so the atheist-fest continues...

Fanny Cradock · 27-12-2008 07:41PM

No more of your tiresome accusations, cantab. Do you understand?

If you don't like it here, don't post.

Zombrex · 27-12-2008 07:46PM

CDfm wrote: »

Wicknight - I see where you are coming from.A belief in God isnt a cure all if you still choose to do all the stuff that makes you and people around you miserable in the first place.

But you see that is the point. Ultimately the things you do or don't do don't decide if you are happy or not.

You can stop doing the things that upset you, but that isn't the same as being happy. You still have all the emotional and mental baggage that was drawing you to those things in the first place.

If a drug user stops using drugs, that will certain increase their quality of life. But it doesn't tackle the issue of why they were using drugs in the first place.

If a person is miserable and then starts leading a Christian life and finds their life improves that certain is an improvement in their lives. But it doesn't deal with the issue of why they were miserable in the first place. All those reasons are still present.

CDfm wrote: »

I disagree with you- if people accept life on its own terms they can at least have an honestly on their relationship with God.

Again, if someone is ultimately unhappy a relationship with God isn't going to change that, any more than a relationship with the boy they like, or the new job they hope they will get, or the fresh start they keep saying they will make etc etc.

CDfm wrote: »

Thats not to say that some people dont need professional help -and if they do -they should get it.

We all ultimately need professional help. I would recommend anyone and everyone visit a professional councilor in their life time.

Zombrex · 27-12-2008 07:57PM

Húrin wrote: »

Aah, science to the rescue again.

Well yes. You say that as if understanding what something really is is a bad thing. Or should we think those with mental problems are possessed with demons?

Húrin wrote: »

We feel that Jesus Christ is actively helping us to become more content and better than we were before. He helps address the underlying issues.

but it doesn't. Jesus isn't sitting in a chair asking you questions about your parents. Jesus isn't discussing the bullying that took place at school with you. (I could go on but you get the idea)

Any self-help that happens through religious faith is a conversation that one has with their own head, which is ultimately so limited as to be pointless. If it was that simple we would all do it. What people need is an actual real life person discussing stuff with them.

By the way I acknowledge that churches run professional counciling services, that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about people believing that because they have a "relationship with Jesus" they are actually tackling their own mental and emotional issues.

Húrin wrote: »

But most humans, it appears are people who want to ask these questions (since materialist atheists are a minority). So it is necessary and legitimate to explore the possible answers to these questions.

Science cannot answer metaphysical questions. It doesn't have the tools.

Nothing has the tools, which is why we have hundreds of religions in the world today, and hundreds of thousands in history past.

The answers are limited by only the human imagination, and there is no way to tell answers from each other (particularly not the faulty logic deployed below)

Húrin wrote: »

The existence of a universe with laws of physics (which must be obeyed) and laws of morality (compliance optional) implies to me that there is more likely than not to be a creator.

The idea that this universe, with its physics and evolved human morality, requires a creator always causes me to think what exactly do you think a universe without a creator would be like?

PDN · 27-12-2008 08:11PM

Wicknight wrote: »

The idea that this universe, with its physics and evolved human morality, requires a creator always causes me to think what exactly do you think a universe without a creator would be like?

It wouldn't be like anything because it wouldn't be at all.

You might as well ask what a novel without a writer would be like.

DublinWriter · 27-12-2008 08:18PM

PDN wrote: »

It wouldn't be like anything because it wouldn't be at all. You might as well ask what a novel without a writer would be like.

It would be like a blank sheet of paper on which we could invent our own story.

Helix · 27-12-2008 08:18PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Well, praise of God is seen as a natural consequence of his perfection. That perfection, in turn, has no tolerance for imperfection

surely intolerance is an imperfection?

Helix · 27-12-2008 08:20PM

PDN wrote: »

It wouldn't be like anything because it wouldn't be at all.

or it would be exactly what you see around you right now

if the universe needed a creator because it is so complex and intricate, then surely the being who created such a complex and intricate place would himself have needed a creator, and so ad infinitum

Is religion obsolete?

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