The Santa Clause*

Eglinton · 26-11-2008 12:16AM #1

A short time ago, my meandering thoughts found themselves mulling around the subject of childrens' fantasies and the facilitation of such by adults.

Here's the scenario:

You're discussing the possibility of having children at some stage in your life. Your atheism is highlighted by whomever you're talking to, who proclaims that, seeing as you're not going to ask your kids to believe in god, then you may as well not make Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy a part of their lives either.

I would whole heartedly disagree and here's why -

Children have incredible imaginations which probably helps in developing their thought processes. The real world is too complex to comprehend at first so they need 'easy answers' to fill the void. Santa Claus et al provide the perfect solution whilst also keeping them entertained. As the children grow older, they begin to question the viability of said beings thus developing their critical thinking ability. By the time they're say, 10 or 12, they should have figured out the reality of the situation and have attained a healthy level of sceptism of anything they're told from there on; including religion. So Santa is a very useful concept for Atheist parents.

What do you think?

Galvasean · 26-11-2008 12:18AM

Most kids figure out Santa isn't real before age ten. They just don't want to admit it in case they won't get presents anymore.
I say roll with it and let them have some fun.

Zillah · 26-11-2008 12:24AM

Deeply flawed because of two assumptions:
1 - That children cannot comprehend reality.
2 - Initial dellusion is required to develop critical thinking.

I would disagree with both of these.

MrPudding · 26-11-2008 12:24AM

My 10 year old still apparently believes in santa. I actually genuinely believe she does. Funny enough she thinks god doesn't exist, no proof. go figure.

MrP

Zillah · 26-11-2008 12:28AM

I'd like to see people try and ride the bike Jesus brought them

The Bollox · 26-11-2008 12:32AM

Zillah wrote: »

I'd like to see people try and ride the bike Jesus brought them

why would Jesus give YORE MA as a gift?

robindch · 26-11-2008 12:32AM

Eglinton wrote: »

By the time they're say, 10 or 12, they should have figured out the reality of the situation and have attained a healthy level of sceptism of anything they're told from there on; including religion.

Sadly untrue. Take a look at the Other Forum, where, every day, grown men and women regularly point out how strongly they believe what are obviously fairy(*) stories. And that's on the reasonable side of the church. Things are a lot weirder across the aisle where the JC's of this world manage to turn the outer recesses of imagination into something so dumb, it's amazing.

Anyhow, Santa doesn't come with a lot of stories and a priesthood, telling people in sepulchral tones that they'll have their toenails pulled for all eternity if they don't believe what they're told to believe. I wonder what would happen if there was...

(*) not stories about gay people, of course. That'd be silly.

Doctor DooM · 26-11-2008 12:33AM

MrPudding wrote: »

My 10 year old still apparently believes in santa. I actually genuinely believe she does. Funny enough she thinks god doesn't exist, no proof. go figure.

MrP

If you think about it there is more evidence for Santa- he keeps giving her stuff!

condra · 26-11-2008 12:43AM

Haha yeah. I just thought that. "There is more evidence of the existence of Santa than there is of God."
I like it. :P

Anyway, the subject of wether or not the Santa delusion is harmful to kids, is one that I haven't given much thought, being childfree myself.

As an x-Christian, I think my former theism did me much more harm than my former Santaism.

pH · 26-11-2008 12:55AM

Bringing up kids (in Ireland today) who didn't believe in Santa might make life awkward for their friends, you mightn't be the most popular parent at the school gates for December.

Believing in Santa seems fairly harmless, and isn't that much more than a lot of fantasy "make believe" that kids engage in which is encouraged by adults - this seems to be part of the joy of childhood.

That said, millions of kids have wonderful childhoods without believing in Santa, so not having Santa wouldn't be the end of the world if a parent decided against it.

Galvasean · 26-11-2008 12:55AM

MrPudding wrote: »

My 10 year old still apparently believes in santa. I actually genuinely believe she does. Funny enough she thinks god doesn't exist, no proof. go figure.

Fanny Cradock · 26-11-2008 12:57AM

robindch wrote: »

Sadly untrue. Take a look at the Other Forum, where, every day, grown men and women regularly point out how strongly they believe what are obviously fairy(*) stories. And that's on the reasonable side of the church. Things are a lot weirder across the aisle where the JC's of this world manage to turn the outer recesses of imagination into something so dumb, it's amazing.

Anyhow, Santa doesn't come with a lot of stories and a priesthood, telling people in sepulchral tones that they'll have their toenails pulled for all eternity if they don't believe what they're told to believe. I wonder what would happen if there was...

(*) not stories about gay people, of course. That'd be silly.

I don't see why you are scoffing. By your own admission you once believed in God - and this when you were a grown man.

rockbeer · 26-11-2008 12:58AM

This thread reminds me of the confused devil-worshipper who sold his soul to santa.

Galvasean · 26-11-2008 01:00AM

rockbeer wrote: »

This thread reminds me of the confused devil-worshipper who sold his soul to santa.

dyslexic

orestes · 26-11-2008 01:05AM

Santa needs a book, and to have a few thousand people slaughtered in his name. That way kids won't stop believing in him.

Works for the rest of them

condra · 26-11-2008 01:17AM

LOL Dont sugar coat it, say what you really feel!

MrPudding · 26-11-2008 01:26AM

SDooM wrote: »

If you think about it there is more evidence for Santa- he keeps giving her stuff!

Exactly, can't fault her logic.

MrP

robindch · 26-11-2008 01:31AM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I don't see why you are scoffing. By your own admission you once believed in God - and this when you where a grown man.

I certainly tried hard to believe that god existed since anything else wasn't an option where I grew up. And it takes a lot of thinking, especially if you're doing it on your own, to dispose of the subtle or sledge-hammer indoctrination that people in a position to do so, frequently assume is their duty to supply to kids.

But in retrospect, I'm not quite sure that I could ever say, hand on heart, that I sincerely believed that god existed as anything more substantial than the guilt that arose from my suspicion that he didn't.

Zillah · 26-11-2008 01:55AM

The Bollox wrote: »

why would Jesus give YORE MA as a gift?

Who let the riff raff in?

Sangre · 26-11-2008 02:14AM

Eglinton wrote: »

You're discussing the possibility of having children at some stage in your life. Your atheism is highlighted by whomever you're talking to, who proclaims that, seeing as you're not going to ask your kids to believe in god, then you may as well not make Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy a part of their lives either.

Firstly I wouldn't justify how I raise my children to anyone (except their mother).

Secondly atheism is a lack of belief in god, not everything. How you came to this position is irrelevant, it doesn't matter if it was through reason, logic or spite. Just because you're an atheist doesn't mean you can't have fanciful thoughts.

Thirdly Santa is awesome. I had great fun believing in Santa and xmas is definitely diminished now that my younger siblings are too old to believe. Let the children have their imagination and dreams. Let them have santa, fairies, princesses in towers, talking animals, magical beasts and games of quidditch. If I've raised my children well then I don't need to be the one to tell them they're not real, they can use their own reasoning and critical thinking.

Rev Hellfire · 26-11-2008 08:34AM

Its really only extremists on either camp which seem to get hung up on the Santa thing. Its got a very limited shelf life, all kids come to the realisation as to the truth of the matter. Either via their own discovery or through interactions with out kids.

Now I know some people equate it to a lie to the kids, but they way I look at it is, it's a game parents get to play with their kids for a short while. Both parties get enjoyment from it.

And if you're like me and asked why Santa didn't come to the kids down the road, just say they're bad people and Santa doesn't come to bad people

(That's a joke, I wouldn't do that...)

Zillah · 26-11-2008 08:43AM

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Its really only extremists on either camp which seem to get hung up on the Santa thing.

Yay I'm officially an extremist! Can I declare death sentences now?

Rev Hellfire · 26-11-2008 09:10AM

Zillah wrote: »

Yay I'm officially an extremist! Can I declare death sentences now?

There there, of course you can. I'll even help you build the death camps.

CiDeRmAn · 26-11-2008 09:21AM

Sure we've always used imaginative figures to plug holes in our knowledge, or conversely to create a sense of mystery, Santa is part of the latter, wouldn't childhood be miserable if we were restricted to using only literal truths?
I much prefer to instill a little wonder and magic in my 5 year olds life, with characters like Santa and the Easter Bunny being front and centre.
Time enough for Bill Hicks later!

gramlab · 26-11-2008 12:28PM

Xmas is a bit of harmless fun IMO.

Every year on xmas eve I get to thinking that I'd love to be 5 or 6 again for 24 hours.The alcohol would be a problem though.

rockbeer · 26-11-2008 12:36PM

gramlab wrote: »

The alcohol would be a problem though.

Didn't you enjoy getting drunk when you were 5 or 6 then? :pac:

Dades · 26-11-2008 01:05PM

Zillah wrote: »

Deeply flawed because of two assumptions:
1 - That children cannot comprehend reality.
2 - Initial dellusion is required to develop critical thinking.

Neither of those are a reason not to sell the Santa story to wide eyed kids.

I've yet to hear one, other than it goes against the principles of the adult involved to spin any kind of yarn to younglings. A yarn that offers as much enjoyment to the non-deluded parents involved, at that.

CerebralCortex · 26-11-2008 01:29PM

gramlab wrote: »

Xmas is a bit of harmless fun IMO.

I'm not so sure about that I find it can be very isolating and a lot of pressure is put on people to hold up an idea.

ShooterSF · 26-11-2008 01:50PM

Hmm. Being a young man in my mid20's with no intent to accept monogamy (another of societies wicked inventions) nevermind having kids this never struck me before. If someday I somehow end up with a kid I'd prob let him/her go along with the santa thing. Cant do any harm but how do you seperate his existence from jebus and co as I would never enforce a religion on my child.

Fanny Cradock · 26-11-2008 02:11PM

ShooterSF wrote: »

Hmm. Being a young man in my mid20's with no intent to accept monogamy (another of societies wicked inventions)

Interesting. Care to elaborate?

Dades · 26-11-2008 02:16PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Interesting. Care to elaborate?

He's just read Catcher in the Rye.

The Santa Clause*

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