Campaign to say NO to govt compensation over pork problem

ShooterSF · 09-12-2008 05:40PM

javaboy wrote: »

That's a fair point. Unfortunately investors don't have buckets of money floating around at the moment. As Sarah Palin might say, "I feel ill" over any pork industry bailout but I'd rather have a thriving pork industry that got out of jail at the taxpayer's expense once than a devastated pork industry.

Im sure there are enough opportunists out there to see the chance to get their hands on some underpriced farms. If not I'd be surprised. The other alternative I could think of was the tax payers lending the money but that's rather pointless as it'll just indirectly push up prices.

It'a not nice to have people loosing jobs but that's what happens when an industry hits such a bump.

I do agree with them seeking comp from the feed suppliers as they were at fault here.
The question the farming industry has to ask itself then is why did the government feel that the products could not be traced and it was better to wipe out all the stock. There seems to be something going on there.

phantom_lord · 09-12-2008 05:48PM

javaboy wrote: »

As Sarah Palin might say, "I feel ill" over any pork industry bailout but I'd rather have a thriving pork industry that got out of jail at the taxpayer's expense once than a devastated pork industry.

huh? we're never gonna have such a thing, even if they're bailed out. if the industry is as weak as is suggested in this thread, amd is knocked to it's knees by this then so be it. it's only worth 400m a year to the economy and sounds like it's in dire straits. let it burn imo. we'd be much better off supporting an industry with a future.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 09-12-2008 06:08PM

Well the fact of the matter is, if the government pays the farmers for their loss of revenue, then them 2000 jobs would have been secured. That is ok with me. What I do not like is the fact that these farmers say they will not produce any more products until they are payed for their loss.

We, the consumer, have a lot of substitutes for this. Chicken, beef, fish etc etc. We can buy differant products. Although I like my pork, I am not going to be held hostage by the farmers. Let them rot if they are going to have attitudes like this. That is the lowest of the low, holding food products ransom for taxpayers money...

ven0m · 09-12-2008 06:31PM

javaboy wrote: »

Noblestee is making a good point though. Sometimes the taxpayer has to step in and fix things that the taxpayer didn't break because to do otherwise would be socially/morally irresponsible or would be a case of cutting of your nose to spite your face. e.g. fixing the health service, guaranteeing banks and maybe bailing out the pig farming industry.

It's all well and good to say consumers claim off retailers, retailers claim off suppliers, suppliers claim off feed manafacturers but in reality that won't work. I don't have the receipt for my rashers and sausages and the sliced ham I threw out. I'd say countless people are in the same boat. And you seem to be only considering the produce that had to be scrapped. There are so many other losses involved. Consumer confidence in Irish pork has been eroded here and destroyed abroad.

That has cost jobs already and will cost more. No amount of refunds for discarded meat will be able to compensate for that. And as for suing the feed company at the centre of it all, what will happen there is it will quickly go bankrupt and nobody will get much out of them.

So we'll have a seriously damaged pork industry and the taxpayer will still have to fork out for the dole payments.

The Irish taxpayer over the years has not gotten any value for money where it's had to step in & fix things. We're stepping in to help greedy bankers & already there is no value, & they insist on spending lavish amounts on parties, etc, & still no sign of the big 'company cars' being done away with ..... which WE are footing the bill for twice; as customers & tax payers.

There has to come a point where tax-payer value for money comes first, & given the crisis with public coffers, that really needs to be the first question.

ShooterSF · 09-12-2008 08:25PM

Lucia Melted Meteorology wrote: »

Well the fact of the matter is, if the government pays the farmers for their loss of revenue, then them 2000 jobs would have been secured. That is ok with me. What I do not like is the fact that these farmers say they will not produce any more products until they are payed for their loss.

We, the consumer, have a lot of substitutes for this. Chicken, beef, fish etc etc. We can buy differant products. Although I like my pork, I am not going to be held hostage by the farmers. Let them rot if they are going to have attitudes like this. That is the lowest of the low, holding food products ransom for taxpayers money...

It's simple. Following through the solution here is not that bad. Farmers not making produce run out of money. They have to sell their farms. People buy the land and off them and become farmers 2000 people get new jobs.

Or the farmers sell up. We rezone the land and put in industrial parks, import our produce and export something else. 2000 people get their jobs back.

jhegarty · 09-12-2008 08:38PM

Your own ford cars. You have done everything correctly and safely.

One other car manufacture makes a dogey car that crashes and possibly hurts someone's leg. No one was died , or is seriously injured.

The government overreacts and recalls all cars from sales , and orders them crushed.

Should you pick up the tab , or the government ?

brianthebard · 09-12-2008 08:40PM

ven0m wrote: »

Be that as it may I can't help but feel what you said is an atypical response from an atypical irish person who couldn't care less - it is this kind of apathy that has the country in the crap it is in - because the politicians in all parties know how apathetic the populous is to anything, they continue to screw us, abuse us, & generally not do their part of 'for the people, by the people', abuse money we pay in every day into the tax system, without any accountability & then later penalise us when they waste it.

Gordon Brown may be an arse, but at least he will talk the talk, unlike our shower of gits who go unchallenged.

If you pay for something, which you do through your tax - you have a right to complain, & not exercising that complaint when it is warranted is borderline criminal.

He talk's what talk? He dithered for ages before nationalising Northern Rock. Same with the election that never happened. Just because this has been happening since September doesn't necessarily mean anyone knew about it-I don't know any farmers who would intentionally poison their livestock and make them worthless. And even if its just for reasons of maintaining the base FF are good at dealing with agricultural issues by and large (F&M)

brianthebard · 09-12-2008 08:41PM

Mathew Reilly wrote: »

It's the typical farmer mentality..someone somewhere has to compensate them..fair enough in this case but definitely not the taxpayers job to.

You know nothing about farming or the farming sector.

jhegarty · 09-12-2008 08:48PM

brianthebard wrote: »

You know nothing about farming or the farming sector.

I don't think anyone here does. The prices in the supermarket caused by unsubsidized farming would wake them up pretty quickly

ShooterSF · 09-12-2008 08:51PM

jhegarty wrote: »

Your own ford cars. You have done everything correctly and safely.

One other car manufacture makes a dogey car that crashes and possibly hurts someone's leg. No one was died , or is seriously injured.

The government overreacts and recalls all cars from sales , and orders them crushed.

Should you pick up the tab , or the government ?

More likely a few manufacturers cars are dodgey due to a company that makes engines sends out a batch of faulty engines.
For some reason no one in the car industry points out that the cars can be traced back to their manufacturers (something there suppose to have in place) for "some" reason and all are crushed.
Now who picks up the tab?
Either The engine maker most likely or to a minor extent those responsible for keeping track of this trace back system.
If the car manufacturers decide then instead of taking legal action against the government if they have a problem they try and blackmail the system then they should be left to rot.

BlindedByGInge · 09-12-2008 09:12PM

ShooterSF wrote: »

It's simple. Following through the solution here is not that bad. Farmers not making produce run out of money. They have to sell their farms. People buy the land and off them and become farmers 2000 people get new jobs.

Or the farmers sell up. We rezone the land and put in industrial parks, import our produce and export something else. 2000 people get their jobs back.

What kind of solution is this. You are taking the piss i presume.
What 2000 farmers are going to be able to sell their land in these current times. And fyi these 2000 people are from the pork processing industry and they need jobs and have no major assets. If the government dont bail out the pork processers then, not only will we have an even longer dole queue then we will also have way higher pork prices, more foreign pork and a massive collapse in the agricultural sector. Hence even longer dole queues. People are complaining about not having their fry ups in the morning now, what will it be like when you are paying twice the price for it.

Also lets just stop any type of agricultural grant, its not the taxpayers problem!!!! ITS EVERYBODYS PROBLEM. Its on the same basis/theory most people here have about helping out the pork industry. Just wait until fodd prices increase so much that no-one can pay their bills leading to an even bigger depression. I cant wait, can you?

Kershaw.D · 09-12-2008 09:25PM

Does anyone know when it will be safe for us to eat pork again

ShooterSF · 09-12-2008 09:50PM

BlindedByGInge wrote: »

What kind of solution is this. You are taking the piss i presume.
What 2000 farmers are going to be able to sell their land in these current times. And fyi these 2000 people are from the pork processing industry and they need jobs and have no major assets. If the government dont bail out the pork processers then, not only will we have an even longer dole queue then we will also have way higher pork prices, more foreign pork and a massive collapse in the agricultural sector. Hence even longer dole queues. People are complaining about not having their fry ups in the morning now, what will it be like when you are paying twice the price for it.

Also lets just stop any type of agricultural grant, its not the taxpayers problem!!!! ITS EVERYBODYS PROBLEM. Its on the same basis/theory most people here have about helping out the pork industry. Just wait until fodd prices increase so much that no-one can pay their bills leading to an even bigger depression. I cant wait, can you?

Well if the farmers believe that the government owe them compensation because of a gross over reaction on their part fair enough let them take it to the courts and we'll have one more reason to boot this ****e government out. However the throwing my rattle out of my pram till I get what I want tactic doesnt wash. Any farmer who could be working now and isn't can take his pork sausages and put them where the sun don't shine tbh.
I have no problem with farmers getting compensation if someone can tell me why those that supplied them with contaminated feed shouldnt pay it and why the government felt they couldnt trace the pork back to their specific farms?
The second question is something Im genuinely interested in. Was it government overreaction? Was the trace back system inadequate, and who's fault would that be? Or were farmers bending rules (don't know why they would but Im sure theres probably some reason) ?

brianthebard · 09-12-2008 09:52PM

ShooterSF wrote: »

Well if the farmers believe that the government owe them compensation because of a gross over reaction on their part fair enough let them take it to the courts and we'll have one more reason to boot this ****e government out. However the throwing my rattle out of my pram till I get what I want tactic doesnt wash. Any farmer who could be working now and isn't can take his pork sausages and put them where the sun don't shine tbh.
I have no problem with farmers getting compensation if someone can tell me why those that supplied them with contaminated feed shouldnt pay it and why the government felt they couldnt trace the pork back to their specific farms?
The second question is something Im genuinely interested in. Was it government overreaction? Was the trace back system inadequate, and who's fault would that be? Or were farmers bending rules (don't know why they would but Im sure theres probably some reason) ?

Which farmers do you feel could be working and aren't? Do you have a list?Why are they not working? Really, I'd love to see you keep digging this hole.

Dyr · 09-12-2008 09:59PM

jhegarty wrote: »

I don't think anyone here does. The prices in the supermarket caused by unsubsidized farming would wake them up pretty quickly

We'd probably be saving about half the EU's budget if we werent given farmers subsidies.

If we dropped our import tariff's on foreign imports they'd knock the living p*ss out of our homegrown produce on value.

Of course you wouldnt have the peace of mind of knowing that your food is safe with that all foreign stuff.... :pac:

Most workers have spent their life handing over free money to farmers, let 'em go to the wall.

ShooterSF · 09-12-2008 10:00PM

brianthebard wrote: »

Which farmers do you feel could be working and aren't? Do you have a list?Why are they not working? Really, I'd love to see you keep digging this hole.

First line in the OP's post. Didnt see it disputed in 3 pages either.

paddysdream · 09-12-2008 10:38PM

Bambi wrote: »

We'd probably be saving about half the EU's budget if we werent given farmers subsidies.

If we dropped our import tariff's on foreign imports they'd knock the living p*ss out of our homegrown produce on value.

Of course you wouldnt have the peace of mind of knowing that your food is safe with that all foreign stuff.... :pac:

Most workers have spent their life handing over free money to farmers, let 'em go to the wall.

unlike most people on here ranting and raving about farming i actually do know it very well and can assure you that most irish food is produced at a loss to the producer and subsidies only compensate for the artifically low prices demanded by supermarkets
if farming was so easy and profitable why dont you try it ?
for an industrial wage you would need approx 250 acres@ say 14000 an acre ,that would need to be mortgaga free by the way
then maybe a seasonal loan of approx 35000 to 60000
sheep: average irish flock about 150ewes thats 250 lambs @ 75=18750 GROSS pre tax profit on those is about 2000 (yes2000)
mine own flock is about 6 times that so profit is about 12000 pre tax
add in subs and i still cant make average industrial wage on a highly productive large scale system with over 2 mil in assets
cattle:a joke at the mo. read any farming publication official or otherwise and it states in black and white ,over 80% of irish cattle die in debt only eu subvention keeps the industry going
tillage: not bad on a large scale ie farms 10 to 15 times national average will give a decent return ie about 30000 to 40000 a year
milk:best of the lot but an almost closed shop ,setup up costs from scratch are beyond belief
pigs:know a few medium to large pig farmers and wouldnt take a cheque from them for a fiver!!
by the way op what "unsubsidised" industry do you work in ?maybe for a large americian corp. with ida grants and low tax
maybe a civil service or gov. job with days in lieu and privelige days
how about the ifsc with its tax breaks
maybe its a bank with its bailout rescue plan
if you can show me an industry or sector that has NEVER been directly or indirectly supported then maybe you have a point

Dyr · 09-12-2008 11:04PM

dont you worry, my job is reliant on private fee's and subscriptions. And if we loose them what we'll get is the dole not cushy subventions to keep unprofitable businesses going just because the govt is scared we'll drive some tractors up kildare street. :pac:

brianthebard · 09-12-2008 11:08PM

ShooterSF wrote: »

First line in the OP's post. Didnt see it disputed in 3 pages either.

It wasn't disputed because that line doesn't exist in the OP. You are the first person to suggest there are farmers who aren't working when they could be. The op said there were people in factories temporarily out of work-I suggest you read that first post again.

paddysdream · 09-12-2008 11:15PM

ah so you have the dole to fall back on
i dont have that despite paying a higher rate of prsi and not having a paye tax allowance!!
so , you can fail in the sure and certain knowledge that my tax will subsidise you

still havent told us what it is you do :could it be because it "might" be supported

ShooterSF · 09-12-2008 11:20PM

brianthebard wrote: »

It wasn't disputed because that line doesn't exist in the OP. You are the first person to suggest there are farmers who aren't working when they could be. The op said there were people in factories temporarily out of work-I suggest you read that first post again.

Apologies its the factories that are refusing. My mistake I transfer my comments about placing sausages up the ass to the factory owners so.
Still think compo has to come from the feed suppliers not govt.

Also I wasnt the first.

Lucia Melted Meteorology wrote: »

Well the fact of the matter is, if the government pays the farmers for their loss of revenue, then them 2000 jobs would have been secured. That is ok with me. What I do not like is the fact that these farmers say they will not produce any more products until they are payed for their loss.

We, the consumer, have a lot of substitutes for this. Chicken, beef, fish etc etc. We can buy differant products. Although I like my pork, I am not going to be held hostage by the farmers. Let them rot if they are going to have attitudes like this. That is the lowest of the low, holding food products ransom for taxpayers money...

So Im not the first to misread it.

BlindedByGInge · 10-12-2008 12:00AM

ShooterSF wrote: »

Apologies its the factories that are refusing. My mistake I transfer my comments about placing sausages up the ass to the factory owners so.
Still think compo has to come from the feed suppliers not govt.

Apologies accepted! In this thread so far it has been mainly pro-farmers objecting to the threads title but what happens when the idiots who effed up in the first place, the feed suppliers, have to go bust just to pay off this debt they owe to most of the country. There will then be farmers without feed for their animals, the only alternate will be to import foreign feeds, leading to higher price, higher food prices, and more problems for an already troubled country.

Yes I do believe you have a point, why should the taxpayer have to pay for these 10/12 factories, that couldnt be bothered to take the plastic off the stale bread that goes into the feed, when they screw up.
But why then should the govt bail out the banks when they nearly go bankrupt for a problem that wasnt the govt's fault. Same theory. Stupid but it has to be done for the economy to survive.

The govt's job is to keep the economy running as well as possible, this includes keeping as many people in jobs as possible and preventing business' closing down. They bail out the banks to keep the finance sector afloat, now they must fix this overreaction they have caused by burying it as quick as possible and getting back the way it was before, reputations intact. Overreaction as in you will take in more PCB toxins if you smoke 20 fags a day than if you enjoy a plate of irish pork for your dinner!

Although I do hear a sigh of relief coming from Mary Harney as the glare of the media is taken of her personal use of taxpayers money for a little while!!

RATM · 10-12-2008 07:50AM

I couldn't agree more that the feed industry should have to pay for this debacle, surely they have insurance for these possibilities ? Any business person would insure their stock for fire and theft, why wouldn't livestock be insured and then claim on in the event of contamination?

I just don't agree with the government bailing out a private business. I could excuse it for the banks cause if there was no bailout it had the potential to collapse our small economy and send us reeling into a depression. But this is different, why should the taxpayer forced to stump up for a private industries cock-up ?

Bottom line though is the govt. know well they will have to have the farmers and their families onside this time if Lisbon Part Deux is to go through. And it's probably only seven months away. If the govt don't do it the farmers will remember this at the polling booths.Farmers will get their compo, right or wrong, there's no doubt they'll get their compo.

skelliser · 10-12-2008 08:16AM

Where are ppl getting feed suppliers from?, there is only one supplier at fault here, one solitary supplier. How do you expect his insurance to pay out all the compensation? in fact i think his insurance is void since he didnt have a proper license.

In reality 90% of the pork is fine, the gov. banned all of it in a knee jerk re-action and now because of their f**k up, we the tax payer will now pay. Once again ff have deflected the responsibility from themselves and ye all fell for it. Wise up and us your vote come next summer.

I would much rather see those hard-working people being helped and put back to work then the scumbag banks.

ven0m · 10-12-2008 11:14AM

paddysdream wrote: »

unlike most people on here ranting and raving about farming i actually do know it very well and can assure you that most irish food is produced at a loss to the producer and subsidies only compensate for the artifically low prices demanded by supermarkets
if farming was so easy and profitable why dont you try it ?
for an industrial wage you would need approx 250 acres@ say 14000 an acre ,that would need to be mortgaga free by the way
then maybe a seasonal loan of approx 35000 to 60000
sheep: average irish flock about 150ewes thats 250 lambs @ 75=18750 GROSS pre tax profit on those is about 2000 (yes2000)
mine own flock is about 6 times that so profit is about 12000 pre tax
add in subs and i still cant make average industrial wage on a highly productive large scale system with over 2 mil in assets
cattle:a joke at the mo. read any farming publication official or otherwise and it states in black and white ,over 80% of irish cattle die in debt only eu subvention keeps the industry going
tillage: not bad on a large scale ie farms 10 to 15 times national average will give a decent return ie about 30000 to 40000 a year
milk:best of the lot but an almost closed shop ,setup up costs from scratch are beyond belief
pigs:know a few medium to large pig farmers and wouldnt take a cheque from them for a fiver!!
by the way op what "unsubsidised" industry do you work in ?maybe for a large americian corp. with ida grants and low tax
maybe a civil service or gov. job with days in lieu and privelige days
how about the ifsc with its tax breaks
maybe its a bank with its bailout rescue plan
if you can show me an industry or sector that has NEVER been directly or indirectly supported then maybe you have a point

Again, no-one is forcing a farmer to BE a farmer. Just like every other person in the market is being told, if you don't like your job, or want to make more money - go find one that will make you happy or make more money.

People who try defend farmers with the above act as though farmers are an entitlement-service to society. Sorry, they're not. EVERY business venture carries risk, & yes I agree supermarkets have ridiculously low buy prices for products (which I find offensive, as they charge us consumers a freakin premium for, i.e. milk. Farmers get sweet f.a. for a product, it's charged at the same rate as Petrol per litre by the consumer ..... retarded. milk doesn't need to be marketed, advertised etc - it sells itself at this stage!)

Farmers SHOULD be paid a fair price by supermarkets, but it won't happen as we live in a world where they can source globally cheaper despite shipping costs, which is the usual threat held over farmers, but hey - isn't that just the way the world is.

Farmers are not forced into being farmers. If you can't make your business work, sell it to someone who can or wants to try & go do something else. Having Joe taxpayer subsidise your business, go swing!

And to the above poster - pork isn't BANNED. There is only a guideline to not sell it until all tests are completed. You can sell it if you like & have done your own tests, much like Tesco UK have done, who are still selling Irish Pork sausages they insist have tested themselves, & which has no traces, which begs the question here.

This entire issue would be resolved quicker were PORK PROCESSORS (who are leading the compo claims here) not so ****ing greedy.

abouttobebanned · 10-12-2008 11:18AM

WOW. An intelligent debate on After Hours. I don't think I read anything about anyone porking yore ma or anything!

ven0m · 10-12-2008 11:23AM

brianthebard wrote: »

He talk's what talk? He dithered for ages before nationalising Northern Rock. Same with the election that never happened. Just because this has been happening since September doesn't necessarily mean anyone knew about it-I don't know any farmers who would intentionally poison their livestock and make them worthless. And even if its just for reasons of maintaining the base FF are good at dealing with agricultural issues by and large (F&M)

Nationalising a bank which has direct impacts on an economy, especially while Virgin dithered on whether to buy or not is a different story.

The issue over farmers 'poisoning their livestock' argument is null & void. Farmers were in FULL knowledge feeding bonemeal to cows. I am pretty sure Cows do NOT eat other cows naturally. Same as feeding steroids to cows to artificially fatten them. if there were no food safety guidelines, they'd engage in feeding cows PCP like they did in the USA for a period of time.

Gordon Brown has been forcing banks to comply with passing on rate cuts, forcing petrol service station businesses to pass on the oil price cuts. Our lot? scratching their arses cos they're creaming in taxes to be abused by people like Roddy Molloy, Brendan Drum & god knows who the hell else, & feeding a generally over-bloated, overpaid, under-worked public service.

If you send someone to the shops to do your shopping for you with YOUR money & a general list, you would like them to exercise the best judgement, & get the best value for your money. Our tax money should be treated with the same level of respect; VALUE FOR MONEY SPENT.

robtri · 10-12-2008 11:38AM

There is a lot of talk here about crap and not the real issue, the government needs to bail out the pork sector if it makes sense to do so financially,
basically its a questions of maths, so far we have seen 3000 jobs in the processing plants go, and if this keeps up more will follow, probably up to 4000, then the pig farmers will also go to the wall, another 1000, then the feed companies will have to let go more people, and all the subsidery business that are involved... you would probably be talking close to 8,000 jobs if not more being lost,
in the current climate, unlikely they will find more work....
so is it more finacially sound to pay out a large amount of cash now to support the industry and get a return on investment by the industry and workers ( tax )
or let them all go on the dole and continue to pay them money for at least a year and have no return on this???

old boy · 10-12-2008 11:53AM

BlindedByGInge wrote: »

What kind of solution is this. You are taking the piss i presume.
What 2000 farmers are going to be able to sell their land in these current times. And fyi these 2000 people are from the pork processing industry and they need jobs and have no major assets. If the government dont bail out the pork processers then, not only will we have an even longer dole queue then we will also have way higher pork prices, more foreign pork and a massive collapse in the agricultural sector. Hence even longer dole queues. People are complaining about not having their fry ups in the morning now, what will it be like when you are paying twice the price for it.

Also lets just stop any type of agricultural grant, its not the taxpayers problem!!!! ITS EVERYBODYS PROBLEM. Its on the same basis/theory most people here have about helping out the pork industry. Just wait until fodd prices increase so much that no-one can pay their bills leading to an even bigger depression. I cant wait, can you?

the galtee brand is supposed to be imported from denmark, b.t.w. should not ned o keeffe be minister for agriculture, seem as the family has been in the industry for years, (which improves the odds for farmers to get compo)

old boy · 10-12-2008 11:59AM

should not the people that are at the root of the problem be hauled before the courts and dealt with, with a mandatory sentence,
the guy that brought in the sheep with the b.s.e. some time ago was brought before the courts, but i.mo. was dealt with quite leniently.
using oil from electricty transformers w.t.h.

Campaign to say NO to govt compensation over pork problem

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