Difference between cruelty and learning.

IvySlayer

OK,

I was walking with a friend of mine and her dog. She has a male black labrador, about 8 months old. He's out of control, she asked me for advice on how to handle him. I assumed she was exaggerating. Oh this thing was wild. Rang her doorbell he went nuts, barked at me, which is probably normal because he's protecting his territory and I've never met him before.

Most owners would say 'Bed!' or a simple 'Shut up!' and the dog would calm down. Whatever my friend is doing, she's doing it wrong. After a struggle she got the lead on him and we went for a walk by the river in Lucan.

On the lead he's always running around, takes her for walk. I started saying how she should teach him the heel commands and such. However she says if she tried to teach he would ignore her or, alarmingly, growl at her. Enough is enough I said, dogs need to learn their place in the family, i.e lower than humans.

She agreed he needed training and we set about to do it at that moment. She dragged him closer and shouted 'Heel'! The dog, Bruno, was having none of it. In fact he started growling and snapping at her. I got worried so I approached him and gave him a slap on the nose. It wasn't too hard. And he gave a small yelp. Immediately, he backed down. He learned that is not allowed. He know nows what would happen if he did it again.

As a pack animal this is how they learn from their superiors. Laura, my friend, was still a bit afriad of the dog so I held her and we both approached Bruno, slowly. He started licking me, classic sign of dominance. Of course, another woman approached me and started calling me all sorts of things. Saying how I was cruel to animals, surprise surprise, she wasn't a dog owner.

Now, training dogs is not easy. I trained my dog. I never hit her if she didn't do it, I hit her when she bit me as a pup, after that she learned I was the boss and never needed to teach her again. Training her to sit and such I had to push her back down and yell 'Sit!', and drag her outside when I said 'Out!' and of course lifted her into her bed when I wanted to teach her the Bed command.

I don't hit unless it's necessary, and by necessary I mean when the dog is getting violent. I think this is the best approach. Some may disagree, but look at Bruno, he's much better, although I have to teach him that Laura is the boss not me. I have stages in dog obedience.

1. Say the command, if he does not respond, say it louder.
2. Stand up straight and look as big as you can (if only this could apply for other things ) to try and scare the dog a little.
3. Get rough, I don't mean inflict pain, if he doesn't respond push him or drag him into his bed until he learns.
4. Still won't respond, gentle tap on the nose. Although be careful to distungish that the dog is being disobidient rather than he doesn't know what to do.

I hate animal cruelty, but hitting a dog, in some cases, is needed and justified.

Our man in Havana

Ok - I can see this thread turning nasty! Just a quick warning - anyone starts having a go & I will get the ban hammer out!

I will say I kinda agree with the OP - I have 9 dogs & at times they will only do as commanded when given a smack - I hate animal abuse of any kind & do not think that one off smacks when needed do any harm - I am talking a tap not punching or kicking animals!

We can debate in this thread what is considered animal abuse. but no nastiness PLEASE!

Sigma Force

OP Hitting a dog is simply not on, it's not the way to train a dog properly. Teaching a dog to understand who's boss is one thing but teaching a dog through fear or pain is another.
Contact a profesional dog trainer who uses humane methods only, these kinds of problems are common there's a list of dog trainers on irishanimals.ie have heard good things about dog training ireland as well.

Seriously get the proffesionals in before the dog is driven to do more damage because the owner is clueless. The owner needs to be trained as much as the dog.

IvySlayer

Guineapigrescue wrote: »

OP Hitting a dog is simply not on, it's not the way to train a dog properly. Teaching a dog to understand who's boss is one thing but teaching a dog through fear or pain is another.
Contact a profesional dog trainer who uses humane methods only, these kinds of problems are common there's a list of dog trainers on irishanimals.ie have heard good things about dog training ireland as well.

Seriously get the proffesionals in before the dog is driven to do more damage because the owner is clueless. The owner needs to be trained as much as the dog.

As a dog owner, I use my methods. So far they have not failed me. There are some people who will take it too far, but I feel what I did, and do, is the best way.

IvySlayer

Bond-007 wrote: »

Ok - I can see this thread turning nasty! Just a quick warning - anyone starts having a go & I will get the ban hammer out!

I will say I kinda agree with the OP - I have 9 dogs & at times they will only do as commanded when given a smack - I hate animal abuse of any kind & do not think that one off smacks when needed do any harm - I am talking a tap not punching or kicking animals!

We can debate in this thread what is considered animal abuse. but no nastiness PLEASE!

Thank you, I believe most dog owners will see my point of view. I will never kick a dog or punch one. I remember there was a family across my road who abused their dogs and I called the RSPCA who took them away.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Wow, here I am. Feeling lousy because I smacked Ruby (six month old Staff pup) a few minutes ago, wondering should I post a similar thread and I find this one.

Basically she bit me on the face, now believe me - a six month old Staffie knows how to bite and this bloody hurt. In a temper I drew out and smacked her on top of the head, now she's sulking and giving me pitiful looks.

Anyway, as regards hitting your dog to teach it a lession, personally I think it works but because I'm a large & pretty assertive guy I tend to go extra gentle because I know I'm intimidating just raising my voice. But to get a dog to toe the line, sure a smack works and works well in most cases.

Spare the rod and spoil the child kind of thing.

But I'd hate to think of a dog thats routinely hit, that IMO is abuse.

boomerang

scaring... slapping... hitting... dragging... pushing... forcing...

All your own vocabulary, and all forms of animal cruelty, IMO.

IvySlayer, your post has left me stunned and speechless. This is dog training from the dark ages... I only wish you were a troll! You obviously are "self-taught." Your theories on dog training social hierarchies and dominance/aggression are so poorly researched and so full of holes, it's giving me a headache.

The dog does not speak English. If you are introducing a new command and he doesn't immediately "get" what it is you're asking of him, saying it louder is not going to help him understand you better. And to escalate from there to being "rough" and scaring the dog... How is this an effective method of teaching a dog anything? Think of yourself as a school teacher and the dog as a pupil... How do pupils learn most effectively?

Teacher A puts the pupils under a lot of pressure to get things right and shows no mercy if they don't perform. If they give the wrong answer, Teacher A shouts at them or gives them a slap or a poke. The pupils learn to fear the teacher and are immediately on edge when the teacher is around. They are anxious to give the right answers but find it hard to concentrate and perform because they are so pressurised and afraid to say the wrong thing.

Teacher B has a warm, respectful and co-operative approach with the pupils, while instilling the pupils with a clear sense of boundaries. He is firm but fair. Teacher B is patient, and rewards lavishly when the pupils succeed in learning something new, or accomplish a task successfully for the first time. The pupils enjoy Teacher B's fun approach and look forward to Teacher B's classes.

Now you tell me, which approach works best? Because you sound like Teacher A to me and I feel damn sorry for your dog - or any dog - that you inflict your idea of dog training on. Have you ever been to a dog training class? Because even the most backwards trainer would not carry on in the manner you suggest, as he/she would be rightfully lambasted for it.

IvySlayer

boomerang wrote: »

IvySlayer, your post has left me stunned and speechless. This is dog training from the dark ages... I only wish you were a troll! You obviously are "self-taught." Your theories on dog training social hierarchies and dominance/aggression are so poorly researched and so full of holes, it's giving me a headache.

The dog does not speak English. If you are introducing a new command and he doesn't immediately "get" what it is you're asking of him, saying it louder is not going to help him understand you better. And to escalate from there to being "rough" and scaring the dog... How is this an effective method of teaching a dog anything? Think of yourself as a school teacher and the dog as a pupil... How do pupils learn most effectively?

Teacher A puts the pupils under a lot of pressure to get things right and shows no mercy if they don't perform. If they give the wrong answer, Teacher A shouts at them or gives them a slap or a poke. The pupils learn to fear the teacher and are immediately on edge when the teacher is around. They are anxious to give the right answers but find it hard to concentrate and perform because they are so pressurised and afraid to say the wrong thing.

Teacher B has a warm, respectful and co-operative approach with the pupils, while instilling the pupils with a clear sense of boundaries. He is firm but fair. Teacher B is patient, and rewards lavishly when the pupils succeed in learning something new, or accomplish a task successfully for the first time. The pupils enjoy Teacher B's fun approach and look forward to Teacher B's classes.

Now you tell me, which approach works best? Because you sound like Teacher A to me and I feel damn sorry for your dog - or any dog - that you inflict your idea of dog training on. Have you ever been to a dog training class? Because even the most backwards trainer would not carry on in the manner you suggest, as he/she would be rightfully lambasted for it.

There is a massive difference between a child and a dog. You are the master, the top dog, not a teacher. Are you saying if a dog starts trying to attack someone you will spoil the dog with treats and toys?

Name your experience of training your dog. I am very interested to hear your methods. I have hit my dog, once, when she bit me, she never did it again. And I never hit her again. And she lived to be 14. She was not afraid of me, we played a lot, walked a lot, she slept on my bed.

Hitting a dog constantly is not on, but a gentle slap on the nose, that would get his attention.

boomerang

A gentle slap on the nose is one thing, but basing your whole training philosophy on brute force and ignorance is quite another! Where are you picking up all these outdated ideas about the human-dog relationship?

And please, I used the teacher/pupil concept by way of analogy, not comparison! :rolleyes:

I'm bowing out early now as I can see any attempt to reason with you would be a complete waste of my time.

Goodbye and good luck.

IvySlayer

boomerang wrote: »

A gentle slap on the nose is one thing, but basing your whole training philosophy on brute force and ignorance is quite another! Where are you picking up all these outdated ideas about the human-dog relationship?

And please, I used the teacher/pupil concept by way of analogy, not comparison! :rolleyes:

I'm bowing out early now as I can see any attempt to reason with you would be a complete waste of my time.

Goodbye and good luck.

I asked a question about your dog/training methods, I see no answer. Criticise mine if you wish, but let's have a respectable debate about training methods like a bunch of adults.

boomerang

Lovely! Let's hear your credentials first then, seeing as you started the thread?

IvySlayer

OK here goes.

I don't have any awards or anything but just like any dog owner, or parent, you learn as you go along.

Sit! - Patches, my dog, her first command was to sit. We got some some treats from the pet shop to aid her. So I put her in the kitchen with me and put her in a sitting position and I shouted Sit! After a few minutes she got the message. For the rest of her life she sat when she was told to.

Out! - When I wanted her to go outside, or out of the room for whatever reason, I picked her up and placed her outside. I shouted out everytime I did it, she learned it pretty quickly.

Bed! - I picked her up and put her in her bed and shoute bed until she learned it.

Heel! - Bit difficult but if she attempted to stray away from me I would pull her back with the lead, rough yes, but she learned I was stronger than her and there was no point in her trying to dictate the route.

Biting - Yes she bit me on the finger and I hit her, not too hard though. Did she ever do it again? No. Did I ever hit her again? No.

Didn't need to teach her anything else. I'm such a cruel man!

The Sweeper

Dude, you shout a lot. What do you fall back on when a shout doesn't work?

biko

I think that mimicking the behaviour of the mother/father dog/cat is ok. Animals will use a small amount of force to assert themselves.
AFAIK the mother/father will bite down on the scruff of the neck of the puppy/kitten to show who's boss and so it should be ok for an owner.

When my kittens try to get up onto the kitchen table I will push them back down onto a chair. This way they'll learn it's not ok to go on the table (well, at least when I in the room ) . Now they have come to the point they'll put a paw on the table and then look at me. If I move closer they move down again.
I also use lemon wipes before and after dinner to wipe the table, apparently cats don't like the smell of citrus (doesn't seem to work work on mine though).

Now, how to stop them from climbing up my legs with their sharp little claws...

peasant

boomerang is spot on.

Dog training should contain actual elements of "training" and not just bullying and intimidation.

@IvySlayer
There is a massive difference between a tyrant and a leader. I hope for your sake that you never meet the wrong kind of dog ...your reign of terror might come to a swift end if you tried your practices on a strong, self assured dog.


pls allow me to quote myself from an old thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=53228774&postcount=15

Whispered

IvySlayer wrote: »

OK,
It wasn't too hard. And he gave a small yelp.

Training her to sit and such I had to push her back down and yell 'Sit!', and drag her outside when I said 'Out!' and of course lifted her into her bed when I wanted to teach her the Bed command.

I don't hit unless it's necessary, and by necessary I mean when the dog is getting violent. I think this is the best approach. Some may disagree, but look at Bruno, he's much better, although I have to teach him that Laura is the boss not me. I have stages in dog obedience.

1. Say the command, if he does not respond, say it louder.
2. Stand up straight and look as big as you can (if only this could apply for other things ) to try and scare the dog a little.
3. Get rough, I don't mean inflict pain, if he doesn't respond push him or drag him into his bed until he learns.
4. Still won't respond, gentle tap on the nose. Although be careful to distungish that the dog is being disobidient rather than he doesn't know what to do.
.

I have 3 pups for 1 week, they know the bed command, outside command, are well on the way to learning sit and one of them is fetching. No shouting, pushing, yelling or dragging. :eek: I find the key is to let the dog know that when they please you something good will happen. Whether thats a treat, cuddle, toy. Gently show them a few times what you want, they will do it, because they want to please you. Not because you are "the boss" or because they fear you. Sometimes a slap might be warranted - as in Mairts case, or even your case with a friends dog. But the rest of your post just seems OTT.

IvySlayer wrote: »

As a dog owner, I use my methods. So far they have not failed me. There are some people who will take it too far, but I feel what I did, and do, is the best way.

Yes and some people feel that wiping a dogs nose in it's own excrement is a way of toilet training.

IvySlayer wrote: »

OK here goes.

I don't have any awards or anything but just like any dog owner, or parent, you learn as you go along.

Sit! - Patches, my dog, her first command was to sit. We got some some treats from the pet shop to aid her. So I put her in the kitchen with me and put her in a sitting position and I shouted Sit! After a few minutes she got the message. For the rest of her life she sat when she was told to.

Out! - When I wanted her to go outside, or out of the room for whatever reason, I picked her up and placed her outside. I shouted out everytime I did it, she learned it pretty quickly.

Bed! - I picked her up and put her in her bed and shoute bed until she learned it.

Heel! - Bit difficult but if she attempted to stray away from me I would pull her back with the lead, rough yes, but she learned I was stronger than her and there was no point in her trying to dictate the route.

Biting - Yes she bit me on the finger and I hit her, not too hard though. Did she ever do it again? No. Did I ever hit her again? No.

Didn't need to teach her anything else. I'm such a cruel man!

My methods?

SIT- get dogs attention with treat or toy, say (not yell) sit. Hold treat/toy over dogs head so they have to look up. Most will naturally sit, if not, gentle guidance as opposed to a push. 10 mins of doing this, most dogs will have an idea what is required and it doesn't take long to teach them to do it without a treat. (I'm still on the treat stage with mine)

OUT - go outside, call dog, dog follows, say outside. Change this to saying outside at the door then walking out, then change it by letting the dog out before you and saying outside.

BED - Walk to bed call dog, gently place dog in bed, say "bed", there is no need to shout, my dog is not deaf. I now have 3 little pups who will sit in their open crate for me while I cook/ clean because they know what bed means and they know when they are good they will get a treat. I have never raised my voice at them.

Heel - I have not done this yet. Any dog I have had has been too young to teach or else already knew.

Biting - Immediately stop play and ignore. It's the worst thing for a dog to have you in the room ignoring it. They will learn that biting causes you to ignore it and will stop.

If the dog is willing to please you that is. If not, you might need to shout, yell, push, shove, drag etc. But if you need to do this, you should question why.

IvySlayer wrote: »

I don't have any awards or anything

you don't?? :eek::P

biko wrote: »

I think that mimicking the behaviour of the mother/father dog/cat is ok. Animals will use a small amount of force to assert themselves.
AFAIK the mother/father will bite down on the scruff of the neck of the puppy/kitten to show who's boss and so it should be ok for an owner.

When my kittens try to get up onto the kitchen table I will push them back down onto a chair. This way they'll learn it's not ok to go on the table (well, at least when I in the room ) . Now they have come to the point they'll put a paw on the table and then look at me. If I move closer they move down again.
I also use lemon wipes before and after dinner to wipe the table, apparently cats don't like the smell of citrus (doesn't seem to work work on mine though).

Now, how to stop them from climbing up my legs with their sharp little claws...

Kittens are great.

Physical commands are fine, slapping and shouting is not really necessary IMO.

bigpinkelephant

IvySlayer wrote: »

You are the master, the top dog, not a teacher. Are you saying if a dog starts trying to attack someone you will spoil the dog with treats and toys?

Well when you are trying to TEACH the dog something then a TEACHER-child relationship is a good analogy.

IvySlayer wrote: »

I don't have any awards or anything

And you won't get any nominations with these "training" methods

IvySlayer wrote: »

I shouted Sit!

I picked her up and placed her outside. I shouted out everytime I did it, she learned it pretty quickly.

shoute bed until she learned it.

I would pull her back with the lead, rough yes, but she learned I was stronger than her and there was no point in her trying to dictate the route.

OP, I think you sound like a brute who bullies and frightens his dogs into doing as they are told.
Why do you have to shout from the very first time you are trying to teach the dog something?
If the dog knew the command well and deliberately disobedied you it would be one thing. But this is the FIRST time you're teaching the dog something and already the shouting starts.

wolfpawnat

Well lets see, where to start.

I agree that dominence has to be shown, in packs this is shown as the alpha biting the other dogs neck, now since I have not intention of ever biting a dog I came up with the say no firmly, show the dog your extended index finger and tap them on the nose with it, not too gentle they wont feel it, but never too hard! Now as adult dogs, if they misbehave, all I have to do is call their name firmly, say no and show them my index finger, as soon as I do this, they are by my side and behaving like angels!

I am training a guide dog puppy for a year at the moment, black lab mix and he is 7 months. He is boisterous and rough but we have been told that when he is tugging on the lead or snappy we tug firmly once(he has a halti/head collar) now obviously you can not pull too hard because you could snap his neck! but if the Irish Guide Dogs for the Blind give you instructions to assert dominence then they are the professionals.

Barking the commands at the dog doesn't help either! All it takes is teaching your dog what your tone of voice means, if you tell them to sit once and they disobey, make your voice firmer, they will then notice the firm voice and respond. I have only yelled at my dog once in 7 years, and that is when she was savaging my cats newborn kitten, and she ran under the table and was not seen properly again for 2 hours, only a nose would pop out every so often and as soon as I would say- not yell ahem, it would shoot back in again. We saved the kitten too!

The have independent thoughts to us so there are days, like children, they have their off days too.

The Sweeper

Cats - kittens - get a clean misting bottle (make sure there is no detergent left in it whatsoever) and fill with cold water. Set to mist, so it just gives out a fog and not a jet of water.

I use the 'NAH AH!' noise whenever one of the four 12-week-old kittens I currently live with oversteps the mark - and when it's a big overstep, they get a squirt (rare occurance). The sharp noise is enough - they find it offputting, in contrast to the usual calm and jolly chats we have.

That's all I need to do - and this is from someone whose adult cats know "in", "out", "no", "treat", the ridiculous cat calling noises that make up "come here" and - for at least one of them, "sit", "stay", "up" and "fetch". (Honestly. Though he'll only do those last ones for food.)

peasant

Bond-007 wrote: »

I will say I kinda agree with the OP - I have 9 dogs & at times they will only do as commanded when given a smack - I hate animal abuse of any kind & do not think that one off smacks when needed do any harm - I am talking a tap not punching or kicking animals!

I have three and there are times when I've had to raise my voice (read: let out an almighty roar) or stamp my feet to get their undivided attention. I've even had to "wade in" at some times and push/shove them around ...but the only time when I would ever hit a dog (and I haven't had to do so yet) is in self defence.

Honey-ec

Perish the day Cesar Milan ever got a slot on TV...

wolfpawnat

Honey-ec wrote: »

Perish the day Cesar Milan ever got a slot on TV...

I don't understand What do you mean?

doctor evil

boomerang wrote: »

scaring... slapping... hitting... dragging... pushing... forcing...

All your own vocabulary, and all forms of animal cruelty, IMO.

If you think thats cruelty you have lived a very sheltered life. Cruelty is what posters like Egar fight against each day.

One has to be very careful not to take words out of context.

hadook

doctor evil wrote: »

If you think thats cruelty you have lived a very sheltered life. Cruelty is what posters like Egar fight against each day.

In that context boomerang is a poster like EGAR.

In normal day to day training I've never had to slap my dogs, I rarely shout, I don't push, I don't drag and I don't force. They've learned everything I've wanted to teach them without resorting to violence in any way.

Of course there are times when I've yelled (and it's rare enough that it catches their attention straight away) and times when I've shoved the Dane in play but there's an obvious difference. There's no need to train through fear when you can do exactly the same thing without violence IMO.

cowzerp

Honey-ec wrote: »

Perish the day Cesar Milan ever got a slot on TV...

Cesar milan does not slap dogs on there noses, he gives pokes that distract the dog, these dont hurt and dont cause the dogs to whimper and run scared, his techniques are all about encou7ragement and building confidence.

OP, quit the shouting-you sound like a bully.

~Thalia~

Personally I would never slap my dog. Your hands should be seen as gentle, your hands are for petting and grooming, not hitting.
I would never hit my dog, expecially on the nose. There are other (better) ways of getting the message across to a dog.

arybvtcw0eolkf

~Thalia~ wrote: »

Personally I would never slap my dog. Your hands should be seen as gentle, your hands are for petting and grooming, not hitting.
I would never hit my dog, expecially on the nose. There are other (better) ways of getting the message across to a dog.

Twice I've hit my dogs, last night when Ruby bit my face I hit her. It was more a reaction to getting bitten, ie I didn't think that its what she deserved. And once I hit Richo and dragged him into the house by the scruff of the neck, why?.

There was a family on the road which he took a dislike to and would go ballistic when they went past the gate, well this was getting very worrying. Then one day he made a very serious attempted to get to them through the gates and I thought it was time for a tough lession.

It upset my kids to see me lose it and treat him like I did, until I explained that if that family made a complaint that there was a very serious risk of Jericho ('Richo) being taken off us and being PTS.

He hasn't done it since, so I think that sometimes tough love can work.

However, I'm NEVER get physical as part of my dogs training.

ISDW

I'm not going to get into the discussion about hitting a dog to teach them something, but can I please ask you NEVER to hit a dog on the nose. Their sense of smell is incredibly important to them, and if you damage that by hitting on the nose it can have a huge impact on their life. If you feel the need to hit, please use another part of their body.

leopardus

I have never felt the need to resort to physically reprimanding my dog, and I would question your insistence that it's a valuable training tool. I would strongly advise that you read up on modern training techniques and theory ("The Culture Clash" is great, if you can read it and still hold your opinions on training I would be stunned).
I try to give my dog near constant feedback on his actions, praise verbally and with treats if he's done something good, warn him verbally if it looks like he's going to do something unacceptable. If my dog does something I'm unhappy about I let him know, verbally. I shout in a deep growling voice and he knows what he's doing isn't big and isn't clever and he'd bettter stop it, NOW. If he does something that really isn't acceptable, I go nuts, make a complete fool of myself, come across as someone with serious anger-management problems. But I don't hit, lunge, grab or in anyway physically threaten the dog. Then it's over in a second and when he sits/ behaves he's praised and it's a lesson learned.

Sit! - Patches, my dog, her first command was to sit. We got some some treats from the pet shop to aid her. So I put her in the kitchen with me and put her in a sitting position and I shouted Sit! After a few minutes she got the message. For the rest of her life she sat when she was told to.

Your dog doesn't understand english! You shouted at your dog (which is unpleasant) until it produced a behaviour that resulted in you stopping shouting; this is negative reinforcement and is a relative poor training technique. I often find it hilarious when (some) friends and family try and get my dog to sit or lie. They shout. As if they're trying to intimidate him into producing the behaviour they desire. It doesn't work and invariably I will end up asking, in a normal tone, the dog to sit and he always does. He does this because he thinks that good things will happen if he does, because I used possitive reinforcement.

Biting - Yes she bit me on the finger and I hit her, not too hard though. Did she ever do it again? No. Did I ever hit her again? No.

My dog is an eight month begian shepherd and I'm reluctant to stop him biting me yet. One of the most important things that you teach your dog is bite inhibition, but before you teach the dog not to bite you have to give them as much feedback on jaw pressure as possible. i've always encouraged him to be as mouthy as he likes with me; chewing my hands if he wants. I also gave him bucket loads of feed back on whats acceptable and whats not; I became progressively less tolerant of the pressure he exerted. Letting him know when it 'hurt' by stoppping, yelping or 'growling'. He now has the most wonderfully soft mouth, even during boisterous play, tug of war, and I'm only now getting him to stop mouthing altogether. A dog which hasn't been able to develop this jaw sensitivity is a liability. It's jaws are like a mouse trap, it has only two settings. Don't bite and bite HARD. (Dr. Ian Dunbar has written some excellent articles and Chapters on this that are well worth checking out).

lightening

Yeah, I have had to slap my dog. On one occasion he somehow got out of his cage in the car and was jumping in my head as I drove on the motorway. I had to slap him to get him off me or have an accident.

So its cruelty to slap a dog or cruelty to have him (and me) mashed all over the motorway.

I went for the slap.

Didn't have any long term affects on him. Actually didn't have any short term affects on him apart from stopping him jump on my head.

cowzerp

lightening wrote: »

Yeah, I have had to slap my dog. On one occasion he somehow got out of his cage in the car and was jumping in my head as I drove on the motorway. I had to slap him to get him off me or have an accident.

So its cruelty to slap a dog or cruelty to have him (and me) mashed all over the motorway.

I went for the slap.

Didn't have any long term affects on him. Actually didn't have any short term affects on him apart from stopping him jump on my head.

Thats a seperate issue to hitting a dog in training.

lightening

cowzerp wrote: »

Thats a seperate issue to hitting a dog in training.

Yeah, stupid of me to post that up I suppose...

Noopti

I had to push her back down and yell 'Sit!'

put her in a sitting position and I shouted Sit!

I shouted out everytime I did it

put her in her bed and shoute bed until she learned it.

Thats a lot of "Yelling" and "Shouting". I think a revision of your training methods is needed.
Just because they "work" doesn't justify the action. If the world worked like that it would be a hell of a place to live.

boomerang

doctor evil wrote: »

If you think thats cruelty you have lived a very sheltered life. Cruelty is what posters like Egar fight against each day.

One has to be very careful not to take words out of context.

Cruelty has a broad spectrum. I've worked in animal rescue for six years now, so I think I know.

In the context of training, shouting, pulling, yelling, pushing, slapping are all cruel actions.

fatmammycat

My father trained working collies and I don't believe he ever resorted to slapping or yelling like a lunatic at them. And these dog were trained to round up cattle and be available to go where ever he was going at the drop of a hat, be it on the back of a trailer or over long distance-including roads-off lead and on foot.
I had a dobermann for years and a firm 'no' or 'leave' was all the admonishment he needed too. He wasn't the sort of dog who would respond to heavy handed treatment, being big, intelligent and naturally athletic.
I'm not saying someone who has given a dog a slap for unruly or dangerous behaviour is cruel, but as a training technique it strikes me as counter-productive.

peasant

boomerang wrote: »

In the context of training, shouting, pulling, yelling, pushing, slapping are all cruel actions.

Hmmmm .....

Correction is part of the training. I'd agree that pulling or slapping (or anything else that inflicts pain) is cruel, but anyone that has ever trained and corrected a dog will have raised their voice at it or perhaps given it a nudge.

Yes, it would be cruelty to just stand there and shout your dog down for minutes on end ...it would be cruel to push and shove it around also.

But to class all shouting/yelling/pushing as cruel is taking it a bit far IMO.

After all, dogs among each other correct each other with barks, growls, body blocks and tackles.

Noopti

fatmammycat wrote: »

My father trained working collies and I don't believe he ever resorted to slapping or yelling like a lunatic at them.

I can well believe that.
I find, as with most things, if someone has to resort to shouting or excessive actions it is because they are unable to get the job done properly through more "normal" means.

Noopti

peasant wrote: »

Hmmmm .....

Correction is part of the training. I'd agree that pulling or slapping (or anything else that inflicts pain) is cruel, but anyone that has ever trained and corrected a dog will have raised their voice at it or perhaps given it a nudge.

Yes, it would be cruelty to just stand there and shout your dog down for minutes on end ...it would be cruel to push and shove it around also.

But to class all shouting/yelling/pushing as cruel is taking it a bit far IMO.

After all, dogs among each other correct each other with barks, growls, body blocks and tackles.

From the OP's post I gathered that shouting and yelling seemed to be the standard way he trained his dogs. It is not necessary. A dog will respect and listen to a stern voice just as much as a shout or yell in my experience.

I agree, shouting isn't necessarily a cruel act, but it is certainly not necessary.

peasant

Noopti wrote: »

From the OP's post I gathered that shouting and yelling seemed to be the standard way he trained his dogs. It is not necessary. A dog will respect and listen to a stern voice just as much as a shout or yell in my experience.

I agree, shouting isn't necessarily a cruel act, but it is certainly not necessary.

Absolutely agreed

This is more of a hair-splitting excercise.

It is cruel and unneccessary to stand in front of your dog and shout/yell a command at it and expect it to learn something from it

It is pointless, counter-productive and borderline cruel to just continue shouting commands at your dog when it's obviously confused and doesn't know what to do.

But it may well be necessary to let out a quick yell/shout as a corrective measure if your dog is a bit away from you and trying to test out its boundaries by deliberatly disobeing your previous instruction

In all of the above cases someone might say "I shouted/yelled at my dog" but the implications (for the dog) would be vastly different.

bigpinkelephant

Similarly to another poster, I have 5 cats and I never have to raise voice nor hand to them.
If I shouted at them the first time I told them to do something, they would soon become afraid of me. Instead I have 5 well behaved cats who do as they are told without me having to behave like a brute, and who stop exactly what they are doing as soon as they hear a firm "No" or "Stop it".
Fear can cause a number of reactions in an animal, from cowering to wetting themselves to snapping, and some day I have a feeling the OP will shout at the wrong dog.
The OP has not said why his other dog bit him, it would be interesting to know.
It saddens me that someone sees shouting as a normal course of training.

boomerang

Agree with you on the hair-splitting, Peasant... As an individual act, to shout, shove, scare or slap a dog might be necessary in a given situation - say for instance, if your dog runs out into the road. But if these actions are the only tools in your training arsenal, then the training process is inherently cruel.

Can you imagine the results of such training on a sensitive breed like a pointer, setter or collie? They become cowering, quivering wrecks, so afraid to make a mistake that they shut down and won't respond at all.

peasant

boomerang wrote: »

....to shout, shove, scare or slap .......if these actions are the only tools in your training arsenal, then the training process is inherently cruel.

...and most likely futile

fatmammycat

Noopti wrote: »

I can well believe that.
I find, as with most things, if someone has to resort to shouting or excessive actions it is because they are unable to get the job done properly through more "normal" means.

Aye Noopti, he always said a nervous cattle dog wouldn't be a good cattle dog. Plus it wasn't his way. The dogs were devoted to him too. Just goes to show you can be the 'Alpha dog' without posturing or aggression.

Sigma Force

Can I just ask people to please please not hit their dog on the nose. Dog's noses are highly sensative and can be damaged. I know of one idiot dog owner in particular (not from the internet) that had a habit of hitting the dog on the nose on occasion and the dog ended up in the vets with severe nose bleeds.

I have seen mother cats slap their kittens but humans are way bigger and don't realise their own strenght.

I think people refer to kids and pets in the same light simply because esp. young kids don't always have a voice and can't fend for themselves of can't always speak up for themselves and neither can animals.

I have spent the passed 6 years bringing my rescue collie from a nervous wrek who peed when you even looked at her to a happy go lucky dog but she will never be 100% sound because for sure someone used shouting, hitting esp. her rear end as she used to be terrified if anyone went near even to brush her. Now she's happy for the dog groomer to groom her and empty her glands etc even jumps up on the grooming table..this took 5 years.
Simply because someone used forceful methods with her in the past.

If someone raised a hand to her now she would absolutely crumble.

I don't raise a hand to my dogs I've come too far and any time my dogs misbehave it's something I have done wrong not them.

What's that saying, your puppy misbehaves, so you must get yourself a newspaper or magazine, roll it up tightly and then hit yourself on the head with it.

If a dog is misbheaving it's something the owner is going wrong so why punish the dog for something that wasn't their fault that's just passing the blame onto someone who needs you to show them how to behave properly.

kazza23

I have 2 dogs. Millie is a pitbull and Sandy is a pom x terrier x fox type of dog lol.

Millie has "issues". She was dumped off a puppy farm when they had no further use for her, was completely emaciated and covered in pressure sores when I got her last year. She has OCD (continuously licks herself, me, the couches), some guarding, particularly when there's food involved, was not house trained when I got her, and had awful separation anxiety.

Sandy was hit by a car and broke his back leg just above and below the hip joint, before I took him in. He's a happy go lucky kind of a dog, completely hyper, but very gentle.

About 6 weeks ago I decided it was time to get some formal training for the 2 of them. I suspected that Millie would be the one that would cause me most grief, because of her "issues", and that Sandy would take to it like a duck to water.

WRONG!

The trainer suspects that Sandy was trained using punishment methods, such as those mentioned previously in the thread. As a result, for the first week he would do nothing except sit and was unwilling to try to do anything else, in case he got it wrong and was punished. It took a long time to get him used to the idea that he would be rewarded for getting it right, and the worst thing that would happen if he didn't get it right was that he wouldn't get the treat in my hand. A few weeks later and he is doing brilliantly, but it was really sad to see that the first couple of weeks.

Millie, on the other hand, would try anything to get the treat and was way ahead of Sandy for the first couple of weeks, although he has not caught up.

My (incredibly longwinded) point is.... it has been my experience that using punishment techniques in training actually slows the process down and is way less effective than positive reinforcement.

It's a bit like parents who hit their children. If you have to resort to hitting your child/dog to get them to do something, then IMHO you have failed yourself as a parent/dog owner.

A dog who is trained using positive reinforcement is a much happier dog in the long run.

merryhappy

cowzerp wrote: »

Cesar milan does not slap dogs on there noses, he gives pokes that distract the dog, these dont hurt and dont cause the dogs to whimper and run scared, his techniques are all about encou7ragement and building confidence.

Sorry but I just couldn't pass up the chance to post the following information about these so-called dog-training programmes:

1. Remember you are watching television. That means, at the very least, that you're not seeing training and results in real time. Any ill responses can be edited out. What looks in the program like it took mere minutes may actually have been edited down from hours of real time. Events may even be shown in an order other than what occurred in real life. Some of this may be done simply to meet time constraints, but other reasons could be less benign -- to make the star of the show look better, to imply that the technique being shown is faster/easier than it actually is, to omit anything producers would prefer viewers not see. Always keep in mind that television presents a skewed view of reality, partly from necessity and partly from motives of one sort or another.

2. Give some thought to any disclaimers or warnings the show may contain. Yes, we live in a litigious society and producers want to protect themselves, but if a dog training program is broadcast with the caveat "do not attempt this at home," then it isn't serving any real educational purpose. It's either nothing more than pure entertainment, or it's a purely commercial message masquerading as a regular show. Think about it -- if you aren't supposed to use the techniques being shown, what are you meant to get out of the show?

3. Turn off the sound so you don't hear what the trainer or the voiceover may be saying, and watch the body language of the dog. Make up your own mind about if the dog is enjoying the experience, if the dog is stressed, what you think the dog might be learning. Most programs repeat regularly, so watch the first time with the sound off, make note of your observations, then watch again with the volume up, and see how the show's version of what is happening agrees or disagrees with what you saw. Don't just assume that the trainer is right and you are wrong.

4. Ask yourself "is this something I want to do/would enjoy doing with my dog?" Unless your dog has serious behavioral issues (in which case you need face-to-face help from a behavior specialist), training should be enjoyable for both of you. If you don't like what you're doing, odds are you won't do it as often or as wholeheartedly as you should. Training works best in frequent short sessions, so you need to do it often. If you don't like what you're doing, that's not likely.

5. Don't be swayed by the physical appearance, voice, or "presence" of the show host. You may enjoy listening to him or watching her, but that has little to do with the effectiveness of the training. Watch the dog or, if the camera angle permits, watch the face of the owner as training is done to her or his dog. Do they look like they're enjoying the experience, or are they apprehensive or alarmed? Show hosts are chosen because producers expect the audience to like them and tune in to see them. That doesn't make them reputable experts.

6. Look for any follow-up information. Does the show go back and check in on how the dogs and owners are doing? Are the owners given any instructions for how to continue their training? Don't just assume that what may have looked like it worked in the show continued working indefinitely. Training is a fluid process that often requires ongoing adjustment.This is just a half dozen basic techniques for assessing what you're seeing. If you watch just to watch, it doesn't matter, but if you're thinking of applying anything you see on tv to your interactions with your own dog, please take the time to give it some serious thought.

Concerning the OP and others who condone hitting dogs. the only reason the dog doesn't growl/jump/pull in the lead etc; again is because the dog is AFRAID of you. Well done :mad:

Also re the whole 'dominance theory' I think this pretty much somes it up: Dunbar focuses on discounting the myths such training ideas foster. Dogs aren't wolves, Dunbar* says, generations of evolution separate the two animals. "Learning from wolves to interact with pet dogs makes about as much sense as, 'I want to improve my parenting -- let's see how the chimps do it!' " (*Dr Ian Dunbar)

bionic.laura

I'm just in from doing some training with my dog outside. We've been finding the very best way to train him seems to be ignore him when he's doing something we don't want and reward him when he's doing something right.

I don't want to hit or punish him as he's a rescue dog so I didn't want him thinking we might be nasty to him. Him being afraid isn't any good. He learns better with praise and treats than with negative reinforcements.

Dhaga

Personally I think there's nothing wrong with what the OP has stated. He doesn't abuse the dog, he just uses a more forceful approach to training the dog. I would do the same.

I play with my dog by pushing him around and holding him, does that make me an abuser? The dog likes it by the way, that's why I do it.

Personally, I think abused is determined by the mentality of the person doing it. If they do it to get a reaction out of the dog which gives them pleasure then its abuse. By the way, I don't mean thumping the dog and kicking them, that's way out of line but what the OP has said.

kazza23

As has been said before, there's a difference in rough play, and using shouting, hitting etc. as a training method.

What the OP has stated is that this is how he trains his dog, not plays with him.

boomerang

In my book, abuse is defined by the effect the behaviour has on the recipient, not the mentality of the person carrying out the behaviour.

For example:

A. Person kicks dog because it peed on the carpet. Person thinks this is what you are supposed to do to stop the dog doing this. End result? Dog is physically hurt and now apprehensive around its owner.

B. Person kicks dog because it peed on the carpet. Person does this because he is totally ticked off with the dog and thinks the little bugger deserves it. End result? Dog is physically hurt and now apprehensive around its owner.

By your logic, example A is not abuse, but example B is...

Dhaga

From his post he doesn't use hitting as a training method. He hit the dog softly once. Hardly a training method and that was because it bit him.

I think people are making too much of how he trains the dog. He doesn't abuse the dog, from what I gathered in his post, he just uses a more forceful approach to training it.

Also, if someone hits a dog and feels awful for it and doesn't do it again does that mean its abuse? People can abuse in ways that wouldn't have a clear effect on the animal, its not always physical. Therefore the behaviour of the recipient can not always be an indicator.

I agree that the behavior is part of it but so is the mentality of the person behind it.