Your most Controversial Soccer opinions

eagle eye · 22-12-2008 01:40AM

Zaph wrote: »

Not really that controversial imo. He was just one of a long line of talented, but vastly overhyped by the media, English players that has included the likes of Gazza and Beckham.

What about him was overhyped, that he scored more goals in the premier league by a county mile than anyone else?

Or was it that he scored that amount of goals without playing for one of the big three in the late nineties?

OPENROAD · 22-12-2008 01:41AM

I want International football to be abolished.

ShoulderChip · 22-12-2008 01:42AM

redout wrote: »

Its hardly racist. I am sure if their is a top quality black manager then they are in demand ie: Rijkaard. There is probably a couple more but not that many. How many top quality black managers do you know ? Clubs aint going to hire a black guy just for the sake of it. They want quality and if the majority of them happen to be white then that cant be helped. Also the majority of the UK population is white so what do people expect.

ha you just don't get it,

The argument is that black managers are not given the chance to become top quality managers, as they are not being hired.

It is is as if it is not a possible career route for retiring Black Footballers

What does the fact that the majority of the UK population is white have got to do with anything?

the fact is the number of new managers that are black does not reflect the percentage of Football players which are black.

eZe^ · 22-12-2008 01:42AM

I don't actually know that much about football at all.....

SantryRed · 22-12-2008 01:47AM

I personally can't wait for the day one of the Premiership teams go bust.

LuckyLloyd · 22-12-2008 01:48AM

redout wrote: »

Its hardly racist. I am sure if their is a top quality black manager then they are in demand ie: Rijkaard. There is probably a couple more but not that many. How many top quality black managers do you know ? Clubs aint going to hire a black guy just for the sake of it. They want quality and if the majority of them happen to be white then that cant be helped. Also the majority of the UK population is white so what do people expect.

The number of black managers as a percentage of the total amount of managers working in professional football in England <<<< the number of black players as a percentage of the total amount of players playing in professional football in England. And this is a problem that has been there for decades.

The population breakdown of the UK as a whole is an irrelevance to this point (but that you deem it relevant is part of the problem). When black players occupy key roles on the pitch during their careers and there have been many elite black players in English football over the past twenty years, there is no logical reason for their numbers fall off so drastically in terms of occupancy in managerial and senior coaching roles. What comes first, the chicken or the egg? How can you have many top black coaches when they don't receive the same opportunities that former white players do upon attempting to pursue it as a profession?

Discrimination in the general workplace didn't go away without a proactive effort to curb it and punish those who engaged in it. A similar effort has never been undertaken in most sports and is sorely required now.

redout · 22-12-2008 01:50AM

ShoulderChip wrote: »

ha you just don't get it,

The argument is that black managers are not given the chance to become top quality managers, as they are not being hired.

It is is as if it is not a possible career route for retiring Black Footballers

What does the fact that the majority of the UK population is white have got to do with anything?

the fact is the number of new managers that are black does not reflect the percentage of Football players which are black.

I believe the best man should get the job. Why is it your saying black managers of quality are being discriminated against. Do you have proof of this ? Why is just them and not black players ? There is plenty of top young black players that are regularly snapped up the clubs.

I dont get what your saying. Surely if a guy is good enough and the best candidate then he will get hired for the job regardless of race. The fact the majority of the UK population is white has a huge deal to play with it. Do you think there should be more black managers than white ? Demographics says no my friend, It is the same for every other job in that country. So I dont inderstand your reasoning behind that.

ditpoker · 22-12-2008 01:55AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Football desperately needs to address this problem. In the 16 years of the premiership, there have only been three black men appointed as managers. There is something wrong with that no matter how you look at it.

gotta disagree with the tone of this. I agree with the subject of it, i think minorities should be considered equally etc etc, but..

... how many chinese managers are there? how many chinese players were there?
... in the last 50 years, how many black players have there been? less than white. its only logical that there's only been 3...

there will be more, but at some point there the following statements must be true...
"there has only ever been one black manager..."
"there has only ever been two black managers..."
"there has only ever been three black managers..."
"there has only ever been four black managers..."
"there has only ever been five black managers..."
"there has only ever been six black managers..."

at the moment we are at three... there will be four, and then five... and then six... have to get past 3 to get to 4...

the tone with which you've said it is like me saying

"The USA has only ever had one black president ever... i think this should be addressed immediately..."

____________________________________________________________

as for my own controversial opinions:

1. i think united are the number 1 reason for the bastardisation of modern football, their decision to opt out of the FA cup years ago destroyed the romance of cups. the notion that the fa cup or the league cup are meaningless were never expressed prior to 2000... and any football fan who expresses an opinion along the lines of "X cup is meaningless" is a lesser football fan that i and that ALL their footballing opinions should be taken with a pinch of salt.

2. "irish celtic fans" are... funny...

if i think of more i'll post more

eagle eye · 22-12-2008 01:56AM

redout wrote: »

Its hardly racist. I am sure if their is a top quality black manager then they are in demand ie: Rijkaard. There is probably a couple more but not that many. How many top quality black managers do you know ? Clubs aint going to hire a black guy just for the sake of it. They want quality and if the majority of them happen to be white then that cant be helped. Also the majority of the UK population is white so what do people expect.

Its not all that surprising that you have not seen a successful black manager in the Premier league. Considering that only 5% of the British population is black and that most of them reside in England and less than 50% of the club managers in said league are English. So you should only see one black manager for every 20 English managers that are hired in the league and to find a successful one would be hard given that over the last couple of years no Englishman has managed to guide a club into the Champions League which I presume is the minimum required to be considered successful.

LuckyLloyd · 22-12-2008 01:58AM

redout wrote: »

I believe the best man should get the job. Why is it your saying black managers of quality are being discriminated against. Do you have proof of this ? Why is just them and not black players ? There is plenty of top young black players that are regularly snapped up the clubs.

I dont get what your saying. Surely if a guy is good enough and the best candidate then he will get hired for the job regardless of race. The fact the majority of the UK population is white has a huge deal to play with it. Do you think there should be more black managers than white ? Demographics says no my friend, It is the same for every other job in that country. So I dont inderstand your reasoning behind that.

This is really why I don't bother bringing up the subject. Your average football fan fails at at basic logic.

The demographics of the professional football industry contrasts sharply with the demographics of the country as a whole. Simply put, the ratio of white : black in terms of professional football players is much closer than the ratio of white : black in terms of citizens of the UK. And then again, the ratio of white : black in terms of professional football managers falls more heavily towards the former than the ratio of white : black in terms of citizens of the UK.

That being the case is a deeper issue than football is willing to face up to and admit. And it most definitely goes beyond a simple view of "best man gets the job - black managers obviously aren't the best men for the jobs".

HalloweenJack · 22-12-2008 01:58AM

Boggles wrote: »

:eek:

It was a transitional period, it was his first job, the FAI jabbered on about a "four-year plan", the players weren't that good, Irish expectations are ridiculous (these have continued under Trap), he was made a scapegoat for the FAI.

I could go on and on why I feel he should have been given more time.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 22-12-2008 01:58AM

Celtic are a pain in the ****ing arse.

shane86 · 22-12-2008 01:59AM

Regarding foreign club football, with such thrilling encounters as Man U vs Derby or Liverpool vs Sunderland of old, as being more important than international groups with one dud team, one poor one and four of variable quality contenders, with so much riding on each match, is having a laugh tbh. Not to mention the potential for upsets in international tournaments, compared to the near certainty that a big 4 will win the EPL.

On a similiar note, anyone who thinks the EPL is more thrilling than the CL needs their head checked.

Do you think there should be more black managers than white ? Demographics says no my friend, It is the same for every other job in that country. So I dont inderstand your reasoning behind that

re the % of black footballers vs % of managers, alot of you seem to forget many of the most successful managers had short lived, not particularly great playing careers. As Stan, Ince and arguably Keane taught us, good players dont always make for great managers. And as said, how many non English managers does the PL have? Benitez, Fergie, Sbragia, Kinnear (born here

), Moyes, Hughes, Scolari, Wenger, O`Neill, maybe another one or two I overlooked. Combine with that a large amount of the EPL black players are African or French, not English, and it starts to dilute the stats a bit.

redout · 22-12-2008 02:03AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This is really why I don't bother bringing up the subject. Your average football fan fails at at basic logic.

The demographics of the professional football industry contrasts sharply with the demographics of the country as a whole. Simply put, the ratio of white : black in terms of professional football players is much closer than the ratio of white : black in terms of citizens of the UK. And then again, the ratio of white : black in terms of professional football managers falls more heavily towards the former than the ratio of white : black in terms of citizens of the UK.

That being the case is a deeper issue than football is willing to face up to and admit. And it most definitely goes beyond a simple view of "best man gets the job - black managers obviously aren't the best men for the jobs".

Bollox brother. Show me the proof, actual proof and not theres only been 3. Then I might take what you have to say seriously. How many top class black managers can you name for me in Spain, Italy, Germany ? I cant think of many. So you reckon there is a europe wide conspiracy not to hire black managers ? Can you name me some succesful black managers bar Rijkaard ?

ditpoker · 22-12-2008 02:05AM

ShoulderChip wrote: »

What does the fact that the majority of the UK population is white have got to do with anything?

the fact is the number of new managers that are black does not reflect the percentage of Football players which are black.

why arent there more black ceo's?
why arent there more black chairmen?
why arent there more black tennis players?
why arent there more black formula one champions?

if you ignore a general census stat such as population composition as at least a factor, you are very misguided. you cant dismiss population compostion as an issue... if you can...

HOW DARE TRINIDAD AND TABAGO ONLY BRING ONE WHITE PLAYER TO THE LAST WORLD CUP!!!! RACISTS THE LOT OF THEM!!!

eagle eye · 22-12-2008 02:06AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This is really why I don't bother bringing up the subject. Your average football fan fails at at basic logic.

The demographics of the professional football industry contrasts sharply with the demographics of the country as a whole. Simply put, the ratio of white : black in terms of professional football players is much closer than the ratio of white : black in terms of citizens of the UK. And then again, the ratio of white : black in terms of professional football managers falls more heavily towards the former than the ratio of white : black in terms of citizens of the UK.

That being the case is a deeper issue than football is willing to face up to and admit. And it most definitely goes beyond a simple view of "best man gets the job - black managers obviously aren't the best men for the jobs".

Where are you getting those stats from Lloyd?

ShoulderChip · 22-12-2008 02:06AM

redout wrote: »

Its hardly racist. I am sure if their is a top quality black manager then they are in demand ie: Rijkaard. There is probably a couple more but not that many. How many top quality black managers do you know ? Clubs aint going to hire a black guy just for the sake of it. They want quality and if the majority of them happen to be white then that cant be helped. Also the majority of the UK population is white so what do people expect.

redout wrote: »

I believe the best man should get the job. Why is it your saying black managers of quality are being discriminated against. Do you have proof of this ? Why is just them and not black players ? There is plenty of top young black players that are regularly snapped up the clubs.

I dont get what your saying. Surely if a guy is good enough and the best candidate then he will get hired for the job regardless of race. The fact the majority of the UK population is white has a huge deal to play with it. Do you think there should be more black managers than white ? Demographics says no my friend, It is the same for every other job in that country. So I dont inderstand your reasoning behind that.

Firstly Quality was your word.

I also believe the best man should get the job, but as I don't believe there to be a reason for black managers to be worse managers than white managers, I believe that the best men are not getting the jobs.

I don't have proof of this, I am just saying that it is statistically significant and as such if my assumption that they have equal potential to be good managers then they are being discriminated against.

I don't understand what you are trying to say in the last two lines of that paragraph.

I clearly don't think there should be as much black managers as white.
just the same relative proportion.

eagle eye wrote: »

Its not all that surprising that you have not seen a successful black manager in the Premier league. Considering that only 5% of the British population is black and that most of them reside in England and less than 50% of the club managers in said league are English. So you should only see one black manager for every 20 English managers that are hired in the league and to find a successful one would be hard given that over the last couple of years no Englishman has managed to guide a club into the Champions League which I presume is the minimum required to be considered successful.

You make a good point if and only if you include the word british in your first sentence before the word black.

I don't see the need to make your argument in terms of british managers however.

LuckyLloyd · 22-12-2008 02:11AM

ditpoker wrote: »

gotta disagree with the tone of this. I agree with the subject of it, i think minorities should be considered equally etc etc, but..

... how many chinese managers are there? how many chinese players were there?
... in the last 50 years, how many black players have there been? less than white. its only logical that there's only been 3...

there will be more, but at some point there the following statements must be true...
"there has only ever been one black manager..."
"there has only ever been two black managers..."
"there has only ever been three black managers..."
"there has only ever been four black managers..."
"there has only ever been five black managers..."
"there has only ever been six black managers..."

at the moment we are at three... there will be four, and then five... and then six... have to get past 3 to get to 4...

the tone with which you've said it is like me saying

"The USA has only ever had one black president ever... i think this should be addressed immediately..."

lol, you are so stupid sometimes.

Think about why it is was so significant that Obama won the election. Now think about why it would have been 100% impossible for it to happen 40 years ago. The type of argument you are making now is eerily similar to the type of arguments that underpinned Jim Crow in the American South up until the Civil Rights Act got motoring in the sixties. "Our gang is bigger than your gang".

The problem with racial discrimination in the US in decades past; or sectarian discrimination and gerrymandering in the North up until the early seventies was that the percentage of representatives minorities had in political office or positions of influence was negatively disproportionate to the percentage they formed of the overall population. That didn't change until something was done about it.

The point is not that there are less black managers - logically there should be less. It's that there are much less of them then there should be when you consider the percentage they make up of the playing base as a whole.

Over the past two or three decades, other minorties have amounted to an infestimal percentage of the entire playing base - so it follows that it is less of an issue (and less surprising) that we don't have any Asian coaches in English professional football.

ShoulderChip · 22-12-2008 02:12AM

ditpoker wrote: »

why arent there more black ceo's?
why arent there more black chairmen?
why arent there more black tennis players?
why arent there more black formula one champions?

if you ignore a general census stat such as population composition as at least a factor, you are very misguided. you cant dismiss population compostion as an issue... if you can...

HOW DARE TRINIDAD AND TABAGO ONLY BRING ONE WHITE PLAYER TO THE LAST WORLD CUP!!!! RACISTS THE LOT OF THEM!!!

is it not more relevant to take the demographics of the sample size in question rather than the population as a whole?

for example with your trinidad analogy
I would not consider the percentage of people in trinidad that are black

I would consider the percentage of male footballers aged 15-45 that are black, and entitled to play for the national team.

this is what I have done,
I assume you just pulled one sentence out of one of my posts and did not actualy understand what i was trying to say but preferred to make some sensationalist tabloid style post.

LuckyLloyd · 22-12-2008 02:14AM

redout wrote: »

Bollox brother. Show me the proof, actual proof and not theres only been 3. Then I might take what you have to say seriously. How many top class black managers can you name for me in Spain, Italy, Germany ? I cant think of many. So you reckon there is a europe wide conspiracy not to hire black managers ? Can you name me some succesful black managers bar Rijkaard ?

Three black premiership managers:

Ruud Gullit
Jean Tigana
Paul Ince

Now think of all the premiership managerial appointments made over 16 years and the percentage of total hires that amounts to. Now think about the percentage of premiership appearances in 16 years that have been made by black players.

And tell me there isn't an illogical disparity there.

eagle eye · 22-12-2008 02:21AM

ShoulderChip wrote: »

.
You make a good point if and only if you include the word british in your first sentence before the word black.

I don't see the need to make your argument in terms of british managers however.

Not British but English. The huge majority of the British black population reside in England. So English black is what I would be saying.

And not British managers, but English Managers. My point being that there are currently only 9 in the Premier League and when you look at the age profile of those managers, well you have to remember that the game was predominantly white english when the average aged English manager was plying his trade. I don't know the exact average age of English managers in the Premier League but I'd imagine its close to 50 when you consider that Redknapp is 61 and Big Sam is 54.

ditpoker · 22-12-2008 02:25AM

... sigh...

ok, can yourself and lloyd please relalize that managers of today predominantly were either not successful mainstream footballers or were at their peak in the early 90's or late 80's or before that. The demographic of footballers was very much very much more white than black (i dont have figures not do i pretent to, you seem to make it out that you know thats its 50/50 now or something and therefore there should be 50/50 black/white managers).

equally, cultural demographics suggest that black males live in less well off areas (again, this is an educated guess, if you wanna do a census check, be my guess), as such, the playing population of black footballers, in my opinion, as a general guess are less educated and less career driven that some white footballers. Alot of footballers (black and white) get thrown into youth acadamees in their teens and dont get a full education, and plan to be a "pro footballer" and retire in their thirties. My guess, and if im wrong im wrong, but my guess is that the majority of modern managers are well educated or come from educated backgrounds and are likely to be more career minded, be likely to be more willing to do coaching badges, training, etc, and as such, i would suggest that of the white/black players from the mid 80's to modern day, that the ratio of career minded white players with a drive to further their career and pursue management : career minded black players with a drive to further their career and pursue management is about equal to there only being 3 black managers thus far.

ShoulderChip · 22-12-2008 02:25AM

eagle eye wrote: »

Not British but English. The huge majority of the British black population reside in England. So English black is what I would be saying.

And not British managers, but English Managers. My point being that there are currently only 9 in the Premier League and when you look at the age profile of those managers, well you have to remember that the game was predominantly white english when the average aged English manager was plying his trade. I don't know the exact average age of English managers in the Premier League but I'd imagine its close to 50 when you consider that Redknapp is 61 and Big Sam is 54.

True I should have said english not british.

and you have a point about there just being 9 english managers,

but I would prefer to consider all european leagues and divisions.

Samurai · 22-12-2008 02:28AM

Trapattoni doesn't give a **** about Ireland and is in it solely for the money

ShoulderChip · 22-12-2008 02:30AM

ditpoker wrote: »

... sigh...

ok, can yourself and lloyd please relalize that managers of today predominantly were either not successful mainstream footballers or were at their peak in the early 90's or late 80's or before that. The demographic of footballers was very much very much more white than black (i dont have figures not do i pretent to, you seem to make it out that you know thats its 50/50 now or something and therefore there should be 50/50 black/white managers).

equally, cultural demographics suggest that black males live in less well off areas (again, this is an educated guess, if you wanna do a census check, be my guess), as such, the playing population of black footballers, in my opinion, as a general guess are less educated and less career driven that some white footballers. Alot of footballers (black and white) get thrown into youth acadamees in their teens and dont get a full education, and plan to be a "pro footballer" and retire in their thirties. My guess, and if im wrong im wrong, but my guess is that the majority of modern managers are well educated or come from educated backgrounds and are likely to be more career minded, be likely to be more willing to do coaching badges, training, etc, and as such, i would suggest that of the white/black players from the mid 80's to modern day, that the ratio of career minded white players with a drive to further their career and pursue management : career minded black players with a drive to further their career and pursue management is about equal to there only being 3 black managers thus far.

That is a great point actually, except for where you say that I seem to make out that the ratio is 50/50 I do not at all, at all.

I just said that the ratio appears to be slightly askew with the proportions of players, I did not factor in career aspirations as you have.

redout · 22-12-2008 02:39AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Three black premiership managers:

Ruud Gullit
Jean Tigana
Paul Ince

Now think of all the premiership managerial appointments made over 16 years and the percentage of total hires that amounts to. Now think about the percentage of premiership appearances in 16 years that have been made by black players.

And tell me there isn't an illogical disparity there.

Great, throw that at a judge and he would hardly take it as definitive.

Example: Say one in every 100 managers has true class regardless of race.

This is going back to demographics again. Now 80 white guys apply for a job. Now only 20 black managers apply. Less chance that their will be one of quality especially from a smaller pool but not impossible. If their is alot more white candidates applying for every position than black then their is a greater chance of a white manger being hired over a black manager. This is very easy to see and comprehend. It is the same with all jobs in that country CEO's, Chairman, Civil servants etc. like someone pointed out already. It is not discrimination. The cream always rise's to the top. If good enough they will get there regardless of race and remember its not just being black, they have to have quality also or they wont be hired. That goes for white managers also. This makes things even more difficult.

Nalz · 22-12-2008 02:40AM

Lucas and Mascherano are completely over-rated

Ibrahimovic is a flash in the pan youtube striker

Wayne Rooney is not and never will be world class

Darren Fletcher is a great player

Darren Gibson will make it

Puyol is one of the worst CBs Ive ever seen

Im starting to hate people who laugh at the fact I go to LOI games and look down on it. Call ourselves Irish and football fans? Lets improve the game on our doorstep eh people?

We're always gonna suffer because of the above point and I think its awfully awfully sad. I know that we're laughed at by certain British and other foreign people for supporting their clubs

I really hate this whole " I support United/Pool and I hate those other cnuts" carry on

BBCs commentary team are the biggest shower of eejits I ever come across.

Rodney Marsh was harshly sacked by Sky

Fergie should get rid of Ronaldo

Im starting to lose any little affection I had for Celtic. Come on the Bohs or any other LOI team!!!

I give Abramovich another 3 years max before he gets bored and leaves Chelsea in limbo

Steven Gerrard is the best central midfielder in the premiership (yes controversial if ya heard our lunch discussion on Thursday last)

Gallas is rubbish

Robinho isnt worth quarter his fee

Neither was Berbatov

Jaap Stam was the closest player Ive seen to the level of Paul McGrath in the premiership

Aston Villa will finish 4th

anonymous_joe · 22-12-2008 02:41AM

ShoulderChip wrote: »

That is a great point actually, except for where you say that I seem to make out that the ratio is 50/50 I do not at all, at all.

I just said that the ratio appears to be slightly askew with the proportions of players, I did not factor in career aspirations as you have.

You're right that they're undderated, but it's not as bad as you'd think I reckon.

I'm sure in 10 years time, there'll be more black managers, because then the lads from the 90s will be beginning to make it to the higher echelons as managers.

The points on education might also be worth examining unfortunately. One of the reasons black people do so 'badly' in terms of achievements is that poor backgrounds lead to poor education and a whole other host of social problems that hold back a higher proportion of people. That could apply to a lot of minorities. How many English managers are of an Irish background?

Of the current England team, Rooney and (I think) Gerrard have some Irish ancestry.

Karmafaerie · 22-12-2008 02:41AM

I love lamp.

Kevster · 22-12-2008 02:41AM

For the record, I'm not afraid to express ANY opinion that I have, but I've been thinking about these for a while now:

Firstly, there should be a salary cap, as there is in France.

Secondly, the amount of money awarded to each team according to their finishing position in each league should be reversed (i.e. - instead of the 1st-placed team getting the most, the last-placed team should ge it; and so-on).

Thirdly, there should be stricter and retrospective punishments (using video-replays of games) for players who cheat.

Fourthly, there should be a draft-like system, as in the NFL in the USA. This would do away with transfer fees (which is out of control currently). Using this system, the worst-placed team one year has the first draft pick the next year. Over time, this would make soccer a more competitive sport and would prevent clubs going bust.

Kevin

Your most Controversial Soccer opinions

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