Garda seek permission 2have browser history

Biggins · 10-11-2008 01:22AM

Whats next?
Everything we read is going to be recorded?
Every libary book we take out is going to be logged with the government?
Every item we purchase is going to be logged?
Every TV station we look at, every radio station we listen to, is going to be noted?

The above might be an extreme case but the doors that allow the above, have been opened.
Think not? Just look at America.
Already books loaned/bought are logged with the FBI/NSA in America.
All net and phone use is recorded. All emails are intercepted.
Items bought are logged alone by "Club cards"
Satellite stations (and thus government) can tell what individual users are watching because we are all switching to digital as with DAB Radio which is coming in as well! (So no more watching/listening to Al-Jazeera)

Obama has recognised the USA has gone too far and is revoking some of the intrusive privacy laws soon after becoming president.
We are not at that stage yet. If only because we are lax and too silent in protest at this latest attack on our individual rights.

Ireland wake up!

Nick_oliveri · 10-11-2008 01:36AM

Biggins wrote: »

Ireland wake up!

This will more than likely be passed, and not many will give a shiite.
Just like the Data Retention law for Europe in effect now, that was a door, it was opened and like it was then, these discussions of outrage on boards or anywhere else are minimal and a formality.

No internet petition will do squat, discussion here wont do nothing. There has to be another way, a more vocal way.

T-shirts maybe.

Biggins · 10-11-2008 01:49AM

Nick_oliveri wrote: »

...T-shirts maybe.

Aye, saying "I want my privacy back!" :mad:

...or something like these: http://shop.cafepress.com/privacy

CantGetNoSleep · 10-11-2008 02:30AM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Source?

You should always back up your posts with links.

Why?

Do you think links make your bullsh1t more believable?

javaboy · 10-11-2008 08:29AM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Source?

You should always back up your posts with links.

RTDH's found a new protégé.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Forget about any encryption, "what you make they can break" Remember the squiggle guy that had his image decrypted?

That's not really encryption though. Also that photoshop 'squiggling' effect is lossy which is a bit useless in an encryption scheme. Notice how the restored images are imperfect.

Biggins wrote:

PGP is the only one at the moment that encrypts info/data at a higher rate than is possible to uncrypt.

That's just wrong in so many ways.

10-11-2008 09:14AM

javaboy wrote: »

That's just wrong in so many ways.

pgp is ridiculously fast at encrypting......

javaboy · 10-11-2008 09:18AM

Deleted User wrote: »

pgp is ridiculously fast at encrypting......

Yes that's true. It doesn't make the original statement I disagreed with any less false though.

Dragan · 10-11-2008 10:44AM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There would be a national outcry if we woke up in the morning and found that all our personal letters were opened and sellotaped over with a Garda stamp, "Sorry, we had to open your latters to inspect them for "terrorist and criminal activity" it is all for your benefit and in the interest of national security". Opening and snooping through your personal "electronic letters" is no different as it is just an up to date version of the old snail mail.

I commend Vodafone for bringing this to the light of the Irish Times.

If they follow in the same paranoid footsteps as the UK and US authorities bloody right we should be concerned. It may not be such a threat now but put a beggar on horseback and he’ll ride to hell, God knows what else they will want to know about us.

They are only looking to keep web urls. The companies would store these anyway for billing purposes. I can only assume the Gardai are requesting a longer time frame that they be kept for. Highly unlikely that will fly with the operators.

10-11-2008 11:00AM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There would be a national outcry if we woke up in the morning and found that all our personal letters were opened and sellotaped over with a Garda stamp, "Sorry, we had to open your latters to inspect them for "terrorist and criminal activity" it is all for your benefit and in the interest of national security". Opening and snooping through your personal "electronic letters" is no different as it is just an up to date version of the old snail mail.
.

I have received several letters & parcels from the US in recent years that have customs stamps on them, no problems but if the goods had arrived damaged - who would have been to blame!

javaboy · 10-11-2008 11:01AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I have received several letters & parcels from the US in recent years that have customs stamps on them, no problems but if the goods had arrived damaged - who would have been to blame!

The government. Everything is the government's fault. That or RFID.

humanji · 10-11-2008 11:02AM

Out of curiosity, does anyone in Ireland actually have a right to privacy? Is it in the constitution?

10-11-2008 11:26AM

humanji wrote: »

Out of curiosity, does anyone in Ireland actually have a right to privacy? Is it in the constitution?

In general NO! most European countries have the principle that you have no rights at all unless there is a law granting you that right!

The US do it the opposite way round, you have the right to do/have anything, unless there is a law prohibiting it, hence some of the silly laws you hear about.

Things like it being illegal to kiss a goose in Chicago in your underpants! (made up one, but there are many real ones equally as silly)

javaboy · 10-11-2008 11:29AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Things like it being illegal to kiss a goose in Chicago in your underpants! (made up one, but there are many real ones equally as silly)

I hate vague laws like that. Is it illegal to kiss a goose that is in your underpants. Or is it illegal to kiss a goat while you are wearing your underpants. At least Chicago is too big to fit in your underpants so that bit's not open to interpretation.

10-11-2008 11:32AM

javaboy wrote: »

I hate vague laws like that. Is it illegal to kiss a goose that is in your underpants. Or is it illegal to kiss a goat while you are wearing your underpants. At least Chicago is too big to fit in your underpants so that bit's not open to interpretation.

Makings of a good lawyer.

Run_to_da_hills · 10-11-2008 11:41AM

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

Why?

Do you think links make your bullsh1t more believable?

Like the recent thread that I posted on the next generation NFC cellular phones that will flood the market next year?

We learn on Friday that the authorities have requested live access to your account so they can watch what you bought, where you bought it and the exact time directly from your service provider. http://www.wiseupjournal.com/?p=633

Get a grip, wake up and quit watching Spongebob :rolleyes:

Gummy Panda · 10-11-2008 11:49AM

realcam wrote: »

Well, then quite frankly you should get yourself informed 'cos you haven't a clue. In the UK every Tom, Dick and Harry can get everything on you these days. For example, you apply for something means tested every local donkey body can get every fkn thing on you. Whether you properly put your bin out on Thursday, whether you were ever late paying your car tax by 2 days. Every fkn thing, and no court order needed. That the kind of society you want to live in?

You keep not worrying too much 'til there's nothing left to worry about.

Or maybe i do have a clue.

I know exactly how the networks work in regards to garda enquiries.

I prefer not to be scaremongering. I won't worry since I don't live in the UK.

/offers tinfoil hat

Boskowski · 10-11-2008 12:05PM

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Or maybe i do have a clue.

I know exactly how the networks work in regards to garda enquiries.

I prefer not to be scaremongering. I won't worry since I don't live in the UK.

/offers tinfoil hat

It's not scaremongering. It's far from it.

First of all you're not living in the UK you say. Right so, that's practically lightyears away from Ireland then is it? Especially since there is very little collaboration between law enforcement bodies in the two countries and Irish governing bodies tend to never take on board anything that was done over there. Also there is no such trend to tighten the net all over the EU, right?

But no need to worry...

And secondly...
It's the fact you may be watched all the time that creates a scared and 'unfree' society. It sets the tone if you like. It must be stopped.

Gummy Panda · 10-11-2008 12:20PM

realcam wrote: »

First of all you're not living in the UK you say. Right so, that's practically lightyears away from Ireland then is it? Especially since there is very little collaboration between law enforcement bodies in the two countries and Irish governing bodies tend to never take on board anything that was done over there. Also there is no such trend to tighten the net all over the EU, right?

But no need to worry...

Yes no need to worry.

You're assuming these departments have infinite resources. Why would they waste money and manpower checking my activity on the net?

We all knew at some stage the internet would become more regulated and law makers would take an interest in it.

In regards to the UK, having suicide bomber terrorist attacks kinda does that to a country.

Organised crime has become more high tech, yet we want to restrain our law enforcement incase they might read my emails or checking my internet browsing history.

/puts on tinfoil hat

Boskowski · 10-11-2008 12:35PM

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Organised crime has become more high tech, yet we want to restrain our law enforcement incase they might read my emails or checking my internet browsing history.

I agree with what you say. Police should be able to act on a level playing field. What's scary is the fact that some people want to enable them to do whatever they like with no controls.

If you need to monitor someones emails and their web behaviour because they are a prime suspect and a judge agrees to that, fair enough. It's like a warrant. On a particular person and restricted to a particular account. Authorized by an independent body (judge) ensuring the adequacy of the temporary measure.

If you monitor emails and communication of an entire population just in case this might be useful some time and make this information available to authorities without controls you are beginning to create an unfree society.
It's that I'm not happy with.

Biggins · 10-11-2008 01:24PM

It boils down to a phrase from the Roman poet Juvenal.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (variously translated as "Who watches the watchmen?", "Who watches the watchers?", "Who will guard the guards?", "Who shall watch the watchers themselves?", or similar.)

Just giving a blank access to do what they want, when they want and to whom, they want leaves a clear and obvious problem. Humans and their biological and physiological nature are prone to possible weaknesses of integrity.
Meaning that the strong can prey upon the weak, bigotry can surface in many obvious and un-obvious forms, hatred, a wanting to better another, etc can culminate in such powers being used for not always the strict way they were intended.

Again, human make-up as it is, with checks and balances in place and not seen to be conducted and/or used, will abuse such a system eventually.
Its in the nature of the beast...

BaconZombie · 10-11-2008 01:59PM

Cross posting but this is important, the OP quoted "suspected criminals" but the letter states "possible future criminal investigations"

BOFH_139 wrote: »

If this does not sound like the Garda Commissioner is trying to get the ISP to do his dirty work illegal and continue turning Ireland into a police state I don't know what does...

DETAILED INFORMATION on the web pages people view will be retained for possible future criminal investigations if telecommunications operators comply with a letter from the Garda Commissioner.

Vodafone executives are believed to have questioned the legal basis under which it could retain this data.

...goes beyond the European Union's data retention directive, which the Government intends to implement as a statutory instrument...

Also accessing data via a secure source can be easily bypassed by the ISP using MiTM attacks and/or Deep packet inspection (DPI), and for anybody who think I'm been paranoid the OZ and US ISP are already doing this. Plus the UK ran a security trial testing DPI without the authentication of the regulated or users.

Nehaxak · 10-11-2008 02:34PM

I've one simple enough bit of input to this discussion and that is...

Who is policing the police (Garda) on this matter and exactly what are the reasons or rationale behind this move to snoop on every member of the publics browsing history ?

Methinks some durty old Garda is looking to find out the best pr0n sites...

Biggins · 10-11-2008 03:10PM

Nehaxak wrote: »

I've one simple enough bit of input to this discussion and that is...

Who is policing the police (Garda) on this matter and exactly what are the reasons or rationale behind this move to snoop on every member of the public's browsing history ?

That is why I made the comments two posts back.

We cannot - nor should not give a person/authority a blank access to do what they feel like doing without absolute clarity and enforcement in relation to moral and legal laws/restrictions.

towel401 · 10-11-2008 03:12PM

BOFH_139 wrote: »

Cross posting but this is important, the OP quoted "suspected criminals" but the letter states "possible future criminal investigations"

Also accessing data via a secure source can be easily bypassed by the ISP using MiTM attacks and/or Deep packet inspection (DPI), and for anybody who think I'm been paranoid the OZ and US ISP are already doing this. Plus the UK ran a security trial testing DPI without the authentication of the regulated or users.

recently i seen the scumbags at Meteor actually changing the contents of packets to disable email encryption. there is a way around it but its fairly scummy of them.

ejmaztec · 10-11-2008 03:45PM

They've come a long way since I saw a guy with ear-phones up a telegraph pole at one o'clock in the morning when I left a pub in North Kerry years ago. Soon afterwards a shipment of guns got grabbed off the coast.

PixelTrawler · 12-11-2008 08:46PM

Jay D wrote: »

maybe it's just to cover areas they already aren't covering.

It is a breach of human rights but the thing about it is, if you are doing nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about. It is putting a stop to filesharing maybe sometime soon.

Stay away from childporn though.

This tired old arguement is nonsense. Its not a matter of legality and what you are up to. Its a matter of privacy. And its more basic then that, its respecting the individuals right to privacy.

Not everything you do online is sensitive because its illegal, it may simply be something confidential and private such as legal financial details, or medical searches that could reveal conditions (its very common for people to google things they suspect they might have like cancer etc) and are no-ones business except their own.

Perhaps the user is seeking narcatoics or alcohal dependence sites, or has been abused and is look for ways to deal with it.

So next you have to assume you trust the Gardai to have this data and to protect it from being leaked, lost or hacked into - something i would have my doubts about. You also have to assume the Gardai wont abuse this data (there are rogues in every organisation).

Something seems terribly wrong to be hoarding data for crimes that may be commited in the future.

Garda seek permission 2have browser history

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