Cervical cancer vaccine program scrapped

tallaght01 · 05-11-2008 07:55PM

Aw, there's very little investment in preventative healthcare for men in Ireland. That's most definitely NOT a Harney priority.

Dragan · 05-11-2008 08:00PM

luckat wrote: »

Am I the only one who suspects that if it were bóllock cancer the government would rush to provide the vaccine?

LoL, yeah, because the drive to inform men about possible health issues and then support them is even close to what it is for women in Ireland.:rolleyes:

shellyboo · 05-11-2008 08:03PM

cuckoo wrote: »

I'm just throwing out there the idea of personal responsibility.

A healthy diet with lots of fibre lowers people's risk of colon cancer, but the government doesn't give us free boxes of weetabix.

The HPV vaccine does not LOWER the risk of cervical cancer, it ELIMINATES it in 95% of cases. We're essentially talking about a cure here.

Stheno · 05-11-2008 08:07PM

cuckoo wrote: »

For those not on the medical card, then there should be tax relief on the cost of the vaccination.

There is, currently you can claim tax relief on the cost (approx. €600) at the rate of tax you pay, from 2009 it will be tax relief at 20%.

tallaght01 · 05-11-2008 08:08PM

shellyboo wrote: »

The HPV vaccine does not LOWER the risk of cervical cancer, it ELIMINATES it in 95% of cases. We're essentially talking about a cure here.

Yea, but look at the numbers.

If we had a vaccine that cured Joubert's syndrome, should we give it to every woman for free?

tallaght01 · 05-11-2008 08:09PM

nouggatti wrote: »

There is, currently you can claim tax relief on the cost (approx. €600) at the rate of tax you pay, from 2009 it will be tax relief at 20%.

Is the vaccine going to cost 600 yoyos??? :eek:

Bottle_of_Smoke · 05-11-2008 08:17PM

cuckoo wrote: »

/pulls on my contentious opinion hat

Should the government be providing the vaccine at all?

Contagious diseases such as measles, etc are public health issues, and I believe vaccination is vital.

But....the HPV virus is contracted through sexual activity. We choose to be sexually active (by and large, let's ignore rape and sexual assault for a moment).

If we choose to be sexually active, shouldn't we pay for the vaccines ourselves? If parents want their children to get the vaccine, shouldn't they pay for it?

This is utter bullsh*t, most people have lost their virginity by the time they've heard of HPV/cause of cervical cancer. "Mom I want to have sex will you buy me the cirvical cancer vaccine?" Cop on.

There is an element of personal responsibility - we wouldn't buy a car from a garage and then assume it'll run for years and years without a mechanic ever looking at it, without checking the tire pressure ourselves and topping up the oil and petrol.

So, why should the government be responsible for our bodies? Cervical screening has been available for years (albeit at a price, which could be claimed against tax/partially claimed from health insurance). I'm assuming medical card holders had free screening.

More nonsense. It needs to be taken well before we start paying tax. You can't expect children to take this POV. AFAIK it costs about €300, or at least did, hopefully someone can clarify

We now have a free screening program - so, now the trip to get a smear text won't cost us anything, bar the petrol if we drive there.

Cancer isn't just a matter of life or death. Treatment can leave you infertile, never mind the stress. Can't believe you're taking this attitude, take it you're male? Try explain to the girl who gets diagnosed, "well you didn't have to pay for the diagnosis....."

Stheno · 05-11-2008 08:18PM

tallaght01 wrote: »

Is the vaccine going to cost 600 yoyos??? :eek:

It's 600 yoyos if you get it privately, I was looking into the one that has been tested on women up to 45, can't remember the name, and the doctor told me the cost is 600 yoyos

Macha · 05-11-2008 08:21PM

tallaght01 wrote: »

Well, you'll get what you pay for. If you literally chop people's salaries in half overnight they will leave the health service. I know I would. I've never taken a penny of private healthcare money in my life and have no intention of ever doing so. But, altruism doesn't pay the mortgage. It's a naive and unworkable solution, that would result in the people who have cervical ca not having any consultants left to treat them.

If you want to improve healthcare, the you can't just shift ( a relatively small amount of) money from one area to the other. Wrecking tertiary healthcare to benefit primary healthcare is not the answer here.

Ok I didn't say anything about chopping people's salaries in half-you just pulled that out of the air: strawman.

But look at this ob/gyn job vacancy. The starting annual salary is over €173k and specifically states that it is a 37 hour/week job as well as being added to an on-call rota.

http://www.publicjobs.ie/cand/JobDetails_eng.asp?JobID=3653&hdnGUID=&hdnJobID=2342&sgDest=JOBLISTING

As a comparison, my boyfriend used to work in an IT consultancy job, where he did rota shift work that went from 7am-8pm, did an on call rota, 40 hour/week and was paid €35k/year. He also bore a lot of responsibility for big external clients worldwide whose entire telephone networks could crash if he messed up. Now, it's not saving lives but he was paid a fifth of the consultant's starting salary?? Plus they benefit financially from the free use of clinics?? Insanity. Why isn't even €150,00 enough? what exactly do these people need €200k for? It's obscene.

But what's even more obscene is the attitude of some consultants that this is "mickey mouse" pay:
http://www.finfacts.ie/finfactsblog/2007/04/irish-hospital-consultants-mickey-mouse.html

tallaght01 wrote: »

Is the vaccine going to cost 600 yoyos??? :eek:

Cancer treatment is hugely expensive-why want until it gets to that stage?

shellyboo · 05-11-2008 08:21PM

tallaght01 wrote: »

Is the vaccine going to cost 600 yoyos??? :eek:

Yes indeedy.

http://www.irishhealth.com/index.html?level=4&id=10394

tallaght01 · 05-11-2008 08:22PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

This is utter bullsh*t, most people have lost their virginity by the time they've heard of HPV/cause of cervical cancer. "Mom I want to have sex will you buy me the cirvical cancer vaccine?" Cop on.

More nonsense. It needs to be taken well before we start paying tax. You can't expect children to take this POV. AFAIK it costs about €300, or at least did, hopefully someone can clarify

Cancer isn't just a matter of life or death. Treatment can leave you infertile, never mind the stress. Can't believe you're taking this attitude, take it you're male? Try explain to the girl who gets diagnosed, "well you didn't have to pay for the diagnosis....."

BUt parents make choices that affect their kids longterm health all the time. You are aware of that aren't you?

I mean, we couild describe a whole lot of things if you wanted. But I think that would be a bit tedious.

But I would imagine most people are familiar with the concept of parents doing things for the long term good of their kids?

Nevyn · 05-11-2008 08:26PM

tallaght01 wrote: »

Is the vaccine going to cost 600 yoyos??? :eek:

To get it privately yes, that is the going rate.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 05-11-2008 08:27PM

tallaght01 wrote: »

BUt parents make choices that affect their kids longterm health all the time. You are aware of that aren't you?

I mean, we couild describe a whole lot of things if you wanted. But I think that would be a bit tedious.

But I would imagine most people are familiar with the concept of parents doing things for the long term good of their kids?

STIs are still a major taboo issue in this country, add on the cost of €600 how many are going to take it up?

Has the added bonus of preventing 90% of genital wart viruses, being the most common sti surely that + all the cases of cervical cancer warrant this being rolled out?

I see your point about how we can't vaccinate unless a certain number are likely to contract. Perhaps the government should provide say 60-80% of the cost.

Redpunto · 05-11-2008 08:29PM

I would pay 4 times that amount on my child if there was a chance it would prevent her from getting cervical cancer.

Just to clarify, do the girls need to get it before having their first sexual experience??

tallaght01 · 05-11-2008 08:29PM

taconnol wrote: »

Ok I didn't say anything about chopping people's salaries in half-you just pulled that out of the air: strawman.

But look at this ob/gyn job vacancy. The starting annual salary is over €173k and specifically states that it is a 37 hour/week job as well as being added to an on-call rota.

As a comparison, my boyfriend used to work in an IT consultancy job, where he did rota shift work that went from 7am-8pm, did an on call rota, 40 hour/week and was paid €35k/year. He also bore a lot of responsibility for big external clients worldwide whose entire telephone networks could crash if he messed up. Now, it's not saving lives but he was paid a fifth of the consultant's starting salary?? Plus the free use of clinics?? Insanity. Why isn't even €150,00 enough? what exactly do these people need €200k for? It's obscene.

But what's even more obscene is the attitude of some consultants that this is "mickey mouse" pay:
http://www.finfacts.ie/finfactsblog/2007/04/irish-hospital-consultants-mickey-mouse.html

Cancer treatment is hugely expensive-why want until it gets to that stage?

I'm not saying that we shoudn't pay 600 yoyos. I'm saying that it's obscenely pricey. And it is.

Being a consultant obstetrician is a dreadful job. That's why we can't get them. They work horrific hours. You can talk about a 37 hour week, plus an on-call rota. But a consultant obstetrician will be constantly called in from home to deal with emergencies.

Most of them work about 60 hours/week. That's about 50 euro an hour. It's an extremely stressful job. Trying to pull a baby out of a mum when it's heart rate is dropping and he's stuck in the birth canal is horrific. I always break out in a sweat watching it,a nd I'm not the one doing it! Better antenatal care has decimated our child mortality rates. Obstetricians are a huge part of this.

I really struggle verbalising the sheer stress of being an obstetrician. But i wouldn't do it for even 500k per year.

Plus most obstetricians have one or 2 court cases hanging over their head at any given time, from people accusing them of being responsible for a baby's death or disability.

You just can't compare that job to IT.

The mickey mouse comment was taken out of context. Even if it weren't, one guy's opinon is just that.

Take away a third, a half or whatever portion of their pay (I presume you want to take away a lot in order to raise this money) and people just will not take that stress in their lives. they'll just go and work privately.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 05-11-2008 08:30PM

Redpunto wrote: »

I would pay 4 times that amount on my child if there was a chance it would prevent her from getting cervical cancer.

Just to clarify, do the girls need to get it before having their first sexual experience??

Fair play. They need to get it before they contract the virus, thoguh it is a very very common sti, invisible and condoms don't do much to stop it.

tallaght01 · 05-11-2008 08:35PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

STIs are still a major taboo issue in this country, add on the cost of €600 how many are going to take it up?

Has the added bonus of preventing 90% of genital wart viruses, being the most common sti surely that + all the cases of cervical cancer warrant this being rolled out?

I see your point about how we can't vaccinate unless a certain number are likely to contract. Perhaps the government should provide say 60-80% of the cost.

I'm not saying for one minute that we shouldn't do it. I'm all for it. In fact, I've actively supported it.

What I'm saying is that a delay of a year or two probably won't be a disaster (though I think those who turned 12 this year and who would have been entitled to it should get it for free when we can afford it).

But if it's scrapped for good I'd be rageing.

Nevyn · 05-11-2008 08:37PM

Redpunto wrote: »

I would pay 4 times that amount on my child if there was a chance it would prevent her from getting cervical cancer.

Just to clarify, do the girls need to get it before having their first sexual experience??

Yes which is why the scheme was to target 12 year old girls along side the rubella injection.

walshb · 05-11-2008 08:54PM

tallaght01 wrote: »

How many lives will you save by spending 9 million abroad? Lots.

I just think that there's got to be another way to get the cash of we're really that despeate to start the programme right this minute.

So it seems that Irish lives mean less than those abroad, is that it?

Because that seems to be what you are saying here.

As far as I am concerned, the Irish government is stealing money from its Irish citizens, like the OAPs and these young girls to fund foreign aid.

If it cannot 'afford' to put aside 9 million for a fantastic initiative here in Ireland and cannot afford to allow OAPs to keep their med cards, then it cannot afford to continually increase foreign aid expenditure, which is what
it is doing. I do not begrudge this aid, but when I hear that Irish people are having to do without vital services and foreign aid increases, then YES, I will ask questions! That's my issue.

That 9 million increase to foreign aid. where did it come from?

It seems that the saving of the 9 million on this vaccine has been 'wisely achieved.'

Bottle_of_Smoke · 05-11-2008 08:57PM

tallaght01 wrote: »

I'm not saying for one minute that we shouldn't do it. I'm all for it. In fact, I've actively supported it.

What I'm saying is that a delay of a year or two probably won't be a disaster (though I think those who turned 12 this year and who would have been entitled to it should get it for free when we can afford it).

But if it's scrapped for good I'd be rageing.

This will be forgotten, economy more than likely won't be any better next year, potentially worse. Now is the time we should be kicking up a fuss

tallaght01 · 05-11-2008 08:59PM

walshb wrote: »

So it seems that Irish lives mean less than those abroad, is that it?

Because that seems to be what you are saying here.

As far as I am concerned, the Irish government is stealing money from its Irish citizens, like the OAPs and these young girls to fund foreign aid.

If it cannot 'afford' to put aside 9 million for a fantastic initiative here in Ireland and cannot afford to allow OAPs to keep their med cards, then it cannot afford to continually increase foreign aid expenditure, which is what
it is doing. I do not begrudge this aid, but when I hear that Irish people are having to do without vital services and foreign aid increases, then YES, I will ask questions! That's my issue.

That 9 million increase to foreign aid. where did it come from?

It seems that the saving of the 9 million on this vaccine has been 'wisely achieved.'

Why just not save the 9 million from, say, not building some new bypass or whatever.

Why should some kid in the congo have to suffer because of the misfortune of his birthplace?

There are definitely minds in Ireland that could come up with an alternative way to save the money.

tallaght01 · 05-11-2008 09:06PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

This will be forgotten, economy more than likely won't be any better next year, potentially worse. Now is the time we should be kicking up a fuss

Worryingly, you could be right. I go the impression that this was apostponement, but the very short official statement says nothing about that :eek:

http://www.dohc.ie/press/releases/2008/20081104b.html

mary harney wrote:

Statement by Minister for Health and Children, Mary Harney TD on HPV Vaccination Programme
04 November

The Minister for Health and Children, Mary Harney T.D. said today (4th Nov. 2008) "The economic situation has rapidly and seriously deteriorated. Public resources, including those for health, are very scarce indeed and will remain so. I have decided that the best that can be achieved in these circumstances is to prioritise funding for the development of the cervical screening programme and treatment services at the eight designated cancer centres, which includes the challenge of funding very expensive cancer drugs. I will not therefore be proceeding with the introduction of a HPV vaccination programme.

"The continuation and expansion of the Cancer Control Programme under Professor Tom Keane remains a priority and funding of €15 million has been made available for this.

"At the moment we are rolling out the National Cervical Screening Programme, CervicalCheck. The Programme will provide free smear tests through primary care settings to the 1.1 million women living in Ireland aged between 25 and 60 years. A successful national programme has the potential to cut mortality rates from cervical cancer by up to 80%."

cuckoo · 05-11-2008 10:54PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

This is utter bullsh*t, most people have lost their virginity by the time they've heard of HPV/cause of cervical cancer. "Mom I want to have sex will you buy me the cirvical cancer vaccine?" Cop on.

More nonsense. It needs to be taken well before we start paying tax. You can't expect children to take this POV. AFAIK it costs about €300, or at least did, hopefully someone can clarify

Cancer isn't just a matter of life or death. Treatment can leave you infertile, never mind the stress. Can't believe you're taking this attitude, take it you're male? Try explain to the girl who gets diagnosed, "well you didn't have to pay for the diagnosis....."

And....this is my cue to bow out of what had been an interesting discussion.

I'm female, btw, I wonder if that means my 'attitude' is more or less valid...

ronbyrne2005 · 05-11-2008 11:09PM

tallaght01 wrote: »

I'm not saying that we shoudn't pay 600 yoyos. I'm saying that it's obscenely pricey. And it is.

Being a consultant obstetrician is a dreadful job. That's why we can't get them. They work horrific hours. You can talk about a 37 hour week, plus an on-call rota. But a consultant obstetrician will be constantly called in from home to deal with emergencies.

Most of them work about 60 hours/week. That's about 50 euro an hour. It's an extremely stressful job. Trying to pull a baby out of a mum when it's heart rate is dropping and he's stuck in the birth canal is horrific. I always break out in a sweat watching it,a nd I'm not the one doing it! Better antenatal care has decimated our child mortality rates. Obstetricians are a huge part of this.

I really struggle verbalising the sheer stress of being an obstetrician. But i wouldn't do it for even 500k per year.

Plus most obstetricians have one or 2 court cases hanging over their head at any given time, from people accusing them of being responsible for a baby's death or disability.

You just can't compare that job to IT.

The mickey mouse comment was taken out of context. Even if it weren't, one guy's opinon is just that.

Take away a third, a half or whatever portion of their pay (I presume you want to take away a lot in order to raise this money) and people just will not take that stress in their lives. they'll just go and work privately.

That specialism obviously aint for you then but theres many hundreds of thousands who like it and don't get stressed.
Anyway, I know we have a shortage of consultants but why don't HSE recruit a load more from Irish "junior" doctors or abroad ? I have seen figures and medical consultants earn far less in all other EU countries yet there aint a shortage of doctors there. I think a consultant in Ireland in current economic climate should not be earning more than EU average for same qualification/position. There are many consultants in public service who only work standard 37hour week (public health, psychiatrists etc) and get 150k a year.

Macha · 05-11-2008 11:25PM

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

That specialism obviously aint for you then but theres many hundreds of thousands who like it and don't get stressed.
Anyway, I know we have a shortage of consultants but why don't HSE recruit a load more from Irish "junior" doctors or abroad ? I have seen figures and medical consultants earn far less in all other EU countries yet there aint a shortage of doctors there. I think a consultant in Ireland in current economic climate should not be earning more than EU average for same qualification/position. There are many consultants in public service who only work standard 37hour week (public health, psychiatrists etc) and get 150k a year.

True, the salary for a consultancy positions in the UK is £73k-£101k or approx. €90k - €125k. I really don't get why we are paying our consultants so much, when other countries don't, especially when these other countries do not seem to have bigger problems attracting staff than here.

It's the same with our politicians - highest paid politicians in Europe.

tallaght01 · 06-11-2008 04:07AM

Our public health consultants get paid about half of what their clinical colleagues get. Our psychiatrists get reasonably well paid, but don't get the early retirement option that they do in most countries that allows for the high rate of mental illness in the profession from what they have to see on a daily basis. Also, psychiatrists and public health doctors are on-call too.

Consultants in Ireland are not paid more than the relative average. The UK pays the lowest, by and large. BUt the UK should not be seen as a shining example of good healthcare. Their cancer survival rates are abysmal. They struggle to attract consultants .

There are not "hundreds of thousands" of obstetricians in Ireland. Go into any labour ward during an emergency to see just how stressful the atmosphere is.
You can argue all day about the pay issue. But, you get the brightest school leavers, and then within that group, you get the brightest of them that make it to consultant level. They work shifts of 72 hours on the troot for up to 13 years to get to consultant level. Then most of them work about 55-60 hours a week making life and death decisions for 50-60 euro per hour, and we're told that's exorbitant? Well, fine, you're entitled to your opinion. That's cool.

The reason it's important, though, in this context, is that any reduction in pay would be almost unheard of. It happened in the UK, and there was a mass exodus to Australia. When this happens, services like those for cervical cancer suffer.

There is no shortage of private work on offer in Ireland. The public sector is the pits. Cancer care in Ireland is stressful and the consultants are overworked. You start telling them their 50 euro and hour salaries are exorbitant and that they're going to have 50k per annum or whatever shaved off their salaries...then watch morale sink even lower and see how many are left treating the current crop of cervical ca patients.

Quiet Lurker · 06-11-2008 09:09AM

As far as I am aware the cost of HPV vaccine is at least €200 per shot (and i did check) , so thats where the 3 shot course cost of €600 comes in. For people on hi rate of tax who are going to do this then move soon as they will get tax relief at 40% but from Jan 1 that will come down to standard rate relief and so would lead to a saving of €120 in 2008 over 2009.

roberta c · 06-11-2008 11:20AM

They were talking about this on today fm earlier, they had some poor guy on talking about how his wife had recently died from cervical cancer, he had to quit his buisness to care for her and now hes raising their 11yr old daughter on his own, is unemployed and doesnt have €600 floating around to pay for her vaccine...

General idea was for anyone who wants to email Minister's_Office@health.irlgov.ie and complain, send pics of daughters nieces etc. and ask why they happened to announce this when on one was looking

Sherifu · 06-11-2008 12:24PM

rte.ie wrote:

The HSE wanted to wait until 2010 to begin the cervical cancer vaccination programme, according to documents released to RTÉ News under the Freedom of Information Act.

The Executive had indicated this view to the Department of Health, before the Health Minister announced in August that the vaccination programme would begin next year.

According to the correspondence, dated 4 August between the Secretary General of the Department of Health, Michael Scanlan and HSE chief, Professor Brendan Drumm, the HSE favoured waiting until September 2010 to roll out the programme.

This date was set to allow the HSE upgrade its information technology and to allow discussions with second level schools and parents about the vaccine.

On Monday the HSE said it had submitted an implementation plan to the Department but at that point, the HSE was unable to identify funding to allow it proceed with the vaccination scheme.

The Government's formal announcement that it was not proceeding with the vaccination programme was made on Tuesday.

Link.

The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing...

panda100 · 06-11-2008 12:33PM

cuckoo wrote: »

Should the government be providing the vaccine at all?

Contagious diseases such as measles, etc are public health issues, and I believe vaccination is vital.

But....the HPV virus is contracted through sexual activity. We choose to be sexually active (by and large, let's ignore rape and sexual assault for a moment).
.

By this logic we should scrap the Hepatitis vaccine for kids too.

tallaght01 wrote: »

I'm not neccesarily disagreeing with you. I'm just pointing out that this isn't quite the disaster it's being made out to be just yet.

I guess for the hundreds of Irish women who will die from cervical cancer in the next 50 years who could have got a simple prick in the arm when they were twelve and been pretty much cured,it is.
I think If we have a chance to save peoples lives from cancer then we should take it, I dont see why we should have to pay for the criminal and fraudelent spending of the goverment and HSE over the last few years.

tallaght01 wrote: »

BUT, if times were tough, and I had to choose what to spend 100 million on over the next decade, I have to say cervical screening vaccines probably wouldn't be my number 1 priority.

In good times, it is well worth it, But it would depend on what we were going to sacrifice. If we spent the money on the vaccines, what exactly would we NOT spend it on?
.

Preventitive medicine has never been a strong priority for this goverment even in boomdom times. I've lobbied for the guts of a decade for them to implement the suicide prevention scheme they promised but ......nothing!
So If that was in the good times and now we're in the bad times,what excatly did the health service get in the good times???

tallaght01 wrote: »

Bear in mind that there aren't that many consultants,
.

Ah herein lies the rub methinks. The fat cat consultant vs hardworking saintly counsultant debate is an intresting one to have but I think its more apt for the medicine and biology forums.

Cervical cancer vaccine program scrapped

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