HIGHER YOU GO, COLDER IT GETS ?

secman · 20-11-2008 4:52pm #1

I'm sure there is a perfectly simple answer to this question, but I just don't get it. In my very simple mind, Sun is a big fire and very hot. So the nearer you get to it the warmer it should be. Down at sea level, we are further away from it, Climb to top of highest mountain, technically you are nearer to it, but the balls will be frozen off you !!!!

In very simple terms WHY ????
simple terms i say to ye.............
Secman

Supercell · 20-11-2008 5:17pm

Keeping it simple..less stuff to heat.
When you're on a beach on a sunny day the sand can get too hot to stand on in yer bare feet, yet the air above it isnt baking you alive.
Now expand that idea to the atmosphere, its thicker lower down..so there's more stuff to heat up..thus its warmer.
In space there's an almost perfect vacuum and thus its close to absolute zero as there's bugger all to heat up there.

Hope that helps

Supercell · 20-11-2008 5:20pm

Btw the first smartypants that posts about inversions gets a ban!!*

*Might not be true.

20-11-2008 5:23pm

temp rises where the UV rays are filtered
it goes up and down.
http://www.windows.ucar.edu/kids_space/profile.jpg

ch750536 · 20-11-2008 9:50pm

All wrong

Time for science guy to put you all straight.

The main source of heat on earth is.... the earth.

The further you go from it the colder you get.

Thats why it only goes a little cold at night rather than -272c.

I pwned snowbie on a weather post. Crack open the champagne!

ch750536 · 20-11-2008 9:52pm

Boy did I get excited there.

Essentially we are sitting on a big radiator. The sun warms it a lot more than it warms us. There is some heating from kinetic energy (stuff trying to get to the centre) and some fusion going on.

Is then simply a case of the further you move from a radiator...

Deep Easterly · 20-11-2008 10:02pm

ch750536 wrote: »

Is then simply a case of the further you move from a radiator...

Then why does it be more frosty and colder at lower levels than at higher at night. Just going by personal experience. I notice that driving my car up a local hill of 80m asl high, the temp will rise by as much as 0.5c, and fall again when I come back down to earth.:)

ch750536 · 20-11-2008 10:05pm

Snowbie will be along in a mo to answer that weather related question.

Zillah · 20-11-2008 10:09pm

secman wrote: »

I'm sure there is a perfectly simple answer to this question, but I just don't get it. In my very simple mind, Sun is a big fire and very hot. So the nearer you get to it the warmer it should be. Down at sea level, we are further away from it, Climb to top of highest mountain, technically you are nearer to it, but the balls will be frozen off you !!!!

In very simple terms WHY ????
simple terms i say to ye.............
Secman

The air is thinner the higher you go, so it traps less heat. Also, you're not really closer to the sun. It's a bit like walking east for three paces and then saying you're closer to Las Vegas. That's how far away the sun is in comparison to how high a mountain is.

nacho libre · 20-11-2008 10:33pm

Deep Easterly wrote: »

Then why does it be more frosty and colder at lower levels than at higher at night. Just going by personal experience. I notice that driving my car up a local hill of 80m asl high, the temp will rise by as much as 0.5c, and fall again when I come back down to earth.:)

are you sure that not because the strain your lada is under trying to get up the hill. maybe it gives a false reading when you reach the top

20-11-2008 10:40pm

ch750536 wrote: »

All wrong

Time for science guy to put you all straight.

The main source of heat on earth is.... the earth.

The further you go from it the colder you get.

Thats why it only goes a little cold at night rather than -272c.

I pwned snowbie on a weather post. Crack open the champagne!

wrong

the earth is only warm because of the sun

so the source of the heat IS the sun.....not the earth
caught on a technicality

Zillah · 20-11-2008 11:09pm

I probably should have said West but the metaphor still works I suppose

:pac:

Deleted User wrote: »

wrong
the earth is only warm because of the sun
so the source of the heat IS the sun.....not the earth
caught on a technicality

No that's not true, geological activity definitely generates heat independently of the sun. Not sure if it has any real impact on the climate but it's not true to say the sun is the only source of heat.

Danno · 20-11-2008 11:40pm

Alot of the above answers are correct. But one has to truely comprehend the movement of air and the properties of heat combined.

For starters...

DEEP EASTERLY - Pat comments about the night time when he drives up a hill and the car thermometer rises 0.5c. At night, the air usually falls more still than during the day. Heat will always rise. So heat radiating from the ground will rise and cold air will fill the lower ground. However, after a prolonged length of time the difference becomes minimal. i.e. at 8pm on Dec 1st (assuming a high pressure cell is nearby), your garden reads -2c, and the local hill at 300m reads 0c. This is because the valley heat from the day is still moving upwards towards outer space. At 5am there would be little (say 0.2c) or no difference because all the heat from the day has drained out into space.

ZILLAH - Makes a very vaild point. The density of air in upland and mountain areas is much less the higher you go (ever climb a really high mountain and find it hard to breathe?) Less dense air holds less moisture and less heat, therefore on a normal day, Killarney could read 10c while Carrantouhill would read 3c at 2.00pm.

Now, as for inversion. Inversion occurs in deep winter where a very high pressure cell, say 1040mb or higher sits right over Ireland. This means that the weight of the air (or atmosphere) over head compresses itself. A cold layer sits from sea level up to around 200m and warmer air will exist as a layer from roughly 200m to 1000m above the ground. Lack of wind caused by high pressure forbids mixing of air and usually fog forms between 50m and 200m to define the boundary between the layers of air. The sunshine can "burn" off this boundary when it's at its strongest between 11am and 3pm.

Geological activity bears no effect really except beside volcano or guyeser areas. However, these activities do have a role to play, perhaps more significant than we realise to the climate of our oceans and seas.

Hope this is of help.

ch750536 · 21-11-2008 12:12am

As a subscriber to BBC focus magazine I have to correct all of you.

Mountains are colder than lower ground, because the Sun heats Earth from the ground up. The Sun's radiation travels through the atmosphere to the ground, where Earth absorbs the heat. Air closest to the Earth's surface is, in general, warmest (see lapse rate for details). Air as high as a mountain is poorly warmed and, therefore, cold.[10] Air temperature normally drops 1 to 2 degrees Celsius (1.8 to 3.6 degrees Fahrenheit) for each 300 meters (1000 feet) of altitude.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain

Must be worth 40 points in the weather leagues.

Most of the internet is wrong on this one. Trust me.

21-11-2008 5:38pm

Danno wrote: »

DEEP EASTERLY - Pat comments about the night time when he drives up a hill and the car thermometer rises 0.5c. At night, the air usually falls more still than during the day. Heat will always rise. So heat radiating from the ground will rise and cold air will fill the lower ground. However, after a prolonged length of time the difference becomes minimal. i.e. at 8pm on Dec 1st (assuming a high pressure cell is nearby), your garden reads -2c, and the local hill at 300m reads 0c. This is because the valley heat from the day is still moving upwards towards outer space. At 5am there would be little (say 0.2c) or no difference because all the heat from the day has drained out into space.

Thats in high pressure.
In low pressure or ordinary in between pressure, if theres a cold air source streaming over the country of course that doesn't apply.
It will apply if the air is still while the cold sourced air is still there - or any auld still air actually.

Thats how it snows on high ground at night*

*Gerry murphy didn't tell me this

Snowbie · 21-11-2008 9:19pm

secman wrote: »

I'm sure there is a perfectly simple answer to this question, but I just don't get it. In my very simple mind, Sun is a big fire and very hot. So the nearer you get to it the warmer it should be. Down at sea level, we are further away from it, Climb to top of highest mountain, technically you are nearer to it, but the balls will be frozen off you !!!!

In very simple terms WHY ????
simple terms i say to ye.............
Secman

This is a simple question but really without a simple answer as there are several answers and which most have been covered.

One visual example we can tell the temperature decreases with height is mountain peaks and the snowline. This is the melting and freezing level of water or 0C. When i said visual this is a clear day, by night the foothills of the mountain can be as cold or colder than the summit. This is due to cold air sinking as cold air is denser than warm air and thus 'sinks'.

The Earths atmosphere is very complex. It is divided into several layers and sub layers.

Weather is experienced in the Troposphere up to a height of 10 to 12km over Ireland, lower at the poles and much higher at the equator. In this layer the pressure decreases with height(overall and air thins) and generally the temperature too but to a point and when it reaches a sub layer called the Tropopause. This is betwen the Troposphere (Weather layer) and the Stratosphere. Temperature steady out and then rise in the Stratosphere. The anvil of a CB(thundercloud) flattens out when it reaches the Tropopause and Stratosphere as the temp increase creates a lid and stops convection.

At 50km asl the temp is much warmer than at 10km. The Stratosphere contains the Ozone level.
Ozone layer absorbs UV and the temp increases in the Stratosphere until the Stratopause where it steadys again and begins to decrease rapidly in the Mesosphere.

The Mesosphere is the coldest part of the atmosphere but not the outer atmosphere. This layer is where we see the meteors streak across the sky as they are burned up either by earth crashing into debris or where fireballs usually they meet their fate (thankfully) here. The energy released(heat) and the very low temps creates the streak, flash and leave the trail in this layer.

The Thermosphere is where we find the highest temps and lowest pressure of all the layers. The Suns UV is turned to heat here and temp reaches over 1500C. There is more sub layers Ionosphere, Exosphere and Magnetosphere (Northern lights appear here) but temps are not a factor.

So basically the temp decreases the higher you go to a point and zig zags hotter, colder as you ascend.

Snowbie · 21-11-2008 9:23pm

Deep Easterly wrote: »

Then why does it be more frosty and colder at lower levels than at higher at night. Just going by personal experience. I notice that driving my car up a local hill of 80m asl high, the temp will rise by as much as 0.5c, and fall again when I come back down to earth.:)

On the clear still nights Pat, the cold air sinks backs down the hillside and can pool in the hollows or lower lying areas. Although the summit of the hill will still be cold, the surrounding area around the foothill can be several degrees colder but also depending on moisture content at lower levels.

Snowbie · 21-11-2008 9:43pm

Zillah wrote: »

No that's not true, geological activity definitely generates heat independently of the sun. Not sure if it has any real impact on the climate but it's not true to say the sun is the only source of heat.

Yes your correct, we are all living on a huge magnetic reactor below the surface which generates alot of heat.

This is not enough to alter the climate on this planet or warm us up. In fact it can do the opposite in the form of eruptions.

Mt.St Helen's Volcano erupted in the early 80s in the US, although a lateral blast, sufficient amount of dust and ash went into the atmosphere and decreased the temps globally. Ireland had a very cold period in January, was this due to that eruption or contributed to the severe cold even moreso??

Mt.Pinatubo(spelling?) in the Philippines erupted in the early 90s, this could also have contributed to the low temps worldwide and here also around that time.
Eruptions due to an internal heat source can also lead to regulating the temps globally with the ash clouds reflecting the UV away from earth.

Then we have the Oceans and the currents. We all know about the gulf stream on this island which creates a temperate climate for Norway and most of NW Europe even though we are at high latitudes.
The currents transfere heat around the planet and regulate the temperatures on this planet. The Oceans absorb the heat from the sun and the process begins. With one current shutting down(day after tomorrow stuff) the link is broken and things will naturally cool down in one place but heat up in another. Ireland becoming Tundra while the Sahara more temperate in theory.

But also there is another temperature regulator on this planet and a very important one in the form of dangerous cyclones. These Hurricane, Cyclones and Typhoons transfere regulate temperatures in the atmosphere and also over water. They kinda balance things up and keep the process flowing.:)

Snowbie · 21-11-2008 10:05pm

As i mentioned earlier about the different layers in the atmosphere, the Troposphere where we live and where the weather occurs, the temperature can be lower at the surface than at height. In the form of weather fronts.

Lets talk about the polar front, a polar front is a cold front that originates in more northern latitudes and moves south. This is a division between very cold arctic air(N hemisphere) and tropical air from the south. When the two meet and very regularly over Irish soil, not only do they produce some intense rain and embedded thunderstorms, it also has a huge range in temperature in the troposphere at the meeting point. The cold air from the north undercuts(sinks) and forces the warm air to rise. The temperature if you are unfortunate enough to be stuck under this front can be much lower at the surface than the temperature at 1000 feet before the ascendancy in height will match surface and eventually fall again.

This is also true of a warm front meeting cold air when cold air is in place already. With warm fronts you notice the cirrus type clouds well in advance of the front(about 500miles) As the moisture is starting to override or sliding over the dense cold air, the moisture creates clouds.

Cirro, alto and eventually stratus at the passage of the front. From the alto clouds precip can fall into the cold layer below and produce freezing rain. At the surface level the temps can be below or well below freezing with temps nearing the nimbostratus clouds before the passage lower than at height.

Again just a few more examples as not always at height it is colder than the surface.:)

secman · 24-11-2008 11:14am

Thanks all for the vey interesting views, definitely got a lot of grey cells working there ! Thanks Snowbie for the graph and the explanations attached, in essense too simple a question !
Hopefully ye all got something from buffing up on that one.

Thanks

Secman

ch750536 · 24-11-2008 4:13pm

If the sun were directly responsibe for 'most' of the heat around us (note directly) then at night the temperatures would drop to around -272c. The fact is that nighttime best reflects the temperature of the radiator we are all sitting on.

Lets take the north pole for example and make a few assumptions.

1. The temperature is always -30c.
2. Sunlight never falls within 100miles of the north pole.

Given the above, you can rule out the direct heat from the sun die to rule 2, meaning that the earth itself generates about 242 kelvin (in that example) as their is no other heat source.

You can make this more realistic if you like, but the truth is that a large proportion of the heat we feel and live in is either generated from the earth or absorbed and stored by the earth, rather than directly.

Second point. The earth has a crust, therefore it must be cooling. If it is cooling, it must be losing heat. If it is losing heat, it is losing it through the crust. Basic physics there.

Third point, spacemen are cold in space and need protecting from the harsh coldness, even when in full view of the sun. Now if one were to take his suit off, he would get cooked by the radiation of course, but if he didn't, he would freeze at about -160c, the affirmed temperature when in the suns gaze from space. This would not occur if the sun directly heated us.

So, to summarise, we are on a big blob that generates some heat itself, as it has a crust. At night it does not go cold. In space, it is cold even in daylight. Therefore, the main source of heat must be planet earth, this would mean that the further you travel from PE the colder you would get.

Like going on top of a mountain.

HIGHER YOU GO, COLDER IT GETS ?

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