25,000 people protesting outside the Dail today...

pretty-in-pink · 23-10-2008 12:54AM

phantom_lord wrote: »

over an extra 600 or w/e it is? i really really doubt it. they could just quit smoking, cut back drinking or pick up a weekend job for a while to cover it. a few extra hundred for a college education is absolutely nothing.

Well given most students already work part time to meet the current fees and cost of living, the increase will make a significant different. Now not everyone will be affected, but anyone who finds it hard to make ends meet now, will find it nigh on impossible with a rise of €600, even to me, thats a lot of money.

phantom_lord wrote: »

how so?

The education thing (second and third level), the medical card thing, the income tax thing.....

Corruptedmorals · 23-10-2008 12:57AM

Well actually the main point of the protest was against the reintroduction of FULL fees, people are annoyed at the hike in the reg fee but that pales into comparison with €6k a year.

Dave! · 23-10-2008 12:58AM

Hah, a TV3 reporter commented that most of the OAP's at the protest are voters and FF may suffer in the next general election because of this.

One wonders how many of these people will even be alive for the next General Election :pac:

As for the students, fair play really. But I'm in final year now, so I don't give a sh*t if they bring in fees

muahahaha!!!

DemocAnarchis · 23-10-2008 01:04AM

Dave! wrote: »

As for the students, fair play really. But I'm in final year now, so I don't give a sh*t if they bring in fees muahahaha!!!

Yup, if they want to raise the drawbridge after I'm through thats fine with me!

phantom_lord · 23-10-2008 01:06AM

pretty-in-pink wrote: »

Well given most students already work part time to meet the current fees and cost of living, the increase will make a significant different. Now not everyone will be affected, but anyone who finds it hard to make ends meet now, will find it nigh on impossible with a rise of €600, even to me, thats a lot of money.

it's a tenner a week

pretty-in-pink wrote: »

The education thing (second and third level), the medical card thing, the income tax thing.....

you know tax receipts are way down right?

anonymous_joe · 23-10-2008 01:12AM

Fair ****s to all the students protesting. I was busy and ended up in town too late. Glad to see it went well.

It's not the raise to 1500 students were protesting (though that's going to cause a fair whack of people problems) so much as the plans to institute full fees for students.

gurramok · 23-10-2008 01:17AM

Caoimhín wrote: »

Right, im seriously fooked off over this.

Am i mistaken about this but is it not a fact that 95% of the current over 70 yrs old recipients of medical cardholders will retain their cards?

Is the the new budget regulations not to stop millionaires or very wealthy people availing of free medical care? Imagine Tony O Reilly using his medical card to avail of free doctors visits or medicine?

Rich people would be very stupid to use a medical card.

Can you picture them queuing in A&E for several hours and then thrown on a trolley under the state system?

It's just silly.

For example, Bertie fractured his leg and ended up going to the Mater private, not the public one. He has money like any wealthy person and they will pay top dollar for the quick treatment as time matters when your sick.

Same for the drugs, they will pay to get them. Same for the docs, they will pay for a call-out or even going to the private clinics to be seen pronto.

marcsignal · 23-10-2008 01:21AM

gurramok wrote: »

For example, Bertie fractured his leg and ended up going to the Mater private, not the public one.

that's called a 'convenient' publicity stunt gurramok

Darragh29 · 23-10-2008 01:34AM

If only WB Yeats was alive today, he would not be able to comprehend how his words of 1913 have a greater meaning in 2008, than they had back then...

WHAT need you, being come to sense,
But fumble in a greasy till
And add the halfpence to the pence
And prayer to shivering prayer, until
You have dried the marrow from the bone;
For men were born to pray and save:
Romantic Ireland’s dead and gone,
It’s with O’Leary in the grave.

Yet they were of a different kind
The names that stilled your childish play,
They have gone about the world like wind,
But little time had they to pray
For whom the hangman’s rope was spun,
And what, God help us, could they save:
Romantic Ireland’s dead and gone,
It’s with O’Leary in the grave.

Was it for this the wild geese spread
The grey wing upon every tide;
For this that all that blood was shed,
For this Edward Fitzgerald died,
And Robert Emmet and Wolfe Tone,
All that delirium of the brave;
Romantic Ireland’s dead and gone,
It’s with O’Leary in the grave.

Yet could we turn the years again,
And call those exiles as they were,
In all their loneliness and pain
You’d cry ‘Some woman’s yellow hair
Has maddened every mother’s son’:
They weighed so lightly what they gave,
But let them be, they’re dead and gone,
They’re with O’Leary in the grave.

It's scary how this poem, written back at the start of the last century, describes us perfectly, almost a hundred years later....

Oshare Bones · 23-10-2008 01:43AM

phantom_lord wrote: »

over an extra 600 or w/e it is? i really really doubt it. they could just quit smoking, cut back drinking or pick up a weekend job for a while to cover it. a few extra hundred for a college education is absolutely nothing.

It's the trend and what is to come in the future that troubles people most I'd say. Yeah €900->€1500 this year. What about next year - €2000 acceptable? The following year €2500? Where does it end.. Sooner or later you will push people out of third level.

marcsignal · 23-10-2008 01:50AM

sorry gurramok, got me public and me private mixed up there

when i read your post first 'public' and 'private' were the other way round,and i got all fired up to have a go at that bastard bertie

23-10-2008 02:43AM

I was in college back in 2004 and the fees were 750. 4 years later, they are 900. Next year they are going to be 1,500. Why is it that in 4 years, the fees only increased 150euro - yet in a year they are going to increase 600euro? Especially in a time of such economic downturn.

Xavi6 · 23-10-2008 02:47AM

'Oh noes we have to pay da college fees!!!11!!1'.

Due to our poxy points system I had no real option but to go to private college in order to get my career of choice. That's 4,500 per year before you even start. I worked two jobs during my first two years to help my pay for it. My parents chipped in as well. The point is it can be done by anyone if you bother your arse.

Maybe it's time the HECS system used in Australia is brought in. You get a government loan which funds your college years, then when you get your degree and start working you pay it back bit by bit. Make it that way across the board then no one can complain. Works a charm over here.

Bloody lucky to get away with free education for this long if you ask me.

jill_valentine · 23-10-2008 02:47AM

I can't work any more hours, and I'm already in debt. Fees for me wouldn't mean switching to Lidl for a bit, or laying off the beers. I have nothing else to cut back on.

Fees, for me, would be the end of my education.

Xavi6 · 23-10-2008 03:08AM

jill_valentine wrote: »

I can't work any more hours, and I'm already in debt. Fees for me wouldn't mean switching to Lidl for a bit, or laying off the beers. I have nothing else to cut back on.

Fees, for me, would be the end of my education.

Have you already got a student loan?

jill_valentine · 23-10-2008 03:52AM

Not yet, I'm still looking into it. I worked and saved for a good while, kind of thought I'd be able to manage, but... looking at where I stand now, there's no way. Sigh. Debtlicious.

Xavi6 · 23-10-2008 03:58AM

jill_valentine wrote: »

Not yet, I'm still looking into it. I worked and saved for a good while, kind of thought I'd be able to manage, but... looking at where I stand now, there's no way. Sigh. Debtlicious.

See this is the problem I have, and it's in no way a dig at you. Students in other countries (namely the US and Australia) have to pay thousands and thousands every year, yet never complain. Stick a few hundred in for an Irish student and all hell breaks lose.

Crash · 23-10-2008 04:01AM

Afaik a mate of mine who was in my year, from Belfast, graduated with 19,000 sterling in debt from four years of living in Dublin.

Of course, the big difference is interest rates and repayment times. For instance, got a loan at the start of the summer. Two years previously, when I took one out, I was given a year before repayments started (so as to reach through to the following summer when I could earn enough to repay it) - took out a second loan after paying off the first back in June - Repayments start in January. There need to be properly set up student loans if you expect loans to be the answer. As it stands it just doesn't cut it.

Crash · 23-10-2008 04:29AM

Afaik a mate of mine who was in my year, from Belfast, graduated with 19,000 sterling in debt from four years of living in Dublin.

Of course, the big difference is interest rates and repayment times. For instance, got a loan at the start of the summer. Two years previously, when I took one out, I was given a year before repayments started (so as to reach through to the following summer when I could earn enough to repay it) - took out a second loan after paying off the first back in June - Repayments start in January. There need to be properly set up student loans if you expect loans to be the answer. As it stands it just doesn't cut it.

Oshare Bones · 23-10-2008 04:39AM

Xavi6 wrote: »

See this is the problem I have, and it's in no way a dig at you. Students in other countries (namely the US and Australia) have to pay thousands and thousands every year, yet never complain. Stick a few hundred in for an Irish student and all hell breaks lose.

Yes! That's exactly what we need.. more debt!

Xavi6 · 23-10-2008 04:42AM

Oshare Bones wrote: »

Yes! That's exactly what we need.. more debt!

You'd swear Ireland was the only country experiencing financial difficulties. As I said, students in other countries have always had to pay their way so why shouldn't those in Ireland?

jill_valentine · 23-10-2008 04:46AM

Xavi6 wrote: »

See this is the problem I have, and it's in no way a dig at you. Students in other countries (namely the US and Australia) have to pay thousands and thousands every year, yet never complain. Stick a few hundred in for an Irish student and all hell breaks lose.

It's not the couple of hundred that's the issue - I mean, the couple of hundred sucks, but I can stretch to it. The problem is the considerably more daunting prospect of full-on fees, ie. a few thousand.

And uh... are we really looking to the American education system for ideas...?

I'm being glib, I just mean, what happens in the American or Australian education systems might not be the best solution we can manage here, or the best foundation for a knowledge economy.

Xavi6 · 23-10-2008 04:49AM

jill_valentine wrote: »

It's not the couple of hundred that's the issue - I mean, the couple of hundred sucks, but I can stretch to it. The problem is the considerably more daunting prospect of full-on fees, ie. a few thousand.

A few thousand still pales in comparison to what other first world educations cost.

And uh... are we really looking to the American education system for ideas...? I'm being glib, I just mean, what happens in the American or Australian education systems might not be the best solution we can manage here, or the best foundation for a knowledge economy.

Obviously given the current financial problems it might not be the best time to be bringing in something like this but it does have its merits. For one it will stop those idiots who go to college just for the sake of it (yes there are plenty of them) who push the points for courses up and take the places of those who really want to go there. That's exactly what happened me.

I worked hard for private college as it was my only route to an education. Fees just means others will have to do the same.

Pugwash · 23-10-2008 05:51AM

Regarding the panto indignation which Caoimhín likens the reaction of OAPs to the medical card change, I think he misses the point. The fact is that a pillar of ones retirement security was threatened by the initial cut in the budget. Once confidence was shaken so, it is extremely hard to subdue the kind of malcontent that is thrown up. They are absolutely right to follow through on their protest.

To cherrypick this issue as the sole reason for the demonstrations would also be a bit short-sighted. It must be appreciated that this is not the single, solitary issue which people are reacting to, it is a touchpaper which presented an opportunity and a platform for protest and demonstrate the fact that people have been less than happy with FF for a while.

Negativity bias in politics means that people are affected/motivated to act moreso by a perception of having something taken from them rather than by the incentive of promised benefits. This is the same when the trust factor is constant in both scenarios: that the politician in question will follow through.

As regards students fees, the impact the introduction of fees would have on the quality of education is hard to forecast to be honest with you. There is a lot of mismanagement in colleges up and down the country. Giving them more money to mismanage may not be an effective solution. Fees will, I think, cause prospective undergrads to look outside Ireland for undergrad options, as they and their families realise the costs are on par with UK and european colleges. Intro of fees will cause a decline in student numbers which will make Ireland harder to market for the likes of the IDA and less FDI will be inevitable. With the building industry on the slide, knowledge-based jobs are crucial and key to sustaining our attractiveness to foreign companies is sustaining the quality of our indigenous workforce. Fees could stifle the progression of students to 3rd level and catalyse these scenarios. Year on year, numbers taking the leaving cert are falling, that is a fact. Those thinking 'I've got my degree, I'm alright Jack, raise the fees!', would, I feel, be sorely mistaken. Having vast numbers of students in high quality universities means more companies and more jobs that indeed may not necessarily be fresh graduate jobs.

To be honest, it is good, I feel, to see Irish people protesting. I've had my doubts about the strength of Irish public discourse/civil society as everyone was content to stay rather ignorant while the euros were flowing like wine at a banquet. While in not excellent circumstances, it is something of a remedy to these fears of mine that I'm sure many others had too.

Mahatma coat · 23-10-2008 05:54AM

Australian High Schools - well the state ones anyway - are Idiot/Drone factories, I have had to deal with the product of their eduaton system here for a while now, it pains me, of course they dont see the HECSDebt as a bad thing, they have been drilled tobelieve its a good idea and the only way to do things. most of them are disgusted when I tell them that not only did I not have to spend any money to go to College the Govt actually gave me a grant to feed meself(full of beer). Ireland had one of the more enlightened meritocratic systems when I went, why do they always have to fculk **** up.

Some here has the sig

Irish Govt Motto : If it aint broke, Fix it til it is

Pugwash · 23-10-2008 06:08AM

Yes, parents' aspirations for their kids wont change and rich parents will still coax kids who probably dont really suit college to go anyway. A shift a la the australian and UK scenarios will happen if fees come in. They say that the advent of free college fees brought about the rise of private schools as parents sought to send kids to the best schools to improve chances of getting into college, thereby creating the 2-tier secondary system we have in Dublin and to a lesser extent in the rest of the country. Intro of college fees wouldn't change this back and id imagine people would see paying for secondary and 3rd level as still the thing to do. fees would be prohibitive to many wanting to enter 3rd level and could cause richer/more intelligent students to look elsewhere.

Whatever way you look at it, in the current climate fees would indeed be detrimental without serious improvements in the way which Universities are run.

luckat · 23-10-2008 06:50AM

Xavi6 wrote: »

See this is the problem I have, and it's in no way a dig at you. Students in other countries (namely the US and Australia) have to pay thousands and thousands every year, yet never complain. Stick a few hundred in for an Irish student and all hell breaks lose.

Er, wasn't the poster saying she *worked* in *jobs* to get the fees?

A country that makes education available to the largest number of its citizens is going to be more successful.

A story from the bad old days: neighbours of mine, in a poor area of Dublin, were just above the earning limit to allow their son to get the university grant - father a truck driver for an SME, six kids to support.

So there was no way to get the fees. That boy - very, very bright - went into bar work. So did the other five after him.

The family didn't have the *expectation* that they should go to university, so even though he wanted to go, and certainly had the marks for it, when they couldn't afford it they shrugged and said "Oh, well..."

That's six people who went into - essentially - manual work, all of whom would have been well capable of university, and would have contributed to the country's prosperity.

And don't say that people with enough get-up-and-go would have got the fees somehow. You don't *do* that if it's not in your culture and your expectations to go to college.

If our politicians are stupid enough to close off university to bright working-class people by making it financially impossible, they're making a real attack on Ireland's future.

Xavi6 · 23-10-2008 06:58AM

luckat wrote: »

Er, wasn't the poster saying she *worked* in *jobs* to get the fees?

Which is why I said it wasn't a dig at her and asked whether she has gotten a student loan to help out.

A country that makes education available to the largest number of its citizens is going to be more successful.

A story from the bad old days: neighbours of mine, in a poor area of Dublin, were just above the earning limit to allow their son to get the university grant - father a truck driver for an SME, six kids to support.

So there was no way to get the fees. That boy - very, very bright - went into bar work. So did the other five after him.

The family didn't have the *expectation* that they should go to university, so even though he wanted to go, and certainly had the marks for it, when they couldn't afford it they shrugged and said "Oh, well..."

Exactly - 'The bad old days'.

If he was in that situation now with fees he could get a student loan and pay it back later. Where there's a will...

That's six people who went into - essentially - manual work, all of whom would have been well capable of university, and would have contributed to the country's prosperity.

So you're saying manual work doesn't contribute to the country's prosperity?

And don't say that people with enough get-up-and-go would have got the fees somehow. You don't *do* that if it's not in your culture and your expectations to go to college.

Maybe it should be part of the culture.

Far too many people saunter into college, do next to nothing and come out of it with a piece of paper. Is that helping the prosperity of the country?

If our politicians are stupid enough to close off university to bright working-class people by making it financially impossible, they're making a real attack on Ireland's future.

As I said, bring in the loans system where by you pay it off when you're working. Seperate the serious students from the jokers.

luckat · 23-10-2008 07:39AM

Xavi6 wrote: »

If he was in that situation now with fees he could get a student loan and pay it back later. Where there's a will...

Nope. These people wouldn't borrow. They'd go to work.

So you're saying manual work doesn't contribute to the country's prosperity?

No, I'm saying "from each according to his capacity" - it's a waste for the country when someone who could be a brilliant engineer is instead digging the streets.

Far too many people saunter into college, do next to nothing and come out of it with a piece of paper. Is that helping the prosperity of the country?

Are you saying that these people's laziness is a reason not to educate others?

As I said, bring in the loans system where by you pay it off when you're working. Seperate the serious students from the jokers.

The ability to get into debt doesn't prove either (a) seriousness or (b) the ability to get out of debt again.

Xavi6 · 23-10-2008 07:47AM

luckat wrote: »

Nope. These people wouldn't borrow. They'd go to work.

Then that's a problem with their mentality and nothing else.

No, I'm saying "from each according to his capacity" - it's a waste for the country when someone who could be a brilliant engineer is instead digging the streets.

Same could be said for those who don't get their course when it goes up 50 points in a year because it's deemed the 'cool' thing to do. It's a waste of their ability to have to go settle for second best.

People get shafted every year because of the points system.

Are you saying that these people's laziness is a reason not to educate others?

I understand your point but I think it's important to weed out the jokers.

All you have to do is look at drop out rates to see that people go into things they don't necessarily have a flair for. Fees would have more informed decisions made on courses.

The ability to get into debt doesn't prove either (a) seriousness or (b) the ability to get out of debt again.

Well my idea would be a loan that gets paid once you secure a job with payments that are based on your wage, i.e. proportionate payments depending on salary.

Obviously it would have to be interest free too.

25,000 people protesting outside the Dail today...

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