The Protocols of the Elders of Zion

Diogenes · 09-12-2008 10:57PM #1

During my enforced absence I had some time to think and research the grandaddy of all modern conspiracy theories.

The Protocols first appeared in 1903 in the Russian newspaper Znamia. An Anti Jewish Pogrom was taking place in Russia at the time
This was taking place with at least the tact approval of Tsar Nicholas, articles blaming Jews for all societies ills, similar to the propaganda we saw during the Kosova and Rwandan conflicts designed to whip up ethic tension were common place.

The Protocols have been exposed as a fraud repeatedly

Despite their wide distribution, The Protocols have been exposed repeatedly as a hoax.

In 1921 the Times of London published convincing proof that The Protocols were largely plagiarized from books published decades earlier—primarily The Dialogue in Hell Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu, by Maurice Joly (1864) and Biarritz by Hermann Goedsche (1868).

In subsequent years similar exposés appeared in Germany and the United States. A U.S. Senate committee declared that The Protocols were bogus. And in 1993 they were officially declared fraudulent by a court in the country of their origin—Russia.

Even Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbels believed The Protocols were a fraud, though this did not stop Goebbels and the Nazi regime from employing the writings for their own ends.

National Geographic

1921 Times Article

Skepdic piece

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a forgery made in Russia for the Okhrana (secret police), which blames the Jews for the country's ills. It was first privately printed in 1897 and was made public in 1905. It is copied from a nineteenth century novel by Hermann Goedsche (Biarritz, 1868) and claims that a secret Jewish cabal is plotting to take over the world.

The basic story was composed by Goedsche, a German novelist and anti-Semite who used the pseudonym of Sir John Retcliffe. Goedsche stole the main story from another writer, Maurice Joly, whose Dialogues in Hell Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu (1864) involved a Hellish plot aimed at opposing Napoleon III. Goedsche's original contribution consists mainly of introducing Jews to do the plotting to take over the world.

The Russians used big chunks of a Russian translation of Goedsche's novel, published it separately as the Protocols, and claimed they were authentic. Their purpose was political: to strengthen the czar Nicholas II's position by exposing his opponents as allies with those who were part of a massive conspiracy to take over the world. Thus, the Protocols are a forgery of a plagiarized fiction.

You see after the assassination of Tsar Alexander II in 1881 his son enacted the May laws against the Jews (consider them similar to our "Penal Laws). Widely hated among the Jewish community many fled to the US or joined underground revolutionary groups like the Communist Party. It was in Tsar Nicholas's interest to stir up public sentiment against the Jews. Hence the Protocols.

What were the Protocols about

The protocols were written in the first person narrative style, listing instructions to a new Elder, outlining how the group will control the world. The Elders want to trick all "gentile nations", whom they call "goyim", into doing their will. The protocols refer to the 24 Protocols (or conspiracies) which they will use to gain control.

And this is relevant why?

Glad you asked. The methods outlined in the PotEZ are surprisingly often repeated on this forum, as current conspiracy theories going on in the world today, obviously some are outdated, but the overall themes and ideals expressed are exceptional current (provided you replace the word "Jew" with "NWO" or "Lizards".

I'll now list off a few of the Protocols and demonstrate how with a slip of a word, they could come from any mainstream conspiracy theory, website, talkshow, or forum. Even this forum.

1 Alcoholism, Annihilation of the privileges of the non-Jewish aristocracy, among other topics.

Here's 911 new world order talking about just the same thing. While the decline of the privileges of non Jewish Aristocracy was probably a burning issue in Imperial Russia, it's slipped off the agenda today.

The propagation of ideas, such as Darwinism, Marxism, Nietzsche-ism, Liberalism, Socialism, Communism, Anarchism, and Utopianism, with the task of undermining established forms of order.

Here's Jeff Rense claiming the NWO use Feminism, Zionism, and Marxism, to control humanity.

4 Materialism

A thread on above top secret talking about how the NWO want to make us all good obedient consumers.

5 World government

RtdH has got this one covered.

7 World wars

Alex Jones on NWO plans for WW3

10 Staging catastrophes against one's own people, then claiming a moral high ground for leverage (False flag)

Christ where to start on that one eh? USA carried out 911? USS liberty? MI5 carried out the london bombings? The Holocaust?

11 Universal suffrage

See above Jeff Rense on Feminism.

1, 12, 17 Curtailment of civil liberties with the excuse of defeating the enemies of peace

Just about every RtdH post on this forum.

Creating the impression of the existence of freedom of press, freedom of speech, human rights and democracy, all of which are subsequently undermined and become mere illusions or deceptive smokescreens behind which actual oppression lies

Alan Watts and Alex Jones discuss NWO media control.

There's alot more economic depressions, bread and circus', pornography, and I could go on if you like.

But the simple fact of the matter is pick pretty much any NWO conspiracy theory on this forum, and you can bet that the Tsar's secret police were making up that the Jews were behind something similar 105 years ago.

Mahatma coat · 09-12-2008 11:09PM

Just because the Liazzzzzard establishment says its a fake we're supposed to take their word for it eh?

Diogenes · 09-12-2008 11:16PM

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Just because the Liazzzzzard establishment says its a fake we're supposed to take their word for it eh?

So you don't think it's fake then Mahatma?

Mahatma coat · 10-12-2008 12:54AM

your all caught up on when it was written, not what it actualy says.

Diogenes · 10-12-2008 11:33AM

Mahatma coat wrote: »

your all caught up on when it was written,

And you missed the point, again. The when is crucially important. It is fiction, written at a time when Tsar Nicholas had a motive to slander and vilify the Russian Jewish Community. Did you not understand the lengthy bit I wrote putting it in historical context, and even drawing parallels with our own nation's history.

not what it actualy says.

Do you think that there is a jewish conspiracy to control the world then Mahatma?

Mahatma coat · 10-12-2008 12:14PM

well look at the protocols as laid out, the stated objectives, how many have been achieved?

you dont think theres a Lizzard conspiracy then?

10-12-2008 12:23PM

Mahatma coat wrote: »

well look at the protocols as laid out, the stated objectives, how many have been achieved?

you dont think theres a Lizzard conspiracy then?

I'm just seeing 1: universal suffrage.
Those dastardly Jews.

Edit: it gets the smackdown on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Protocols of the wise men of Zion, Library of Congress's Uniform Title; Russian: "Протоколы сионских мудрецов", or "Сионские протоколы" ; see also other titles) is an antisemitic tract alleging a Jewish and Masonic plot to achieve world domination. It has been proven to be a plagiarism,[1] literary forgery,[2][3][4] fraud[5][6] and a hoax.[7][8][9] It was first published in 1903 in Russian, in Znamya ("The Banner," a newspaper). The text has failed to pass any scholarly standards of authentication as an alleged historical document or record. A version of it was published in 1905, as a final Chapter XII in a second edition of a book by Serge Nilus on the subject of the coming of the Antichrist. Accordingly, "The Protocols" are originally intertwined with this author's Russian Orthodox dogma.[10]

meglome · 10-12-2008 12:27PM

Mahatma coat wrote: »

well look at the protocols as laid out, the stated objectives, how many have been achieved?

you dont think theres a Lizzard conspiracy then?

The problem is, after spending time reading about all of this, the protocols are fiction. And were written originally in a book that had nothing whatsoever to do with Jews. These original books exist so it can be verified that these protocols were copied wholesale from them.

So if I go to my bookshelf and compare the hundreds of books there with what has happened in the real world, I have no doubt there are parallels with reality. So should I assume the authors were involved or had inside knowledge or just maybe they wrote about things that potentially could happen to make a more believable story? Fiction is just that, fiction.

Diogenes · 10-12-2008 12:28PM

Mahatma coat wrote: »

well look at the protocols as laid out, the stated objectives, how many have been achieved?

Apparently Universal Sufferage was one of them, the bastards got that one over us!

you dont think theres a Lizzard conspiracy then?

Thats answering a question with a question Mahatma.

Do you think that there is a jewish conspiracy to control the world then Mahatma?

Yes or No?

10-12-2008 12:29PM

meglome wrote: »

The problem is, after spending time reading about all of this, the protocols are fiction. And were written originally in a book that had nothing whatsoever to do with Jews. These original books exist so it can be verified that these protocols were copied wholesale from them.

So if I go to my bookshelf and compare the hundreds of books there with what has happened in the real world, I have no doubt there are parallels with reality. So should I assume the authors were involved or had inside knowledge or just maybe they wrote about things that potentially could happen to make a more believable story? Fiction is just that, fiction.

Case and point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futility,_or_the_Wreck_of_the_Titan

Sofa_King Good · 10-12-2008 04:52PM

Excellent first post by the way.

According to L. Fry (she was married to a Tsarist Russia aristocrat & experienced the Bolshevik revolution first hand). in her book "Waters Flowing Eastward" The "forgery" can be traced further back to 1850, "Machiavelli Mintesquieu & Rousseau, by Jacob Vendey. Passages quoted from the protocols as plagiarised from the "dialogues" of 1865 are similar to several in Venedy's book of 1850.

The Times' theory according to Fry does not stand up on the basis that their premise is based on the fact that Joly was a Corsican, (whereas Vendey was a Jew), which is how it came into the hands of the Russian Secret Police, through Corsican members, for them to plagiarise.

Fry then goes on to line Vender, who was a close friend of Marx to Joly through Adolphe Cremieux, who was Presiedent of the Alliance Israelite Universelle and Supreme Master of of the Scottish Rite Freemasons.

Cremieux speaking to a general assembly of the Alliance -

" The Alliance is not limited to out cult; it voices its appeal to all cults and wants to penetrate in all religions, as it has penetrated into all countries. Let us endeavour boldly to bring about the union of all cults under one flag of "Union and Progress"; such is the motto of humanity".

For me, while there is no doubt that the protocols are a work of plagiarism, it is inconclusive by whom and for what purpose the act was carried out.

More Prohesy - An Article in the Judisk Tidskrift (No.6, Aug-Sept. 1929)

Written bu Dr Ehrenpreis, Chief Rabbi of Sweden.

" I participated with Herzl (President) in the first Zionist congress which was held in Basle in 1897. Herzl was the most prominent figure at that first Jewish World Congress. He worked to achieve an object which had been fixed beforehand. Just as Isaiah foresaw, decades before the event occured, the victorious power of Cyrus before anyone else, so did Herzl foresee twenty years, before we experienced them, the revolutions brought about by the Great War, and he prepared us for that which was going to happen. He foresaw the splitting of Turkey, and he foresaw that England would take control of Palestine. "We May expect important developments in the world". Those were the words spoken by Herzl twenty years before the Great War" He added that the events would offer the Jewish people fresh opportunities".

Diogenes · 10-12-2008 05:12PM

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

Excellent first post by the way.

According to L. Fry (she was married to a Tsarist Russia aristocrat & experienced the Bolshevik revolution first hand). in her book "Waters Flowing Eastward" The "forgery" can be traced further back to 1850, "Machiavelli Mintesquieu & Rousseau, by Jacob Vendey. Passages quoted from the protocols as plagiarised from the "dialogues" of 1865 are similar to several in Venedy's book of 1850.

The Times' theory according to Fry does not stand up on the basis that their premise is based on the fact that Joly was a Corsican, (whereas Vendey was a Jew), which is how it came into the hands of the Russian Secret Police, through Corsican members, for them to plagiarise.

Leslie Fry is a noted Anti Semite and inspiration for Henry Ford's section of his book entitled 'The International Jew the world's foremost Problem.

Fry considered Jews to be responsible for both WW1 and Bolshevism, without a shred of evidence for either.

Fry then goes on to line Vender, who was a close friend of Marx to Joly through Adolphe Cremieux, who was Presiedent of the Alliance Israelite Universelle and Supreme Master of of the Scottish Rite Freemasons.

You're slandering a French human rights activist who helped abolish slavery in French Colonies, nice....
Cremieux speaking to a general assembly of the Alliance -

For me, while there is no doubt that the protocols are a work of plagiarism, it is inconclusive by whom and for what purpose the act was carried out.

You believe in a conspiracy of Jews to control the world?

Sofa_King Good · 10-12-2008 05:14PM

slander? how?

For the record I don't believe in a conspiracy of Jews trying to take over the world.

Gareth37 · 10-12-2008 05:28PM

I agree generally with what is being said. It supports Our Lady's revelations for the end of times and also supports Biblical prophicies as far I can see.

1. One World Government: Russia, Large EU Nations and USA will be the main parts. I don't forsee India or China being behind this but I could be wrong.

2. One World Religion: They will attempt and succeed in taking down the church in Rome and will replace it with a new false religeon with a false leader who may be of Hebrew origon (dark/yellow skin) and proclaim to be the "saviour of the world" with a huge economic transformation.

3. It will become illegal to buy/sell anything without some "mark" which could be a card, microchip, stamp, tatoo etc either on the person or somewhere else. It may also be possible to memorise a number rather than psysically carry any type of payment method. All we know is that it will become illegal to buy/sell anything without this card/device/number/chip.

4. During a period of time it is likely that any country that is part of this antichrist will become extremely wealthy through a new economic model or through new inventions.

5. The G8 group of nations or whatever 8 nations planning this will become 7 nations or the 7 kings of the antichrist. Im not 100% sure about this. Also, Im not 100% sure about this but I think that the UK will remove itself from G8 and will work against great persecution with Ireland and other non-antichrist nations.

6. Mind control and making human minds blurred through cencorship, media and antichrist tools will be a big part of it.

The antichrist will mainly be Russia, EU and USA with a scatter of other nations thrown them. Among them Satan incarnate may walk.

Thats my interpretation. I hope that the UK government will have sense and reject any such movement no matter what the political or economic consequences.

10-12-2008 05:32PM

Gareth37 wrote: »

I agree generally with what is being said. It supports Our Lady's revelations for the end of times and also supports Biblical prophicies as far I can see.

What being said is that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a hoax and fraud.
Maybe you should read the thread before you post.

Gareth37 · 10-12-2008 05:37PM

King Mob wrote: »

What being said is that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a hoax and fraud.
Maybe you should read the thread before you post.

Whats going on in the world in front of our eyes is no hoax and any country that supports it will be doomed without doubt!

10-12-2008 05:40PM

Gareth37 wrote: »

Whats going on in the world in front of our eyes is no hoax and any country that supports it will be doomed without doubt!

Bet you got tons of evidence.

However the evidence does show the Protocols to be fake.

Hellm0 · 10-12-2008 05:40PM

I really don't care who wrote it or why, I do not believe that there is a world wide Jewish conspiracy but I do take heed of what it say's. All of the main points that it raises are very valid concerns for any society and are slowly but surely coming to fruition, regardless of who or what is the driving force.

Even 1984 was fiction but would anyone deny that its predictions are scarily accurate?

Diogenes · 10-12-2008 05:41PM

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

slander? how?

You're discussing Fry for a start who believed the protocols were genuine, and suggesting there's a link from Cremieux to Marx, to be honest that statement was very fuzzy, passed by whom, and why?

It should be also pointed out that Fry's "Debunk" on the Times, was in no means the end of the investigation, with both German, US, and post Soviet russia investigations that generally point the finger at the Tsar's secret police.

Sofa_King Good · 10-12-2008 05:54PM

Diogenes wrote: »

You're discussing Fry for a start who believed the protocols were genuine, and suggesting there's a link from Cremieux to Marx, to be honest that statement was very fuzzy, passed by whom, and why?

It should be also pointed out that Fry's "Debunk" on the Times, was in no means the end of the investigation, with both German, US, and post Soviet russia investigations that generally point the finger at the Tsar's secret police.

From the Fry Book -
“he “Vendedy)worked in Brussels for thefounding, with Marx in 1847, of a secret organization, " The Communist League ofWorkers " (later the " Societe internationale de la Democratic ").

Venedey joined Marx in Germany, where hebecame one of the chiefs of the revolutionary committee of Fifty (March, 1848), and wassent as commissar into the Oberland to stand against Hecker.
Later elected as a memberof the Left from Hesse-Homburg, he continued to serve on the Committee of Fifty. It wasat this time that he brought out in Berlin his Machia-yelli, Montesquieu & Rousseau,stressing the views attributed to Machiavelli and Rousseau in favour of despotism and oppression

…the Alliance Israelite Universelle.15 The latter included men of as different political parties as the reactionaryimperialistFould, the liberal-conservative Disraeli, and the communist-revolutionaryMarx, and whether living under an empire, a constitutional monarchy or a republic, alllaboured towards a common aim, the establishment of an international Jewish worldpower.16

Prominent among them and in close touch with Venedey, was Adolphe IsaacCr6mieux (1798-1880)…

The French authorities, however, penetrated the thinlydisguised satire: Joly was arrestedand sentenced to two years imprisonment (April, 1865).

But the Dialogues had pleasedCremieux as much as they had displeased the emperor, and, when his term expired, hisJewish patron rallied to his support: Joly was able to found a legal review, Le Palais, withJules Favre, Desmaret, Leblond, Arago, Berryer, and Adolphe Cremieux as its principalstockholders.”

Diogenes · 10-12-2008 05:55PM

Hellm0 wrote: »

I really don't care who wrote it or why, I do not believe that there is a world wide Jewish conspiracy but I do take heed of what it say's.

Stop, take head of who's saying it, and why they're saying it.

All of the main points that it raises are very valid concerns for any society and are slowly but surely coming to fruition, regardless of who or what is the driving force.

No it just goes to show that fears about a minority elite trying to control the world, tap into a rich vein of paranoid imagination.

Even 1984 was fiction but would anyone deny that its predictions are scarily accurate?

You're right there's a wall screen in my house, that I cannot switch off and monitors me constantly. Oh no wait there isn't.

Well there's the fact that there's a giant ministry that constantly edits and rewrites history. Oh no wait there isn't.

Well I'm getting pissed on victory gin, in airstrip one. No wait I'm not.

Well the three great powers (Europe, US, China) are constantly at war with each other, in an ever changing mixture of Alliances. No wait they aren't.

I live in a democratic nation, I can elect public officials. There is a degree of official accountability, there is no rationing, no one is "disappeared". The government isn't trying to control thoughts through "newspeak" (teenagers texting each other are doing a fine job of that themselves)

Now you'll excuse me, I need to go to the three minute hate. Oh no wait I don't.

Sofa_King Good · 10-12-2008 06:10PM

I am just providing an alternative, in all probabilty it was as you say. But that is not to say that world zionism ideals are a huge departure from SOME of this stuff, and thats without even mentioning the Talmud.

Take another look at the quote from Cremieux. "one cult" "one flag" - Internationalism.

Hellm0 · 10-12-2008 06:22PM

Diogenes wrote: »

Stop, take head of who's saying it, and why they're saying it.

I have, I don't care.

Diogenes wrote: »

No it just goes to show that fears about a minority elite trying to control the world, tap into a rich vein of paranoid imagination.

There is a minority elite trying to control the world, I just don't care if they are Jewish or not.

Diogenes wrote: »

You're right there's a wall screen in my house, that I cannot switch off and monitors me constantly. Oh no wait there isn't.

You got a TV? Thought control my friend, you may not be forced to watch it but in the words of Orwell "When finally you surrender to us, it must be of your own free will".

Diogenes wrote: »

Well there's the fact that there's a giant ministry that constantly edits and rewrites history. Oh no wait there isn't.

O rly?
Murdochulicious!
May not be one central ministry but history is certainly written by the winners and it certainly is rewritten or misrepresented on occasion.

Diogenes wrote: »

Well I'm getting pissed on victory gin, in airstrip one. No wait I'm not.

I did say the book was fiction.

Diogenes wrote: »

Well the three great powers (Europe, US, China) are constantly at war with each other, in an ever changing mixture of Alliances. No wait they aren't.

Not yet. I do liken the cold war to the above however. That said who needs to be in a real war when you've got a much easier to perpetuate "War on terror".

Diogenes wrote: »

I live in a democratic nation

Really? How many time's have we voted on Lisbon now again?

Diogenes wrote: »

I can elect public officials.

Democracy isn't it great?! May not be in Ireland but you get the idea.

Diogenes wrote: »

There is a degree of official accountability

Not really

Certainly not!

Diogenes wrote: »

no one is "disappeared".

They don't disappear they just get "Rendered"....Extraordinarily!

Diogenes wrote: »

The government isn't trying to control thoughts

Close enough?

Or perhaps I should link to Fox news again? Or maybe this?

Diogenes wrote: »

Now you'll excuse me, I need to go to the three minute hate. Oh no wait I don't.

Just be sure to look at Osama Bin Laden (Emanuel Goldstein) while your doing it.

Diogenes · 10-12-2008 06:43PM

Hellm0 wrote: »

I have, I don't care.

You don't care that the source of most major conspiracy theories is fiction?

There is a minority elite trying to control the world, I just don't care if they are Jewish or not.

But the first time this ideal was expressed was a lie about the jews.

You got a TV? Thought control my friend, you may not be forced to watch it but in the words of Orwell "When finally you surrender to us, it must be of your own free will".

It's not thought control, and I can switch it off, and change channels.

O rly?
Murdochulicious!
May not be one central ministry but history is certainly written by the winners and it certainly is rewritten or misrepresented on occasion.

And there are other viable sources of media, there isn't one centralised industry, and I am able to get alternative viewpoints and news sources.

Not yet. I do liken the cold war to the above however. That said who needs to be in a real war when you've got a much easier to perpetuate "War on terror".

A phrase that it well past it's sell by date.

Really? How many time's have we voted on Lisbon now again?

Um, once.

Democracy isn't it great?! May not be in Ireland but you get the idea.

Public official tries engages in illegal activity, public official arrested and facing long prison term.

Your point is?

Not really

Certainly not!

I never said the system was perfect, I merely pointed out how radically different the world is the world of Orwell's 1984.

They don't disappear they just get "Rendered"....Extraordinarily!

Do you know anyone who has suffered rendition?

I'm not saying it's an acceptable practice it's just not common place, and we don't send people to Gitmo for "thought crimes".

Close enough?

Overzealous official in protection against child porn. Oh the rage. A single page on the whole of wikipedia was banned by some ISPs. Christ it's a jackbooted foot stomping on a face for all time.

Or perhaps I should link to Fox news again? Or maybe this?

MKultra? Really? Honestly a search of this forum would be useful for you.

Just be sure to look at Osama Bin Laden (Emanuel Goldstein) while your doing it.

Goldstein was the unfairly scapegoated "villain" for the masses in 1984. Bin Laden is the spiritual leader of a terrorist organisation that's killed thousands of people, and wants to unite the world under fundamental Sharia Law. Oh wow, the parrallels are just, so, blinding.

Diogenes · 10-12-2008 06:44PM

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

I am just providing an alternative, in all probabilty it was as you say. But that is not to say that world zionism ideals are a huge departure from SOME of this stuff, and thats without even mentioning the Talmud.

Take another look at the quote from Cremieux. "one cult" "one flag" - Internationalism.

Yes but your source for that quote is a 80 year old book from a militant anti semite, how can I verify it as accurate?

Gareth37 · 10-12-2008 07:12PM

The biggest solar flare ever in recorded history:

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006/21dec_cycle24.htm

Hellm0 · 10-12-2008 07:21PM

Diogenes wrote: »

You don't care that the source of most major conspiracy theories is fiction?

Did you not read my post?

Diogenes wrote: »

But the first time this ideal was expressed was a lie about the jews.

I am not an anti-semite, I take what I want from the document.

Diogenes wrote: »

It's not thought control, and I can switch it off, and change channels.

As someone who has worked in Advertising, I can safely say that television is infact mind control.

Diogenes wrote: »

And there are other viable sources of media, there isn't one centralised industry, and I am able to get alternative viewpoints and news sources.

Read this

Diogenes wrote: »

A phrase that it well past it's sell by date.

The war on terror? Seems pretty fresh to me

Diogenes wrote: »

Public official tries engages in illegal activity, public official arrested and facing long prison term.

Your point is?

One amongst many.

Diogenes wrote: »

I never said the system was perfect, I merely pointed out how radically different the world is the world of Orwell's 1984.

And I never said it was the exact same, I said there were similarities(without stating which) and you picked points from this work of fiction where you feel it departs for current reality. I feel differently but I never said we are living in the exact same circumstance.

Diogenes wrote: »

Do you know anyone who has suffered rendition?

No, do you? I don't think you need to know George Bush to ascertain he exists.

Diogenes wrote: »

I'm not saying it's an acceptable practice it's just not common place, and we don't send people to Gitmo for "thought crimes".

How long is a piece of string? The US has never divulged why they send people to Gitmo (or any of their secret prisons for that matter), the people being detained (and we do not know how many there are) are not given a trial.

Also read this.

Diogenes wrote: »

Overzealous official in protection against child porn. Oh the rage. A single page on the whole of wikipedia was banned by some ISPs. Christ it's a jackbooted foot stomping on a face for all time.

My point still stands, controlling what people know means you are controlling what people think.

Diogenes wrote: »

MKultra? Really? Honestly a search of this forum would be useful for you.

Again, did you not read my post? Yes MKUltra. Again my point still stands, it was an exercise in mind control. Though MKUltra did fail it has yielded significant advancements in torture techniques and population control.

Read "The Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein

Diogenes wrote: »

Goldstein was the unfairly scapegoated "villain" for the masses in 1984. Bin Laden is the spiritual leader of a terrorist organisation that's killed thousands of people, and wants to unite the world under fundamental Sharia Law. Oh wow, the parrallels are just, so, blinding.

Emanuel Goldstein is a fictional character both in reality and in the book 1984. Read the first few lines of this if you don't believe me.

Osama bin Laden is not the spiritual leader of a terrorist organisation cause the guy is DEAD. He has become a phantom used by the US similar to goldstein and also similarly enough to the devil in christian fiction.

After all, every story needs a villain.

Sofa_King Good · 10-12-2008 09:09PM

Diogenes wrote: »

Yes but your source for that quote is a 80 year old book from a militant anti semite, how can I verify it as accurate?

My Bad - Speech made on May 31, 1864; " Union and Progress " was the name given to
several revolutionary associations and Masonic lodges.

Also I feel I may be coming across as anti-semitic, which I am not. I am not referring to Jews http://www.nkusa.org , but Zionists. http://market-state.blogspot.com/2007/11/technotronic-society.html

bonkey · 10-12-2008 09:27PM

Hellm0 wrote: »

There is a minority elite trying to control the world.

Since the dawn of civilisation, the world has always been controlled by a minority. By virtue of their position, they are by definition the elite.

You got a TV? Thought control my friend, you may not be forced to watch it but in the words of Orwell "When finally you surrender to us, it must be of your own free will".

You live in a society? Thought control, my friend.

Orwell was a clever chap. He understood a lot of the basic concepts of sociology. He wrote dark fiction. He was no prophet.

May not be one central ministry but history is certainly written by the winners and it certainly is rewritten or misrepresented on occasion.

And it always has been. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion were exactly that - an attempt to rewrite history.

Conspiracy Theories in general are an attempt to rewrite history.

Of course, its ok to try and rewrite history when you already believe the edited version, right?

Hellm0 · 10-12-2008 09:40PM

bonkey wrote: »

Since the dawn of civilisation, the world has always been controlled by a minority. By virtue of their position, they are by definition the elite.

No argument from me on that one, I just think that social hierarchy is something to be fought/questioned not accepted blindly.

bonkey wrote: »

You live in a society? Thought control, my friend.

Of course! Every society has an "Ideal Citizen", a model around which laws and social conventions are formed. My only issue with that is what is artificial changes to the concept of the ideal citizen and to what ends those changes are made.

bonkey wrote: »

Orwell was a clever chap. He understood a lot of the basic concepts of sociology. He wrote dark fiction. He was no prophet.

Maybe he was not but his work has been prophetic.

bonkey wrote: »

And it always has been. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion were exactly that - an attempt to rewrite history.

This is true, that does not change the trends identified by the document. I am not saying that it is true nor necessarily factual but it does highlight thing's which need to be addressed in modern society.

bonkey wrote: »

Conspiracy Theories in general are an attempt to rewrite history.

I would use the word "revisit" instead of rewrite. Rewriting of history is not a bad thing when what is uncovered by re-visitation of the facts is true.

bonkey wrote: »

Of course, its ok to try and rewrite history when you already believe the edited version, right?

[/QUOTE]

I am skeptical of everything and am all too happy to revise my believes or ideas when proven wrong.

10-12-2008 10:49PM

Gareth37 wrote: »

The biggest solar flare ever in recorded history:

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006/21dec_cycle24.htm

Whats this to do with the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion

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