Difference between cruelty and learning.

boomerang · 03-12-2008 03:42PM

Three things that actually help improve your bond with your dog, open up a clear channel of communication and (in the case of training) stimulate his mind:

Grooming
Clicker training
Trick training

Trick training un-necessary, grooming abusive and clicker-training mental torture?

I'm sorry, but those views are so uneducated, I give up on this thread. I really do! Sure teaching your dogs tricks is un-necessary, but it gives your dog something to think about, it's an active way of spending time with your dog, and everytime he performs the trick, he gets food rewards and praise. What's wrong with that?

Edited to add: On a side note IvySlayer, if your dog came from Offaly, it couldn't possibly have come from the RSPCA. Was it the ISPCA?

Whispered · 03-12-2008 03:48PM

hobochris wrote: »

I agree with the op. If it was cruelty:

A. THE DOG WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN LICKING HIM AFTER.

B. THE DOG WOULD BE COWERING OR TRYING TO GET AWAY FROM THE OP.

It is the quickist way to inform the dog that you are the alfa of the pack.

I'm not saying beat or hurt the dog. a tap is enough to get his/her attention and let it know who's boss.

I also hear wiping a dogs nose in it's own excrement is a good way to teach it not to go in the house as well as asserting you as Alpha. :rolleyes: And really, your above post shows exactly what you know of dog behaviour. Dogs lick, to try to please you. It's a fear thing unless the dog is being genuinely affectionate. Did you train your dog to sit by this method?

1. Say the command, if he does not respond, say it louder.
2. Stand up straight and look as big as you can (if only this could apply for other things ) to try and scare the dog a little.
3. Get rough, I don't mean inflict pain, if he doesn't respond push him or drag him into his bed until he learns.
4. Still won't respond, gentle tap on the nose. Although be careful to distungish that the dog is being disobidient rather than he doesn't know what to do

Obviously the dog does not know what was meant, with all the shouting, looking scary and nose taps (which is hitting in my book) I'm suprised it ever copped what the OP was on about.

IvySlayer wrote: »

Oh I forgot they were needed before they gvae me the dog license!

No unfortunately anybody can go out and get a dog and a license.

IvySlayer wrote: »

My dog could sit, heel, go outside, and into her bed at a command. People are acting like I kicked her when she wouldn't do something, no, I never hit her for that, as I have stated I hit her once when she bit me, it was bloody painful and she needed to learn that it was completely unacceptable!

I will only hit a dog IF they are endangering somebody. Cruelty cannot be listed solely as under hitting.

How many people leave their dogs in their houses unattended for all hours? How many people teach their dogs tricks like Paw, Play dead, roll over, which are completely unecessary. How many people groom their pets over and over that it's abuse to them!

She died of a brain tumour and I miss her so much. I was a good owner, maybe my methods weren't the best, but they stuck. I didn't wallop her every time she didn't do something. I may of been a tiny bit rough, but it did no harm to her. I brought her to the vets every 6 months, and he said that we were very close and she was in perfect health. Everyone who has me down as a monster, I can assure you I am not.

IvySlayer wrote: »

I didn't need to attend classes, don't like my methods, fine, but it's certainly not cruel. If you think it was, report me. My dog could sit, heel, go outside, and into her bed at a command. People are acting like I kicked her when she wouldn't do something, no, I never hit her for that, as I have stated I hit her once when she bit me, it was bloody painful and she needed to learn that it was completely unacceptable!

I will only hit a dog IF they are endangering somebody. Cruelty cannot be listed solely as under hitting.

How many people leave their dogs in their houses unattended for all hours? How many people teach their dogs tricks like Paw, Play dead, roll over, which are completely unecessary. How many people groom their pets over and over that it's abuse to them!

She died of a brain tumour and I miss her so much. I was a good owner, maybe my methods weren't the best, but they stuck. I didn't wallop her every time she didn't do something. I may of been a tiny bit rough, but it did no harm to her. I brought her to the vets every 6 months, and he said that we were very close and she was in perfect health. Everyone who has me down as a monster, I can assure you I am not.

IvySlayer wrote: »

My dog could sit, heel, go outside, and into her bed at a command. .

I think you'll find that most people who are posting here have now, or did have a dog who would carry out those commands without them having to bully them.

IvySlayer wrote: »

I never hit her for that, as I have stated I hit her once when she bit me, it was bloody painful and she needed to learn that it was completely unacceptable!

Yes maybe that was necessary, but your other methods are not. Biting is completly unacceptable.

IvySlayer wrote: »

How many people leave their dogs in their houses unattended for all hours? ..etc

you're right, cruelty goes beyond bullying. It still does not make it the right way to go about it.

For the record, I'm a fan of treating a dog as a dog. Humanising a dog too much I would imagine, confuses them. But dogs don't yell at each other. In fact a dog knows another dog is serious when the voice is lowered (low growl)

IvySlayer wrote: »

She died of a brain tumour and I miss her so much. I was a good owner, maybe my methods weren't the best..... Everyone who has me down as a monster, I can assure you I am not.

I'm sorry to hear that. We all have a pet in our past who meant a lot to us and it's very hard to loose them. I don't doubt you're a responsible owner, but why not try gentler methods with your next pet.

Whispered · 03-12-2008 03:50PM

Mairt wrote: »

We're not even allowed do that to recruits in the Defence Forces anymore!.

Now, god be with the days :P

:eek: I know YOU!

IvySlayer · 03-12-2008 03:52PM

boomerang wrote: »

Three things that actually help improve your bond with your dog, open up a clear channel of communication and (in the case of training) stimulate his mind:
Grooming

Clicker training

Trick training

Trick training un-necessary, grooming abusive and clicker-training mental torture?

I'm sorry, but those views are so uneducated, I give up on this thread. I really do! Sure teaching your dogs tricks is un-necessary, but it gives your dog something to think about, it's an active way of spending time with your dog, and everytime he performs the trick, he gets food rewards and praise. What's wrong with that?

Edited to add: On a side note IvySlayer, if your dog came from Offaly, it couldn't possibly have come from the RSPCA. Was it the ISPCA?

I'm talking about OVER-grooming and such. And putting dogs in costumes they don't want to go in. I could let the list go on and on.

I just don't agree with tricks tbh. I engaged with her through play. Pulling rope, throwing a tennis ball, play chasing.

It was near 14 years ago when I got her, forgive me if I forget the name of the organisation. I got her in Dublin, but she came from a farm in Offlay.

Beth · 03-12-2008 04:04PM

helena.ryan wrote:

I think people are more taking issue with your general training methods of shoving, yelling, pushing, shouting (your words not mine) than that one incident.

I agree with Helena, from reading through the whole thread right now, its not that one incident - its the shouting and yelling to train that the OP mentioned in their methods post.

I've not had reason nor the mind to smack either of my two. I don't think I could do it. I want my dogs to trust me all of the time and my hands are their friends, not weapons. My hands give them lots of fab things like ear scratching, tummy rubs and produce treats magically when they're being really good

I've only used positive methods with them both (clicker training) and while they're not 100% obendient 100% of the time - thats not their fault, its mine for not having the time to religiously devote 15 mins 3 or 4 times a day each on just training (combine it with feeding, play, etc, thats a lot of hours when it adds up

) in among everything else.

I have made mistakes - on the introduction of the rottie (a new dog to the family) we started to use Amichien Bonding to try help .. we ended up with two depressed dogs that rarely wagged their tails. After 2 weeks of it, it was back to clicker training and marking the correct greetings between them, marking the good stuff and ignoring the bad stuff. It took a while to get them to trust us like they had done and was hard work, but worth it now to see the wagging tails and the happy carefree dogs.

But hitting? I see no place for it in training at all - there's no need when there are other ways to train a dog humanely using positive methods (not necessarily clicker training). There's many ways to train a dog to do a certain thing - not all methods work for every dog. But if someone has to resort to shouting and hitting to try teach a dog something, then the method they tried before isnt the most suitable and need to find another non-threatening positive way.

IvySlayer · 03-12-2008 04:09PM

Beth wrote: »

I agree with Helena, from reading through the whole thread right now, its not that one incident - its the shouting and yelling to train that the OP mentioned in their methods post.

I've not had reason nor the mind to smack either of my two. I don't think I could do it. I want my dogs to trust me all of the time and my hands are their friends, not weapons. My hands give them lots of fab things like ear scratching, tummy rubs and produce treats magically when they're being really good

I've only used positive methods with them both (clicker training) and while they're not 100% obendient 100% of the time - thats not their fault, its mine for not having the time to religiously devote 15 mins 3 or 4 times a day each on just training (combine it with feeding, play, etc, thats a lot of hours when it adds up ) in among everything else.

I have made mistakes - on the introduction of the rottie (a new dog to the family) we started to use Amichien Bonding to try help .. we ended up with two depressed dogs that rarely wagged their tails. After 2 weeks of it, it was back to clicker training and marking the correct greetings between them, marking the good stuff and ignoring the bad stuff. It took a while to get them to trust us like they had done and was hard work, but worth it now to see the wagging tails and the happy carefree dogs.

But hitting? I see no place for it in training at all - there's no need when there are other ways to train a dog humanely using positive methods (not necessarily clicker training). There's many ways to train a dog to do a certain thing - not all methods work for every dog. But if someone has to resort to shouting and hitting to try teach a dog something, then the method they tried before isnt the most suitable and need to find another non-threatening positive way.

I didn't hit my dog when training. I hit her because she bit me. And it did work.

Whispered · 03-12-2008 04:21PM

Are you only going to respond to posts which allow you to say "I didn't hit her while training, I only hit her because she bit me" ?

~Thalia~ · 03-12-2008 04:22PM

IvySlayer wrote: »

I didn't hit my dog when training. I hit her because she bit me. And it did work.

Ivy, I can't say I blame you for that, it's almost an unconscious reaction to being bitten.

Anyway, I am sorry to hear about your dog that passed on and I hope you are ok?

I don't think you sound like a cruel person at all and it's very clear from your posts that you loved your doggie very much, however, I think what people are trying to say is that you CAN achieve the same effect from your dogster without having to shout or push it around a bit.

I have never had to hit my dog, she will sit and stay no problem, heel and recall we are still working on

As for getting into her bed? Well, we have a press in the kitchen that has a child lock on it so when it's opened it clicks different to the presses that don't have the childlock. This is where we keep the dentastix. Magic knows she only gets a dentastix at night time just so now whenever she hears the press opening she heads straight for the bed without even being told, she's a cute hoor so she is.

Anyway, If you do get yourself another doggie I would urge you maybe to just try these ways of training rather than the others and see how it goes, you might be VERY surprised!

Oh and Mairt - On the other thread about a Pok attacking your bullies? I know EXACTLY what you mean. When the Westie attacked my GSD yer man looked at me as much as to say Jesus, what are you doing with that shark on a lead and his dog going mentalist to get at mine's throat! Some people!

Noopti · 03-12-2008 04:23PM

You still haven't explained the need to "shout" and "yell" commands? Would the dog not listen to you otherwise?

Also teaching dogs "tricks" is not in any way cruel. A dog absolutely loves and needs the mental stimulation of training. Whether that training is to sit or to give paw it doesn't matter to the dog, it is the mental stimulation that is important.

If you are training your dog to "give the paw" it isn't thinking "Oh for gods sake, what use is this to me?".
But if you are training it to sit and "yelling" at it, and shoving it, I can garuntee you it isn't enjoying it. And a dog should enjoy training.

Beth · 03-12-2008 04:35PM

IvySlayer wrote: »

I didn't hit my dog when training. I hit her because she bit me. And it did work.

WHERE in my post did I say YOU did hit your dog in training?

MissyN · 03-12-2008 04:42PM

IvySlayer I see you have another thread on getting advice as to whether or not you should get a new dog...I really hope you'll even consider what people have said here and stop using the shouting and yelling as training methods. My dog knows a lot of words but I've never shouted the words at her. You want your dog to have positive associations with learning new things but the thoughts of all the shouting makes me anxious and I'm only reading about it on your thread. I think its awful. Yelling is not going to make a dog trust you. You've come across so negatively and its all your own doing.

And we are all still waiting to read why you shout and yell in the first place.....

Our man in Havana · 04-12-2008 02:49AM

peasant wrote: »

I have three and there are times when I've had to raise my voice (read: let out an almighty roar) or stamp my feet to get their undivided attention. I've even had to "wade in" at some times and push/shove them around ...but the only time when I would ever hit a dog (and I haven't had to do so yet) is in self defence.

You try stopping 9 dogs who are fighting to the death with a roar! Amazingly when my rottie & my (now dead) lab trying to be top dog with the other at the time 8 dogs all varying in size from lab x Newfoundland, setter x ridge back & smaller terriers all attacking the rottie - that has always needed way more than a tap on the nose - I could of course not smacked & just waited till half were dead - in the situation which is cruel - me smacking & physically trying to separate the dogs or to sit there & wait till a victor emerged - hold on that would not work cause I don't like dog fights! If I did like dog fighting I could have made a ton of money - Max & Cassie had had many fights - 7 serious ones before this mighty fight. Very sad I feel very guilty but I could patch Max up knowing that the fights would not end

The last fight took over an hour to stop - & caused Cassie the rottie to have surgery & Max the lab sadly had to be PTS as a result of the injuries he sustained.

Now 99.9% of the time a simple barked command stops all 9 dogs thankfully & its very rare I have to discipline the dogs. Since Max has been gone we have only had 2 minor arguments.

If anyone dares to mention spay & neuter they will be banned - before anyone asks ALL my dogs/cats are blooming well spayed & neutered!

Noopti · 04-12-2008 09:33AM

Bond-007 wrote: »

You try stopping 9 dogs who are fighting to the death with a roar! Amazingly when my rottie & my (now dead) lab trying to be top dog with the other at the time 8 dogs all varying in size from lab x Newfoundland, setter x ridge back & smaller terriers all attacking the rottie - that has always needed way more than a tap on the nose - I could of course not smacked & just waited till half were dead - in the situation which is cruel - me smacking & physically trying to separate the dogs or to sit there & wait till a victor emerged - hold on that would not work cause I don't like dog fights! If I did like dog fighting I could have made a ton of money - Max & Cassie had had many fights - 7 serious ones before this mighty fight. Very sad I feel very guilty but I could patch Max up knowing that the fights would not end

The last fight took over an hour to stop - & caused Cassie the rottie to have surgery & Max the lab sadly had to be PTS as a result of the injuries he sustained.

Now 99.9% of the time a simple barked command stops all 9 dogs thankfully & its very rare I have to discipline the dogs. Since Max has been gone we have only had 2 minor arguments.

If anyone dares to mention spay & neuter they will be banned - before anyone asks ALL my dogs/cats are blooming well spayed & neutered!

Very sorry to hear about Max.
But with so many fights, and by the sounds of things quite serious fights, did you ever wonder if you had too many dogs to handle? Not trying to pass judgement, just a question.

ecaf · 04-12-2008 11:17AM

I have read through parts of this post, I would just like to say that there is a difference between cruelty and teaching/learning.
I don't think a tap on the nose equates to cruelty, someone said previously that the top dog in a pack will growl or bit another dog to put it back in line, and the OP said that his friends dog was growling at the owner when they were trying to teach him to walk properly. To me the tap on the nose just shows the dog that you are the top dog and he should listen to your commands. Although I don't think there is a need to do it on every dog or all of the time.

I have only tapped my dog like this once, I didn't hurt the dog but made her stop and listen.
I have been to dog training classes, and I think it is more about training me to give clear and concise commands to the dog.
She sits, she stays (sometimes - but she's only turning 1 year so I don't mind that too much), she walks to heal.

My commands inside are not shouting at her, for anyone who knows cocker spaniels they are quite mad and always rushing around, so sometimes it is hard to get her attention, i.e. she doesn't sit still for long. But the words (not sure how you spell it) but AhAh as in No (what you would say to a child), that stops her doing stuff she shouldn't. Even a short loud Ah is enough at times.

She also understands NO, which is said in a deep voice, and if she's pushing it then it might be JAAADE (Jade but low and dragged out).
When she's going to bed the other dog mostly obeys 'into bed', but the pup likes messing around, mostly she will do it, but other times she wants to play can't catch me. I stand at the door of the bed and tell her into bed, she comes over slowly still messing, I just say NOW in a deep voice, we get there eventually, no pulling or dragging.
I stand in the one place and tell her what I want, she knows exactly what I mean, but pups will be pups.

I suppose I agree with the OP to a certain extent, but I don't need to shout at my dogs, in the field they obey a dog whistle and come back to me.
In around the house I just speak to them in a normal voice. If they don't obey I lower my voice and try to just stick to single words so that there is no confusion, it's kind of:this is what I want you to do and I mean it.
I don't have to pull or drag them around, I have lifted the pup outside when she wouldn't go out, but I try to combine it with the word OUT, and after several times of me going in and out to try and show her, and calling her from outside the door.

I think patience and persistence is the key, shouting at them and pushing pulling them confuses them more, because they are not sure what you want or what they have done wrong.
In our dog training classes we thought them the basics with treats and you are told to practise it a few times a day until you have achieved it, you can then reduce the amount of times you treat them and eventually cut out the treats altogether. I try not to treat them every time for basic commands, but reward them in other ways like a rub on the head or tummy and 'good girl'.
We were also thought to make them understand the word NO when they haven't done the command correctly, followed by the command again - like SIT and then Good Girl + treat immediately when their bum hits the ground.
Same with HEAL, if they walked in front or tugged, NO + tug them back + stop, then HEAL again and walk. Repeated a few times all dogs in the class had grasped what was required of them. Of course you had to go home and practise this afterwards.

Morganna · 04-12-2008 11:38AM

Ivy slayer who gave you the lessons in dog training.?I am in my 50s now and was training dogs from a cjhild we have worked dogs in obedience and tv work and exhibited dogs at shows.You give a dog a command and then you follow through show the dog what you want you dont give the command and if the dog doesnt do it you DONT GIVE THE COMMAND LOUDER .You put the dog in for example the sit.You never train through fear .Yes i believe that we should be Alpha with our dogs but i dont condone the way you are doing it .I would say get a book on training dogs by Barbara woodhouse .she was the greatest dog trainer ever .

Our man in Havana · 04-12-2008 02:08PM

Noopti wrote: »

Very sorry to hear about Max.
But with so many fights, and by the sounds of things quite serious fights, did you ever wonder if you had too many dogs to handle? Not trying to pass judgement, just a question.

Yes, but as there are all rescues what do I do with them? No one wanted them so I took them in. People dumped them on my doorstep and drove off. These dogs were abused, starved and thrown from moving cars. Dog warden was no use he would not take them. What am I supposed to do? Keep them for a while and then throw them out?

As they get older and they die naturally the dog numbers will reduce. Max was the problem he had a brain tumour and since he left there have been no problems.

Whispered · 04-12-2008 02:20PM

Bond-007 wrote: »

Yes, but as there are all rescues what do I do with them? No one wanted them so I took them in. People dumped them on my doorstep and drove off. These dogs were abused, starved and thrown from moving cars. Dog warden was no use he would not take them. What am I supposed to do? Keep them for a while and then throw them out? .

This seems to be a problem, once people know you take in animals, everyone in your area starts ringing you and showing up on your doorstep. I had one incident where a vet in the locality told one of his customers to drop her dog down to me if she was trying to rehome it, apparently I would take it. Whatever about other people, but an animal professional :mad:

Doesn't the dog warden have to take stray dogs? Although fair play for hanging onto them, we all know what would happen in the pound.

Noopti · 04-12-2008 02:27PM

Bond-007 wrote: »

Yes, but as there are all rescues what do I do with them? No one wanted them so I took them in. People dumped them on my doorstep and drove off. These dogs were abused, starved and thrown from moving cars. Dog warden was no use he would not take them. What am I supposed to do? Keep them for a while and then throw them out?

As they get older and they die naturally the dog numbers will reduce. Max was the problem he had a brain tumour and since he left there have been no problems.

Good on ya for taking them in!

woofie87 · 04-12-2008 02:42PM

Ivy Slayer, you are a good dog owner and occasional tap (to correct bad behaviour) on the nose and raised voice is not animal abuse!!!! Starving your dog, kicking and punching, leaving it outside in the freezing cold without a shelter is (see: Animal Cops programmes, or any SPCA newsletters)!!!!! You had a great relationship with your previous dog ( sorry to hear your about her passing away, by the way) and you are a good responsible dog owner. I think a little bit of perspective would not go amiss. Dogs are smart, and if you do not make sure they know you are the boss of them they defo try to be the boss of you! How many times have you seen programmes on people in desparation as their spoiled, misbehaving dogs are making their lives miserables ( see: Dog Borstal). Dogs are different, just like people. For some positive reinforcement and a treat is enough to see what behavious is expected and what is unacceptable. For some a different approach need to be taken - and if that means a smack for repeated misbehaviour after postive reinforcement did not work or raising your voice to get attention- then be it. I have two rascals running around the house playing rough with each other loudly, and sometimes ( again for those who will start now accusing me of dog abuse, only only sometimes) only a shout or a smack will bring some peace to my household. Does that make me a bad owner? Dont think so, i love them dearly ( and they know it) , took one of the street starving and neglected and the other from the pound, gave them a loving warm home with the most comfortable beds and best food i can get, walk them 3 times a day on the fields, bring them to the vet, etc.... As far as i can see, they are in doggie heaven after what they have been through.

Whispered · 04-12-2008 03:24PM

woofie87 wrote: »

Ivy Slayer, you are a good dog owner and occasional tap (to correct bad behaviour) on the nose and raised voice is not animal abuse!!!! Starving your dog, kicking and punching, leaving it outside in the freezing cold without a shelter is (see: Animal Cops programmes, or any SPCA newsletters)!!!!! You had a great relationship with your previous dog ( sorry to hear your about her passing away, by the way) and you are a good responsible dog owner. I think a little bit of perspective would not go amiss. Dogs are smart, and if you do not make sure they know you are the boss of them they defo try to be the boss of you! How many times have you seen programmes on people in desparation as their spoiled, misbehaving dogs are making their lives miserables ( see: Dog Borstal). Dogs are different, just like people. For some positive reinforcement and a treat is enough to see what behavious is expected and what is unacceptable. For some a different approach need to be taken - and if that means a smack for repeated misbehaviour after postive reinforcement did not work or raising your voice to get attention- then be it. I have two rascals running around the house playing rough with each other loudly, and sometimes ( again for those who will start now accusing me of dog abuse, only only sometimes) only a shout or a smack will bring some peace to my household. Does that make me a bad owner? Dont think so, i love them dearly ( and they know it) , took one of the street starving and neglected and the other from the pound, gave them a loving warm home with the most comfortable beds and best food i can get, walk them 3 times a day on the fields, bring them to the vet, etc.... As far as i can see, they are in doggie heaven after what they have been through.

I'm getting very frustrated with this conversation - mainly due to responses like this. People appear to be reading only what they want to read and responding to that. So I'm bowing out, I'm getting sick of seeing the same point being repeated; that it is not necessary to TRAIN a dog by shouting, only to have people respond by saying "he only hit the dog once, or "I shout at my dogs when they misbehave" misbehaving and trying to learn a new command are two completly different things. Nobody, but the people trying to defend his "teaching methods" seem to be getting this confused. The man thought his dog to sit by "looking scary" yelling sit at her, (she had never heard it before) and then "getting rough" at her for not doing it. Seriously, you can't see the lack of sense there? He taught her to go to bed by "dragging her" and again shouting bed.

A warning shout like - quiet, or NO, when your dog does something unacceptable is necessary. Teaching them by shouting is not.

EDIT: pointing out "knowledge" from TV really does nothing to prove any particular point.

Noopti · 04-12-2008 03:47PM

woofie87 wrote: »

Ivy Slayer, you are a good dog owner and occasional tap (to correct bad behaviour) on the nose and raised voice is not animal abuse!!!! Starving your dog, kicking and punching, leaving it outside in the freezing cold without a shelter is (see: Animal Cops programmes, or any SPCA newsletters)!!!!! You had a great relationship with your previous dog ( sorry to hear your about her passing away, by the way) and you are a good responsible dog owner. I think a little bit of perspective would not go amiss. Dogs are smart, and if you do not make sure they know you are the boss of them they defo try to be the boss of you! How many times have you seen programmes on people in desparation as their spoiled, misbehaving dogs are making their lives miserables ( see: Dog Borstal). Dogs are different, just like people. For some positive reinforcement and a treat is enough to see what behavious is expected and what is unacceptable. For some a different approach need to be taken - and if that means a smack for repeated misbehaviour after postive reinforcement did not work or raising your voice to get attention- then be it. I have two rascals running around the house playing rough with each other loudly, and sometimes ( again for those who will start now accusing me of dog abuse, only only sometimes) only a shout or a smack will bring some peace to my household. Does that make me a bad owner? Dont think so, i love them dearly ( and they know it) , took one of the street starving and neglected and the other from the pound, gave them a loving warm home with the most comfortable beds and best food i can get, walk them 3 times a day on the fields, bring them to the vet, etc.... As far as i can see, they are in doggie heaven after what they have been through.

That's fair enough. However I think the issue people have is that it comes across that his standard training regime involves shouting, yelling and shoving. It didn't come across like these were last resorts, as in your example.

The Sweeper · 04-12-2008 09:42PM

Bond-007 wrote: »

You try stopping 9 dogs who are fighting to the death with a roar! Amazingly when my rottie & my (now dead) lab trying to be top dog with the other at the time 8 dogs all varying in size from lab x Newfoundland, setter x ridge back & smaller terriers all attacking the rottie - that has always needed way more than a tap on the nose - I could of course not smacked & just waited till half were dead - in the situation which is cruel - me smacking & physically trying to separate the dogs or to sit there & wait till a victor emerged - hold on that would not work cause I don't like dog fights! If I did like dog fighting I could have made a ton of money - Max & Cassie had had many fights - 7 serious ones before this mighty fight. Very sad I feel very guilty but I could patch Max up knowing that the fights would not end

The last fight took over an hour to stop - & caused Cassie the rottie to have surgery & Max the lab sadly had to be PTS as a result of the injuries he sustained.

Now 99.9% of the time a simple barked command stops all 9 dogs thankfully & its very rare I have to discipline the dogs. Since Max has been gone we have only had 2 minor arguments.

If anyone dares to mention spay & neuter they will be banned - before anyone asks ALL my dogs/cats are blooming well spayed & neutered!

That's a horrible situation to be in. Wading into the middle of that physically would be a very bad idea - even if you had the urge to - because you almost certainly will be bitten yourself.

Hitting one dog also won't work, because their adrenaline is up and they barely feel it tbh.

My personal experience, the only thing that works in a situation like that is the garden hose. Pressure hose, with a trigger handle on it - you use it from a distance, and turn the tap on full so you get a lot of pressure so the dog notices it when you turn the water on them. The distance keeps you safe, the water splits them apart. You end up with a bunch of very wet dogs, but it should allow you to isolate them from each other without getting bitten yourself.

Sigma Force · 05-12-2008 12:52AM

Back to the Ops post which is about just the one dog that is causing a problem for their owner. This is one dog where the owner can give the dog one on one training using posative training techniques there are a number of dog trainers and I would urge the OP to urge their friend to contact one of the dog trainers that use humane methods of training.
The problems OPs friend is having are common and training will most certainly work but only if the friend is willing to put in the time.

Find out what the dog response to posatively eg if the dog loves food then use food as a reward for good behaviour, if the dog loves a certain toy use that as a reward or if the dog loves praise just use praise.
If the OPs friend is willing to put in the time and effort into posative training then they will end up with a really lovely dog that is a pleasure to take anywhere.

ODD-JOB · 06-12-2008 06:04PM

The term Dominance is used in relation to 2 or more familiar individuals.
It's measured as one's ability to win a contest without an escalated fight.
When a dog fights , its because a relationship has not been established.

The subordinate living with the dominant shouldnt suffer social stress once the stamp is sealed.

boomerang · 06-12-2008 10:00PM

A timely statement from the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviour.

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%20statement.pdf

Thanks to Dog Training Ireland for the link.

CallieO · 07-12-2008 11:37PM

Oh dear....

If we take on the dog then we are responsible for its place in the pack/society.
Now if this society includes other animals children people then the dog HAS to know the rules.

As pack leader you have to earn respect - if that really really needs a tap on the nose - then that is better than a prolonged drawn out adolescent descent into unacceptable behaviour?

Hell I have saluki????:D:D

ODD-JOB · 08-12-2008 02:53PM

http://www.wildcast.net/2006/11/26/wild-dogs-maintain-pack-cohesion-video/

animalcrazy · 08-12-2008 06:06PM

I just read through this now and can't understand why you feel you need to train your dog through aggresion, when you can train them through love and get the same or even better results, and a strong loving bond with your dog. When I was training my dog I would say a firm sit, I wouldn't shout at her, just in a normal tone. If she did it I'd say 'good girl' in a high voice like when talking to a baby and pet her all over and give her a treat. Her tail would be wagging and she'd be happy to do it again. If she didn't do it I'd say 'no' in a low voice but not threatening, give her no treat and try again. She soon learned the difference between the high voice with ment good and the low one which ment bad. No need for shouting, dragging, or shoving

ODD-JOB · 08-12-2008 07:54PM

When discipline is necessary :

Situation is as follows, an adult tries to take food from 2 of the lowest ranking pups in the pack. the pups are just offspring from the lowest ranking adult B.B.

Pups get priority for feed , then yearlings , then adults....... in that respective order

The Alpha's always on hand to keep the social system in order. This is how bad behaviour is dealt with by nature.
The offender will not suffer any further social stress from the pack there-after.
http://www.wildcast.net/2006/11/24/wild-dogs-discipline-in-the-ranks-video/

peasant · 08-12-2008 09:39PM

Odd-job

You DO realize that there is a massive difference between a a pack of wild African dogs that is inter-related and has to rely on each other for food and survival and a bunch of related humans with one or more well fed pet dog(s)?

Because your dog(s) sure do(es)

Difference between cruelty and learning.

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