Nokia N96 with DVB-H receiver

v10 · 17-11-2008 05:38PM #1

I just got my hands on a Nokia N96 which has a built in DVB-H receiver. Is this any use in Ireland at all ? Will it be in the future ? If not where (in Europe) is it of use ?

Cheers.

v10 · 20-11-2008 10:52PM

Does nobody know the answer ?

CR 7 · 20-11-2008 10:56PM

http://www.dvb.org/about_dvb/dvb_worldwide/

2012 according to this.

slegs · 21-11-2008 12:47AM

v10 wrote: »

Does nobody know the answer ?

O2 ran a trial last year. I believe there are plans from BCI to issue a DVB-H licence in 2009. Not likely to be a service if ever until at least 2010

scath · 21-11-2008 12:57AM

In short the answer to that is, the dvb-h trial has ended here which 02 and 3 Ireland conducted last year. So no coverage I know of now.

ComReg have a consultation on this point at the moment on citywide licenses to see if there is interest. DVB-H would be the lead contender if it proves interest in the response to the consultation of the standards for mobile TV. This would be a city wide license envisages as only enough spectrum for that and not for nationwide before ASO. So earliest 2010 sometime, expanding nationwide from 2012. Depends on the switchover if it will be phased in from next year in tandem with DTT rollout or big bang in September 2012. http://www.comreg.ie/publications/comreg_consults_on_spectrum_for_mobile_tv.584.103119.p.html This is where use of DVB-H for DTT would have been handier but then timing for ad breaks on mobile and big TV would be different audience needs, and more spectrum efficient to use DVB-T.

Also DVB-H2 may be looked at by then also following on from DVB-T2 which is now being validated by ETSI following finalisation by DVB.

Sparky2201 · 21-11-2008 01:39PM

I don't think 3 ran any DVB-H trial in Ireland - I believe it was just O2. In any case, there is no DVB-H network in Ireland currently that you can receive service from. I think that Christmas 2009 is the earliest one could be available subject to ComReg awarding a licence.

watty · 21-11-2008 03:49PM

It's dubious that DVB-h will ever launch now as you can get cheap GSM phone with DVB-t.

Next year the DVB-t phones will have MPEG4.

DVB-h presumes there is a real market for €10 a user per month Mobile TV. There isn't. People will stream their home TV/Video if at all. Unless you commuting by Bus/Train at a time when interesting programs on, what's the point?

An Archos type device or pocket Digital TV (4.3" to 7") makes more sense and doesn't need DVB-h.

Currently there is no DVB-h in Ireland and no-one has plans to start. DVB-t took over 7 years from when licence was made available and it's not a public service yet.

Sparky2201 · 25-11-2008 09:17AM

watty wrote: »

It's dubious that DVB-h will ever launch now as you can get cheap GSM phone with DVB-t.

Don't agree with this Watty. What content will be available in Ireland on DVB-T that could be viewed on a mobile? - the PSB mux channels with maybe one or two unecrypted Boxer channels (and I don't imagine these will be compelling!). If you want the rest, how do you resolve the CA problem on a mobile? Also, just how good is reception of DVB-T on a mobile - I know the DVB-T network is designed for portable grade indoor coverage but the size of an internal antenna is small!

"DVB-h presumes there is a real market for €10 a user per month Mobile TV. There isn't. People will stream their home TV/Video if at all. Unless you commuting by Bus/Train at a time when interesting programs on, what's the point?"

It's hard to know what the price will be when the T&Cs of the licence are unknown. Do you really believe many people will stream their home TV? They will need to ensure they have a good data plan from their mobile phone company!

"An Archos type device or pocket Digital TV (4.3" to 7") makes more sense and doesn't need DVB-h."

Agreed. It will be interesting to see how successful they are.

"Currently there is no DVB-h in Ireland and no-one has plans to start. DVB-t took over 7 years from when licence was made available and it's not a public service yet."

I feel your pain re. the speed of the various regulatory bodies! However, there may well be plans to start once there is clarity on the sprectrum licence and that includes whether it will even be DVB-H! - we'll have to wait and see.

reslfj · 26-11-2008 12:58AM

Sparky2201 wrote: »

Don't agree with this Watty. ....

"DVB-h presumes there is a real market for €10 a user per month Mobile TV. There isn't. ..."

It's hard to know what the price will be when the T&Cs of the licence are unknown. .... includes whether it will even be DVB-H! - we'll have to wait and see.

The only business model that has shown even some small success is - FREE - and that does NOT pay for investment in and running a DVB-H network.

The Mobile 3.0 DVB-H joint-venture in Germany has just closed and returned their license.

Besides DVB-H is an outdated standard - Both MediaFLO (:() and DVB-SH is very much better.

DVB-H does not stand a chance - unless stupid politicians will force its implementation. :mad::mad::mad:

There will be a DVB-SH service in large parts of Europe - from next year I think - it is technically better , but who both can and will pay to view 'mouse-tv' - very few it seems.

But in Germany the DVB-T mobile phones works better due to the fact that most German DTT uses the more robust 16-QAM modulation with a coderate of 2/3 - most other countries will use the 64-QAM modulation or a coderate of 3/4 or lower power levels or some combination.

Lars

Sparky2201 · 26-11-2008 09:35AM

reslfj wrote: »

The only business model that has shown even some small success is - FREE - and that does NOT pay for investment in and running a DVB-H network.

The Mobile 3.0 DVB-H joint-venture in Germany has just closed and returned their license.

Besides DVB-H is an outdated standard - Both MediaFLO (:() and DVB-SH is very much better.

DVB-H does not stand a chance - unless stupid politicians will force its implementation. :mad::mad::mad:

There will be a DVB-SH service in large parts of Europe - from next year I think - it is technically better , but who both can and will pay to view 'mouse-tv' - very few it seems.

But in Germany the DVB-T mobile phones works better due to the fact that most German DTT uses the more robust 16-QAM modulation with a coderate of 2/3 - most other countries will use the 64-QAM modulation or a coderate of 3/4 or lower power levels or some combination.

Lars

I wouldn't assume that Mobile 3.0 failed because they had a payTV model - the mobile operator consortium lost that licence competition and told Mobile 3.0 where to go when they came knocking - IMHO this only goes to enforce the idea that consideration needs to be given to all players in the value chain - mobile operators, broadcasters, content providers, device manufacturers, consumers etc. If key players are alienated then failure is likely.

I agree that technically FLO and SH have advantages over DVB-H but haven't we seen superior technical standards lose out before? ;-) I think FLO will struggle outside the US. How many devices are supporting SH today?

DVB-SH in large parts of Europe?? - is this using S-Band? If so, you still need a terrestrial network for indoor coverage - and S-Band terrestrial networks aren't cheap!

It might be better to use DVB-H even though it's technically not superior - if it means that we get a successful mobile broadcast TV service. Let's face it, we will have a fantastic MPEG-4 DTT network (towards the end of next year - if we're lucky) - the UK only has an MPEG-2 network but they have had DTT for years! (and I know MPEG-4 wasn't an option way back when - but you get the point!!!)

reslfj · 27-11-2008 10:19AM

Sparky2201 wrote: »

I wouldn't assume that Mobile 3.0 failed because they had a payTV model -

I am sure it was the pay model. At IBC there were more speakers that asked for new business models as nothing but free have worked until now.
The boss of Mobile 3.0 has argued that there should be a ban on DVB-T mobile devices to promote DVB-H - free market ? - free countries ? :mad::(:o:(:mad:

I agree that technically FLO and SH have advantages over DVB-H but haven't we seen superior technical standards lose out before? ;-) I think FLO will struggle outside the US. How many devices are supporting SH today?

DVB-SH in large parts of Europe?? - is this using S-Band? If so, you still need a terrestrial network for indoor coverage - and S-Band terrestrial networks aren't cheap!

MediaFLO has the license for all of L band in the UK for 10+ years for a price about £ 8 million - nothing. But is should not get any chance in Europe.

It will if we start using an inferior standard as DVB-H - sorry to little and to late.

The Mobile 3.0 was only for larger cities in Germany and DVB-SH can reuse the 3G/4G mobile masts and TX antennas. Local GAP fillers are very possible too.
DVB-SH can work nicelely in the UHF band, but why should UHF be used.
In rural areas with few viewers - mobile broadband is likely more efficient.

It might be better to use DVB-H even though it's technically not superior - if it means that we get a successful mobile broadcast TV service.

How should tiny Ireland be successful if much larger countries cannot ?:P Get real!

Let's face it, we will have a fantastic MPEG-4 DTT network (towards the end of next year - if we're lucky) - the UK only has an MPEG-2 network but they have had DTT for years! (and I know MPEG-4 wasn't an option way back when - but you get the point!!!)

But the network in Ireland and the one in Denmark will likely be the last new DVB-T/MPEG-4 networks being built - ever.

That will then leave Norway, France, Estonia, Denmark and Ireland with that standard. Maybe a few multiplexes in Easteurope will use the same.
Sweden will use DVB-T/MPEG-4 for one mux, but expect to use DVB-T2/MPEG-4 as soon as they can get their VHF mux up and running.

There is NOTHING fantastic about DVB-T any more. It is just old and outdated.

Lars

Sparky2201 · 27-11-2008 03:10PM

reslfj wrote: »

I am sure it was the pay model. At IBC there were more speakers that asked for new business models as nothing but free have worked until now.
The boss of Mobile 3.0 has argued that there should be a ban on DVB-T mobile devices to promote DVB-H - free market ? - free countries ? :mad::(:o:(:mad:

So, do you think the mobile operators in Germany said to Mobile 3.0 that unless the service was free, they weren't signing up?? How are they going to make money? DVB-T on mobiles in Germany was a disruptive move - remember the mobile operators did actually bid for the DVB-H licence.

reslfj wrote: »

MediaFLO has the license for all of L band in the UK for 10+ years for a price about £ 8 million - nothing. But is should not get any chance in Europe.

Correction. Qualcomm have the L band licence. I'm not aware of anything mandating them to use it for mobile broadcast TV. How many L band devices are out there?

reslfj wrote: »

DVB-SH can reuse the 3G/4G mobile masts and TX antennas.

Says who? You might find that only a small percentage of these masts and antennas are suitable.

reslfj wrote: »

DVB-SH can work nicelely in the UHF band, but why should UHF be used.

Better coverage with fewer sites.

reslfj wrote: »

How should tiny Ireland be successful if much larger countries cannot ?:P Get real!

I don't know. Why do we have 75% pay tv in the home when other countries do not? Why do we expect terrestrial content form another country as well as our own? Why do the mobile operators here have higher revenues per user than most other EU countries. Why do we have terrible broadband coverage and speeds? Different market conditions apply!!

reslfj · 28-11-2008 05:20PM

Sparky2201 wrote: »

reslfj wrote: »

MediaFLO has the license for all of L band ...

Correction. Qualcomm have the L band licence. I'm not aware of anything mandating them to use it for mobile broadcast TV. How many L band devices are out there?

Yes, Qualcomm is the company that owns MediaFLO and the license. They may use it for something else or not at all.
The point is that the value of spectrum that can easily be used for mobile-TV does not seem to have any significant value.

How many other devices for mobile-TV are out there. Remember DVB-H must have very many more transmitters than DTT DVB-T/T2 to get coverage. There will be a need for a large infrastructure to support mobile-TV anyway.

Sparky2201 wrote: »

reslfj wrote: »

...DVB-SH can reuse the 3G/4G mobile masts and TX antennas. Local GAP fillers are very possible too. DVB-SH can work nicelely in the UHF band ...,too

Says who? You might find that only a small percentage of these masts and antennas are suitable.

Well DVB-SH has been designed with this in mind. The EU-wide allocation of 30 MHz in the 2.2 GHz band supports this.

Take a look at http://www.fub.it/files/Montagna020408.pdf

Page 08 Coexistence
Page 12 Synergy with 3G
Page 13 Performance values
Page 15 Antenna diversity gain

But maybe Page 14 is the most important - Money talks.

Sparky2201 wrote: »

reslfj wrote: »

...but why should UHF be used.

Better coverage with fewer sites.

Why not use one or a few T-DAB VHF channels - with much better signal coverage ?
You forget that a 2 antenna 'Diversity receiver' is not practical for hand-held in the UHF band due to size (nor ofcourse in the VHF bands).
Better receiver antenna gain and 'Diversity' gain makes S band very competitive in most non rural areas.
Take a look at Dibcom's newest chip product.

DVB-H/SH is broadcast - one to many - and very efficient if many watches the same program. But only the 5-10 most popular programs are watched by many within one coverage zone. Mobile broadband - one to one - will be more efficient than DVB-H/SH if only a few watches a particular mobile-TV channel at the same time.

Sparky2201 wrote: »

I don't know. Why do we have 75% pay tv in the home when other countries do not?

ROI to small to get more TV financed by advertising and/or TV-license.

Sparky2201 wrote: »

Why do we expect terrestrial content form another country as well as our own?

Because you can and you can even understand the language. This is the norm in most border regions.
A better question could be "Why is Irish TV not part of Freeview and Freeview not available in all of the island or Ireland?"

Sparky2201 wrote: »

Why do the mobile operators here have higher revenues per user than most other EU countries. Why do we have terrible broadband coverage and speeds? Different market conditions apply!!

Small market, lack of price transparency and competition. (and a few hills - here and there)

But I still doubt that even DVB-SH or DVB-H2 will work in any other way than 'Free'

Lars

Nokia N96 with DVB-H receiver

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